School Days

[shinta|hikari]

@Yuki - No one ever tried to remove blame from the girls, since it was quite obvious that everyone was at fault to some extent in the whole story. BUT, what a certain someone was trying to show was that Itou was the victim, or deserves less blame than the girls (particularly Sekai) which I believe is plain idiotic.

@Ryll - I dont think Sekai is as devious as you made her seem. She may have done those things with such an intent, but such an intent would probably be subconscious (she wasnt aware herself, at least completely) and caused by her desire to get close to Makoto rather than a premeditated deception.

[MakotoOwns]

Justifying murder though? Damn you people are sick. I have no respect for a guy that tries to weasel out of something he should take responsibility, I hate the notion of females who take no responsibility for their own bodies. I, myself, will likely get a vasectomy in the near future to insure myself against such people. However, you don't see females take the same tact. It takes two to tango, and a female is at far greater risk from a pregnancy, so she should be the sole responsible party. And I would agree with that other guy that Makoto was indeed trying to take responsibility to "make the problem go away." There's a lot of hypocrisy in that alone, because the same kind of people who say that it's a female's body and that it's her responsibility and decision weather or not to abort also like to shift the responsibility onto somebody else when it's convenient. Either you think women are helpless or you think they can take responsibility for themselves, and I know what I think.

As far as the beginning of their relationship? I don't think Makoto did anything wrong either. The point in which he didn't break it off with Katsura is the point in which he started to make some serious mistakes. Sekai was my favorite character near the beginning of the series, but she later proved to be the worst. I'll admit though, Katsura got a lot of bonus points for the ending.

[shinta|hikari]

It takes two to tango, so the responsibility is supposed to be shared. No matter how you look at it, its unfair for any form of responsibility to be pushed to only one party. Its that simple.

Getting a vasectomy or any other "preventive" measure as you would classify them should depend on the person. Females do take such measures as well, such as pills, injections, diaphragms etc. If you are not aware of such things, I really dont know from what jungle you are from.

Making the problem "go away" is never the responsible thing to do. Responsibility is facing something, not running away from it.

Women arent helpless, but they arent all powerful either. Its not really asking for much to have a say on what happens to your body. Itou tried to take that away from Sekai, by coercing her to abort when she obviously does not want to.

Itou started going the wrong way when he slept with Sekai the first time. Everything would have been avoided if he kept it in his pants at that point. I do recognize though, that it was half Sekai's fault at that point for meeting him at the station.

Katsura got a lot of bonus points for the ending? What, for being out of it like a doll, or going insane and killing Sekai? If its the latter you are seriously contradicting your first sentence in your post.

I do understand reprehension towards justifying murder. In that case, I would understand the complaints. However, you and "that other guy" try to defend Itou's actions for what its worth, even relieving him of blame and pouring it all on Sekai. If you had simply said "I think Itou is crap, but I still cant allow murder", no one would have opposed you.

I personally think this killing is justified, since I think that people who do nothing but harm others and the world do not have a place in it, but that is just my 2 cents.

[MFauli]

BUT, what a certain someone was trying to show was that Itou was the victim, or deserves less blame than the girls (particularly Sekai) which I believe is plain idiotic.

About deserving less blame: Obviously.
What we can discuss about ist if Itou is the victim or not.
And if you carefully watched the series, he is....though Katsura is the biggest victim, of course.
Itou was a normal boy, wanted a hot girl, whatever. He was by no means a bad person in the beginning of the show. Then came Sekai, and made him into a not-caring asshole. From her, he learned that it´s ok to fuck other girls though having a girl friend. After Sekai´s training lessons, Itou just couldnt find guiltyness in fucking other girls...it was normal to him, thanks to Sekai.
If Sekai hadnt done anything after the first making contact with Katsura, Itou would have either learned that some girls dont want to be touched that soon, or he would have broken up with Katsura...the end.

All the tragedy took place because of Sekai. So, yeah, im saying, Itou is the victim of the girls (except Katsura) and Katsura is the victim of everyone.

[shinta|hikari]

WTF? Your posts are getting more senseless and irritating each time.

Now you say Itou was a victim? Well, murder victim maybe, but other than that, he is definitely the guilty felon, and everyone else his accomplices.

Sekai MADE him into what he is? That must be brain damage on your part. I dont even want to answer that, but I have to, for the sake of everyone else in this forum who probably cant bear to look at your and your soulmates posts long enough to reply.

Itou was by no means a bad person in the beginning. So is EVERYONE ELSE in this world. A baby cant be a bad person, can it? And everyone was a baby once. Does that make everyone, including thieves, rapists, killers, racists, and SEXISTS, a good person? No.

A person is comprised of the decisions he/she has made throughout their lives. Even with the influence of others (which in this case is debatable, but for the sake of argument lets assume that Itou did change due to such influences), in the end, the person that makes the decisions is oneself. Itou made all the wrong decisions. Let me enumerate, sleeping with Sekai while going out with Katsura, sleeping with Otome while screwing Sekai and going out with Katsura, sleeping with Sekai's bestfriend as a condition to keep an eye on her (while still "going out" with Sekai), sleeping with the twintail girl just because he is horny (whle still "going out" with Sekai), suddenly switching over to Katsura after all of this just because everyone else (except Sekai who got a baby he didnt want) dumped him, making out with Katsura like a bastard in front of Sekai (they could have done this in a trillion better places), and trying to make Sekai abort the baby without her consent. Im not sure if I got them all, but these are choices Itou MADE by HIMSELF. While influence does have a part to play in this, it is still the decisions of the person that determine whether he is at fault or not. If you think that he is guiltless or the victim after this, there is no more hope for you.

EDIT: with how you guys talk, you make it sound like Itou is a sex drone without the ability to think and decide for himself (and consequently is not responsible for his actions, thus guiltless). As a guy, I am seriously pissed off at such an implication, and even more offended that men like you exist.

[Ryllharu]

What at least *I* was saying is that Makoto is not completely to blame for how he became. He's still mostly to blame, but he was just as naive and ill-prepared for a relationship as Katsura. No one is really innocent (again, except for Katsura). Sekai's selfish actions of wanting her own relationship with him caused a lot in the shift of his personality.

Setsuna and Otome keyed off on it. They had both grown to like Makoto from some kindness he had done in the past, but by the time they qualified that lust for him, he had become someone else.

What Sekai did was give Makoto what he wanted. A purely physical relationship. Watching how he treats Sekai after their first "practice" kiss shows that he's only being close to her so he'll get more. His ignorance combined with Sekai's selfish behavior is what gave him the confidence he had to get any girl that approached him.

What Otome did was tempt him again. She just believed that he didn't have anyone else. She did later find he was with Sekai, but was willing to go through with it to have a connection to him. What she did was make him overconfident. After her, Makoto fucked anything that came near him, and wanted it often.

Makoto grew into what he became because of his own naivety and the environment that gave him the misconceptions about what a relationship is. His experiences made him into what he is, playing on his ego, giving him the wrong impression, etc.

Everyone in this series is selfish to some extreme or another. Makoto wanted a free ride, Sekai wanted what she couldn't have, Setsuna didn't want to feel guilty about leaving, Otome wanted her childhood crush, Hikari wanted comfort, Rape-Baka wanted Katsura, and Katsura wanted Makoto and a type of love that only exists in fiction.

Katsura may be the ultimate victim of this series, but even she was not without her own faults.

[Yukimura]

I guess my post was just too long because you two are restating the same things I pointed out about the progression of Itou's personality change. I find it tragic that he became the way he did but I look at it llike an Oedipus situation, he committed this extra heinous crime but he didn't know any better. Of course he should be held responsible for the things that he did, but I don't feel right judging many of his actions evil by the standards of a decent well-informed person, when everything he learned through his experiences with girls told him he wasn't doing anything 'wrong'.

[shinta|hikari]

@Ryll - I wasnt referring to you or yuki for that matter, just the two who seem to want to make Itou the hero/victim he isnt.

EDIT: I think we (at least people with human intelligence) have reached a logical consensus that though blame was on everyone, Itou deserved majority of it.

@Yuki - The problem with the excuse that he didnt know that what he was doing is wrong is the fact that he did seem to know it, but didnt care. He didnt want to expose his relationship with Sekai to Katsura because he knew it was wrong, and the same goes for every relationship (however short) he had. He knew he would have to face consequences should those "incidents" be revealed. Why? Because it wouldnt be accepted by their society and he knew he will be judged because of it (meaning it is "wrong" to do it). What he learned from those experiences isnt the idea that what he was doing is "not wrong", but rather the idea that he can get away with it (which he was doing quite well with until Sekai killed him).

It may be true that Itou didnt know anything about having a relationship with a girl, but he isnt a blank disk that completely has no data on it. Even Sekai was saying that what they were doing is wrong. Isnt that enough of a clue? Heck, he even admits that he is the worst kind of guy (several times I believe). How can he (or anyone for that matter) claim that he didnt know any better if he himself judges himself as "saitei"/the worst? Its just that his sexual urges get the better of his sense of "right". This coupled with his lack of ability to take responsibility for his actions pins him down as one evil, albeit idiotic, person for me.

[MFauli]

Itou was by no means a bad person in the beginning. So is EVERYONE ELSE in this world. A baby cant be a bad person, can it? And everyone was a baby once. Does that make everyone, including thieves, rapists, killers, racists, and SEXISTS, a good person? No.

You really take the easy route, dude.
Yes, noone is what he´ll become later. But it´s a bit different, when a murderer commits murder because of society (how can you change society, you cannot, you have to live with it) or when the one who made you into what you become is by your side. Then you CAN blame this person. And this person here is Sekai.

Itou may be an idiot, but being an idiot doesnt make you evil or makes you kill-worthy. Im repeatng myself, but it all started when Sekai couldnt loosen her grip onto Itou after she brought him and Katsura together. Instead of all the crap she did, she should have left the both of them alone. And we KNOW that Sekai wanted Itou from the very beginning, so it´s not as if she realized she loved Itou AFTER she helped him. She helped him because it was a way to get closer to him.

Im not taking all the blame away from Itou, but being dead, he is the 2nd biggest victim of this series, thanks to stupid Sekai.

[RyougaZell]

Oh yeah... Sekai is to blame because Makoto wanted to fuck Katsura and Katsura didn't want to.

Im currently lazy so I'll just add this... 'You can't help who you fall in love with'.

And yes... everyone is guilty of something in this series. No one is innocent... or rather only Kokoro.

[shinta|hikari]

@Mfauli - You are the one that takes the easy route you idiot. Stop ignoring what I have written down. You probably dont even read the more complicated parts (read my posts about "decision" and "Itou's view of self") because they dont register on your miniscule brain that probably doesnt even function.

Your first argument is downright stupid. Lets just say that what you are saying is "right" (which it definitely isnt even if you turn the world upside down). Then that means that Sekai killing Itou is not her fault, since it was Itou's fault for making her that way by choosing Katsura and forcing her to abort the child. Thus, Itou's death is Itou's fault. And since he was by Sekai's side, you CAN blame him, according to your faulty logic (I dont even want to call it logic, for it deteriorates the word).

Itou being kill-worthy isnt because he was an idiot, but rather because of his actions. Idiocy is a state, and no one deserves death only because of it (though I am having second thoughts about this because people like you are alive), but people who commit actions that harm others deserve to be punished. Granted, some may think that death is a bit too harsh, but that is left to opinion since there is no logical way to conclude it as fact.

And now, I have wasted several minutes of my valuable time trying to prove this stupid argument wrong, for the simple reason that its too idiotic to be left alone. Thanks to stupid you.

EDIT - wanna try activating your reputation?

[Yukimura]

@Shinta: You're right, I had forgotten that Itou recognized and admitted his own wrongness in one of the episodes around the School Festival. With that there's no more doubt that he did possess a normal moral compass at some point and chose to ignore it. I still have to blame Sekai some for facilitating his original cheating, but by the time of the School Festivel he knew that leading Katsura along while cheating with Sekai was not something he should be doing but he did it anyway because it was easier. That's pretty despicable (or pimp depending on how you look at it).

Yet, even with his horrible treatment of other peoples feelings, no high school aged guy deserves to die for shirking social responsibilities. Nothing Itou did would have caused harm if he didn't have the implicit cooperation/trust/support of his victim. He deserved to face consequences for his betrayal of that trust. However, he couldn't hurt anyone who didn't choose to trust him (Otome and Hikari turned out just fine), thus he was not any kind of threat to society at large so I see no justification for his death, other than Sekai's satisfaction that he suffered for what he did to her.

[shinta|hikari]

Well, I would like to posit emotional and psychological damage of the girls (Sekai and Katsura specifically) as reasons for him to be punished. He practically ruined Katsura and Sekai's lives by continuing his cheating ways. With him gone, girls that may befall the same fate in his hands in the future are saved. BUT, I do understand what you mean. Justifying death just because of that is something that a lot of people will frown upon, and probably rightfully so. Even I have to admit that wanting Itou's death is simply a personal wish on my part, and in no way can I say that he deserves to die in an "objective" sense.

[RyougaZell]

Before I try posting them... since the series is over... how about we check the games endings?

Any objections of posting info on them (the available ones at least)

[MFauli]

He practically ruined Katsura and Sekai's lives by continuing his cheating ways.

That´s where you´re just wrong.
You say that as if it was all Itou´s fault that ruined Katsura and Sekai.
Wrong.
Sekai ruined Itou, and as an effect of that Itou did certain things wrong. That Itou acted wrong is clear, but the cause of all is Sekai, no matter how you try to spin this fact.
Instead of insulting me, use the little of your brain to read my above posts. Im not going to repeat myself anymore, so you can read the reasons, why Sekai is at fault, above.

[Yukimura]

The awesome (AKA Bad) endings, I think they've all got English subtitles but I'm not sure as I gathered these a while ago for the MangaTraders forums.

Makoto chooses Sekai - Bad Ending - The Bloody Conclusion (Personal Favorite)
Makoto chooses Sekai - Bad Ending - Eternally
Makoto chooses Kotonoha - Bad Ending - To My Children

The anime contained elements of both Bloody Conclusion and To My Children.

@MFauli: Even if Sekai alone started Makoto down a dark path doesn't mean he should be forgiven for his actions once he became a jerk.

@shinta: His cheating didn't ruin their lives it made them face a hard choice, they ruined their lives by not suppressing their feelings and using their heads to make the choice. Katsura should have walked out on him, but she didn't. Sekai should have done so as well, until she found out she was pregnant (which actually did ruin her life I guess). A good real world analogy would be battered spouses. Of course the abuser should go to jail no matter what, but at some point after continued abuse it starts to become the responsibility of the victim to just walk away. Sekai had a valid reason to want to stay when she discovered her pregnancy but Katsura had none other than her feelings.

[shinta|hikari]

@Mfauli - You dumb fuck. You deserve to be cursed. How can you be so idiotic as to not see the trench-like gaps in your reasoning?

"Sekai ruined Itou" is not a fact, stop saying it like it is.

Itou acting wrong is Itou acting wrong. It is no one else's fault.

I want/have/deserve the right to insult you.

"Use the little of your brain"? That is not even proper english.

Just because you state "reasons" (which are absolutely incoherent) does not mean they are correct.

EDIT: You are technically the most mentally lacking person I have ever encountered.

[RyougaZell]

Katsura's Best Ending is them spending Christmas together.
Sekai's Best Ending is them dancing on the BonFire
Hikari has two endings, one where she already has a child with Makoto. One is called 'Everyone's Makoto'
Otome has one ending... as well as her friends.
Setsuna's ending leaves Sekai and Makoto together and she leaving to Paris.

For those with no youtube (like me...)

Eternally
Sekai and Makoto are in love and decide to confront Kotonoha and tell her about it. Kotonoha handles it very badly, even begging Makoto to "Please date me. I beg you."[2] Afterwards she quietly tells them that they will never be happy together. As Sekai and Makoto leave the apartment, Kotonoha's phone falls and shatters on the floor. They then witness Kotonoha jumping off the ledge of the apartment, landing head first on the pavement. The epilogue shows Makoto in front of Kotonoha's grave: he broke up with Sekai, finished high school and is now working with his mom. He has never had a girlfriend since.

To My Children
In the middle of an H-scene between Kotonoha and Makoto, he tries to comfort her that she is the only one for him, and that Sekai is good for nothing, and that she's only there for him to sleep with. Sekai overhears this and becomes enraged. Six months later, Kotonoha and Makoto are on a walk outside, with her talking about having a baby. When they part, Sekai (now pregnant) appears and stabs Makoto. Even with a knife sticking into him, Makoto speaks calmly. Sekai suddenly becomes terrified at what she has done and runs off. Makoto slowly crawls to a bench, leaving a trail of blood. Makoto later dies.

The Bloody Conclusion
Sekai and Makoto are in love. Kotonoha overhears Makoto and Sekai loudly making love to each other, which in turn emotionally destroys her. The next day as they leave the train station where the three always take, they meet Kotonoha on an overpass beside the station. There is an awkward moment as Sekai lets go of Makoto's arm, greeting her. Kotonoha says a few words, before revealing the saw hidden behind her school bag and swipes it beside Sekai's neck. After a few seconds of realizing what had just happened, Sekai suddenly bleeds like a spray and collapses in a pool of blood, with Kotonoha laughing hysterically, her eyes revealing that she has completely broken down


There is an ending where Makoto ends with BOTH Katsura and Sekai.


And one of my favs that obviously wasn't included...

I'm the Wife
A post-fin episode to the endings "Carnal Desire" and "Bavarois", appears only on certain condition. This episode actually does not have an official title. Above title, "I'm the Wife", is only a nickname among fans. Makoto is at home with his mother and receives a picture and letter from Setsuna from France, showing her standing in front of the Arc de Triomphe obviously pregnant. She writes: I will be giving birth in Japan, so I'll return around the time when you get this letter. Please think of a name. Setsuna"[3]. The doorbell rings and Makoto's chosen lover (Kotonoha in case the ending is "Carnal Desire", or Sekai in case the ending is "Bavarois") comes in, introducing Setsuna to Makoto's mother as Makoto's former classmate if Kotonoha is chosen, or as being her childhood friend if Sekai is chosen. Setsuna promptly introduces herself, "I'm the wife," holding up her pregnancy inoculations booklet and a victory sign.

[MFauli]

@Mfauli - You dumb fuck. You deserve to be cursed. How can you be so idiotic as to not see the trench-like gaps in your reasoning?

"Sekai ruined Itou" is not a fact, stop saying it like it is.

Itou acting wrong is Itou acting wrong. It is no one else's fault.

I want/have/deserve the right to insult you.

"Use the little of your brain"? That is not even proper english.

Just because you state "reasons" (which are absolutely incoherent) does not mean they are correct.

EDIT: You are technically the most mentally lacking person I have ever encountered.

Im so laughing out loud right now ^^
Dude, if you dont have any more arguments, just leave it be.
You´re a elitest feminist, it´s ok (well, it´s not, but anyway).
Just because you hate a characater dont make everyone else hate him.

@Yuki: Right, and i never said Itou was a completely blame-free person. But some people in this thread made it seem as if he was the big enemy of the series. That´s just wrong. He was made into a jerk by Sekai, then kept on doing crap...because he wanted, at this point, but also because Sekai started the mess. So you can blame Itou for what he did after the first 3 episodes, but you cant blame him for what happened at the beginning.

[RyougaZell]

Lets re-phrase then...

Hyphotetically (sp?) speaking... It is right for us to beat you up because you gave us enough reasons? no?

Yes. Sekai is wrong killing him. She is wrong by letting Makoto have sex with her.

But saying Makoto is innocent because Sekai made him like that is just plainly stupid... accept it.

She gave him the push he needed to be the complete jerk he was, wanting only physical relationships and forgetting of feelings. Makoto was trash who probably didn't knew a shit about real relationships since his own parents were divorced.

Ok... delete Sekai from the equation. What happens? Otome goes for him and the cycle repeats. Erase Otome from the equation then what? Setsuna. Go as far as taking her out as well... then? Hikari.

Sekai, who I repeat is NOT innocent in no way, didn't make him that way. HE became that way himself thanks to his own urges and the pushes of the girls.

Katsura as well is no way innocent... she was the one that had less motives to become crazy... and in the end she became the craziest of them all.

EDIT:

Lets add this...

Saying Makoto became like that because of Sekai is like those that say...

'He killed him because he plays violent videogames'
'He is satanic for reading harry potter'
'He violated her because she tempted him'
'He is crazy because he listens to metallic music'

etc....