Makoto fully knew that dancing with a girl in the bonfire (sp?) meant they were together. And at the end he chose Sekai over Katsura for it. True, she was giving him what Katsura hadn't... but thats not the point of this post. The point is showing that he acknowledged Sekai as his girlfriend in front of the school at that moment. Selfish as it may have been after having sex with Otome... but he did.
Alas... he is an idiot. A lucky one, but an idiot.
By the time of the festival dance, Itou already didn't like Sekai anymore. He didn't really acknowledge her. He just liked her more than Katsura, so he promised to dance with her. His favorite girl by that time was already Otome. They just had an "understanding" and Otome let him dance with whoever he wanted, as long as they keep their relationship secret.
Makoto is what's commonly called "a player." It is common knowledge that such people exist, and it is the female's responsibility to make sure she doesn't end up with a person like that. I have no remorse for a female that fails to properly evaluate the value of the person she spreads her legs for. In addition, she has no right to anything just because she got knocked up. The way governments around the world work today is disgusting, and as such that's the status quo, I understand, but it's sick and wrong. Every character in the story made mistakes, and then refused to accept the consequences for their actions. Makoto ended up ostracized for knocking up Sekai and not accepting her child, while Sekai ended up with an unwanted child. The consequences should have ended there, but instead Sekai got greedy and decided that she had the rights to somebody else's love and labor. If you believe for any reason that you deserve the wealth of any other person without any sort of proper agreement, you are a sick violent individual.
How can it be the female's responsibility to avoid "players"? The fact that they are called players (which I still doubt Makoto is) means that they decieve women into getting into a relationship with them under false pretenses (like the lie that the player will be faithful to the girl, which obviously wont happen since he is a player).
So you are saying that it is the woman's fault for not being able to see through this facade? I absolutely agree that they are culpable to some extent, but the greater fault lies in the person that initiated the problem in the first place, in this case Makoto and how he went after Sekai (who consistently resisted, at least at first) even if he and Katsura were already going out.
Makoto wasn't ostracized because he didnt accept the child. He was ostracized because he is a "player" as you call it (proven by the gossip conversations that can be heard when he crossed the hall in episode 11) Indeed, this part of his character was revealed due to Sekai's declaration, but the fact that he was hated because of it is because his actions reflected his character (this includes the exposed affair with Otome, which no decent person would find good).
Any sort of proper agreement? They did have an agreement, even if its wasnt on paper. Makoto, though he never said it outright, was technically going out with Sekai (since he never denied it either, even if he knew Sekai and everyone else thought it was so). So technically, Sekai does deserve his "love and labor", since she gave her love and labor to him with the premise that it will be returned. What does Makoto do instead? He makes out with Katsura in front of the girl he made pregnant, and THEN messages her to abort the child. That is enough to make anyone snap.
If you think that all things in this world should be based on your definition of "proper agreement" (whatever that is), then you are a sick and violent (if only morally) individual.
EDIT: Oh and speaking of rights, you say that Sekai doesnt have the right to anything just because she got knocked up. Well, that is very contentious so I wont even respond to that, but I will ask you this. What gives Makoto the right to get Sekai pregnant and just throw her away like garbage when he doesnt want the child?
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Thu, 10-04-2007 at 12:05 AM.
Peace.
You sure you aren't someone already registered trying to back himself up ?Originally Posted by MakotoOwns
This kind of comments are disgusting... sure, Sekai was also at fault for sleeping with him even knowing he was still with Katsura... but she has no right to make Makoto be responsible? COME ON!! So you say it is right to fuck around and leave them when pregnant because THEY allowed it to happen?
The world is like it is because thoughts like this are irresponsible... Makoto acknowledged Sekai as his girlfriend at the bonfire... and Sekai isn't Virgin Mary to get pregnant by the grace of the Holy Spirit... Makoto is the father, and as such has to be responsible... doesn't want to be with her? ok... get a fucking job and pay for all expenses the child will bring... don't take the easy way and suggest to abort. Abort is for cowards...
Sekai should not have killed Makoto... she should have castrated him...
PS: Katsura is a crazy bitch...
She really should have..... And katsura is one hell of a sexy bitch.You sure you aren't someone already registered trying to back himself up ?
Sekai should not have killed Makoto... she should have castrated him...
PS: Katsura is a crazy bitch...
And that´s where you´re completely biased towards the girls´ point of view.
Makoto NEVER went after Sekai. He wanted Katsura, Sekai, out of the blue, helped him to get her, which was a sucess.
It should have ended here.
But not with Sekai. She decided that cannot let go of Itou, so she makes up weird reasons for training lessons and such. It was AFTER THAT, that Itou wanted more "training lessons". Then everything got out of hand.
It´s really sick how all or even the major fault is tossed towards Itou, when Sekai´s the one who started the mess. Without Sekai, Itou wouldnt have gotten into contact with Kiyora. He would have had a nice relationship with Katsura and Kato wouldnt have had a chance. Following that, the 4 bitches wouldnt have had a chance either. The result: Itou and Katsura loving each other peacefully.
But then comes Sekai. She makes Itou wanting her. Kiyora wants her best friend to be happy, so she gets involved. Itou is in between conflicts, thus getting attracted by Kato. Then things get out of hand with all the drama and the 4 bitches join the game.
In the end, Sekai´s at fault and she does a horrible crime. Whoever wants to blame Itou is just sick and a elitist feminist.
OMG, what anime were you watching you stupid fool?
Itou ASKED for Sekai's help. Obviously, she was also at fault for what happened, having given in to her emotions, but Itou was the one that practically hounded her until she slept with him.
Sekai repeatedly resisted Itou's attempts to betray Katsura, but there is only so much she can do considering she was in love with him for quite a long time. Indeed, she eventually gave in, but if Itou just listened when Sekai told him to stop (which she did numerous times), NOTHING would have happened.
Sekai did indeed start the mess (when she tried to get Itou and Katsura together), but that was not out of any malice or wrongdoing. If it werent for Sekai, Itou wouldnt even have talked to Katsura.
Itou and Katsura loving each other peacefully? Do you have blackholes instead of eyes on your skull? Itou was already discontent with the fact that Katsura wasnt letting him touch her. It doesnt take Sekai's intervention to ruin something that was doomed in the first place.
I am not biased towards a girls point of view, and I think that much is obvious to anyone with an IQ of higher than 0, or yours. You are just a crazy chauvinist that seems to pride himself in being an idiot.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Thu, 10-04-2007 at 02:52 AM.
Peace.
Haha, great, finally calling me a chauvinist ^^
And no, Itou didnt ask Sekai for help. At least NOT for Sekais "training lessons". It was Sekai who all of sudden got Itou to touch her, everything in the name of "training lessons".
The fact that Itou was unhappy about Katsura being shy could have either solved by Sekai telling Katsura what her boy friend desires OR she just could have let everything go downhill from here on. That way, Itou and Katsura would have broken up properly and Sekai could have started her work on Itou.
And yeah, if Sekai wasnt, Itou would have never met Katsura...and everything would have been fine. Kato would have asked Itou for the dance and they´d have become a pair.
That post was simply idiotic. Like I said before, Sekai didnt mean anything malicious or wrong when he tried to get Makoto and Katsura together. She even tried to cut of all ties with Makoto after the swimming scenario.
Sekai DID try to help Itou and Katsura get on the right track. The training sessions were a bit too much, but other than that, she gave good advice, and if Itou listened to them and hadnt run to her apartment that rainy night, maybe Itou and Katsura COULD have lived happily ever after. Still, this is merely pointless speculation, like everything you just said on the last post. The point is, with everything that HAS happened, the majority of the fault lies in Itou and his irresponsible foolishness.
You seem to want to blame Sekai no matter what, and I really dont understand why. It is obvious that your arguments are stretching the limits of human stupidity, so I am almost forced to conclude that you are a monkey that learned to type.
Peace.
This posts make me think MFauli and MakotoOwns are the same user...
No one else believes Makoto to be an innocent little boy seduced by the mob of women...
Even is Sekai had decided to not get involved...
Otome would have STILL gone after Makoto, since she hated Katsura and loved him since Junior High.
Setsuna would have TRIED to approach him since her best friend wasn't and she had no restrains for friendship.
Hikari would STILL be sad because the other guy didn't like her and would have ended up with Makoto.
It's safe to say that almost no one in this series was innocent, except for maybe Katsura before she went batshit insane.
Makoto: Wanted a one-sided physical relationship without any responsibility. He was too stupid to know what he was supposed to do in a relationship, and got cocky when Sekai (later on, any girl) made any kind of advance on him.
Sekai: Obviously wanted Makoto. She made Setsuna switch seats with her from the beginning of the year, so she could get closer to him. Then when she saw his cellphone picture, she saw a way to ingratiate herself to him. Briefly worked behind their backs to destabilize Makoto and Katsura's relationship under the guise of improving it. She gladly accepted the idea of "training" Makoto so she could get a fleeting taste at what being his girlfriend would be like. Makoto took all the initiatives after that.
Setsuna: Liked Makoto, but was more concerned about Sekai's happiness as she knew she was leaving sooner or later. Her intentions were always in making sure Sekai would be happy, but she did betray her just once in an attempt to make Makoto do as she wished.
Otome: Kind of a bitch in general. Denying that Katsura could ever be Makoto's girlfriend (a perception Makoto aided by never admitting he formally still was) Otome did everything she could to make sure that she'd become his girlfriend, or at least have sex with him. Pride perhaps was her biggest fault.
The three bitches: Quick to follow Otome's guidance, and equally quick to go behind her back.
Hikari: Wanted the rape-pervert-idiot, but betrayed Sekai on her rebound.
The tragedy in this story is what Katsura became. The events all perpetuated by these above drove her to insanity. Makoto is perhaps the center of it all, but he didn't fall entirely on his own. He was pushed by Sekai's one moment of weakness, thinking up the "training" to get a taste of what she had given up to Katsura. After that he did it all on his own. After he begins to lead all the events, Sekai loses control and also becomes a victim, but of her own creation.
I wonder what happens when Setsuna hears about what resulted...
She will probably try to kill Katsura if she finds her anyway.. But I guess Katsura will be dead by then
Too bad Summer Days was a spinoff instead of a sequel...
Would been good to get it animated with Setsuna as main character and getting revenge... nah... wouldn't work without the other 3 characters. Like Oyabin said, Katsura most probably died alone in the sea (hopefully)
I still believe a better punishment for Makoto would have been castration...
I strongly agree.. Itou got off easily by dying.
I just finished watching the H scene from the original game.. I must say that Katsura is so hot in the game. She has an aura of a shy type maniac girl effect on me. And who would have taught that Itou's close guy friend(don't know his name) is a rapist. oh well same kind of people bond together..
Like Ryllharu said, she wanted to get closer to Itou from the very beginning. It was all just making use of situations to achive that goal. That Itou was an idiot from a certain point on is certainly correct. But he wasnt from the beginning. He was made into what he became by Sekai and other girls.
Even without Sekai's 'practice' Makoto wanted nothing more than having sex with Katsura. This is proven when he tries to takes things to far even when Katsura didn't want to. In the end he was just an inmature kid who only wanted sex. He wasn't made this way by Sekai and the other girls... he himself was already like that.
Irony... he never did sleep with Katsura.
I must agree with Ryllharu and MFauli about Itou. He definately did things that he shouldn't have, but in the end no one is really without blame for the final actions of the other charaacters. If you go back to the beginning and look at the characters you can see how he changed over the course of the show in response to outside influences.
You have a Itou, a guy who knows nothing about girls but has a crush on a girl. Kotonoha, said girl, knows nothing about guys, also has a crush on him. Neither of the two knows the other has feelings for them nor do they know how to or are wiling to pursue their feelings for each other so they remain in stagnation.
Enter Sekai, a third party who also has a crush on the Itou, but she is willing to pursue it. She gets herself into a position to get closer to him but then she discovers he has feelings for someone else. Now instead of backing off and letting Makoto and his crush either find each other or not she resolves to assist him and hook him up with Kotonoha, possibly because she'd rather be his friend than be nothing to him or possibly because she just wanted to make him happy.
The problem was, Itou all hormones and porno mags, while Katsura was all shiny eyes and romance novels. At this point it becomes gray whether to start throwing blame on people, since you could argue Makoto should have known things about women or that Katsura should have known things about men. Personally I wouldn't buy those arguments for the same reasons I wouldn't expect a random high schooler I sat in front of photoshop for the first time to make anything worth being called artwork.
Either way the character changes begin when Sekai perceives that the Makoto/Kotonoha relationship she fostered is on rocky terrain and takes it upon herself to try and teach Makoto how to be a better boyfriend. We can argue she did it purely to try and help their relationship or we can argue that she did it just to be closer to Makoto, but the key point is that she once again meddled in their relationship. She tried to explain how he should act as a boyfriend but he just didn't get it and wanted to skip straight to the touching part (typical). So she decides to try and teach him the proper way to touch a girl who's tentative about it. Again we can't know her motives but we do know that she longed for Makoto in some way.
This is where the blame game really got interesting, Sekai didn't need to do this for Makoto but she chose to, therefore it's natural that she shares the blame for the consequences of her actions. And the consequences were: Makoto got a taste for touching her and became more attracted/attached to her (she was giving him what he wanted) and she got a taste for being touched by Makoto (she was trying to keep her feelings contained but I suspect she quite enjoyed the thought of his attention on her body if not his actual technique). After his 'training sessions' with Sekai, Makoto got it in his head that he could get away with just feeling up girls as long as he did it right and he didn't need to romance them or respect them. That's the example that Sekai was teaching and other than Katsura's stand-offishness that's all Makoto knew. If it hadn't been for the lessons I suspect Makoto would have continued to awkwardly try and do such things with Kotonoha, gotten rejected and eventually either he would have learned to tone it down, she would have given in and just let him do it, or one of them would have broken up with the other.
However, once the mindset shift occurs Makoto's mistakes can no longer be attributed to simple ignorance. The mindset shift happened after Makoto had already expressed his dissatisfaction with Kotonoha so one can still lay blame on him for not officially breaking up with her before pursuing Sekai but to be honest, while it may seem obvious, it's not really intuitive that ignoring someone and treating them like crap is different from actually breaking up with them. Of course this is beside the point because Makoto doesn't just avoid Kotonoha, when he's confronted he claims to still be interested which was just dishonest and it's completely his fault that she was so confused.
As bad as it is that Makoto couldn't see what was right in front of him (Kotonoha wasn't getting the implied breakup message), he was being told by outside sources (Sekai) that what he was doing wasn't right but he stubbornly refused to listen and assumed that things would work out the way he wanted them to anyway. Kotonoha suffered from a similar problem (not getting that he didn't care about her). However, I find it hard to blame Kotonoha for what amounted to lack of experience, obsession, foolishness, and blind trust. She was also being told that his actions implied it was over by people, but he kept stringing her along, unwittingly taking advantage of her trust when he thought he was just sparing her feelings (and sparing himself a scene).
Once theses elements were in place everything was basically just icing on top of the shit cake that was the situation. Makoto, who started out ignorant, got it in his head that feeling girls up without any commitment or emotional attachment was fine (thanks Sekai's emotions). Sekai got it in her head that it was okay for her to allow Makoto to touch her despite the fact that she knew Kotonoha still thought of Makoto as her boyfriend (thanks again Sekai's emotions). And poor Kotonoha became absolutely convinced Makoto was her boyfriend and that he loved her even though this was not the case. (thanks Makoto's lies/indecision).
Last edited by Yukimura; Thu, 10-04-2007 at 12:37 PM.
I was flying through the posts above and I've decided not to wait for Conclave's version anymore. Things seem very interesting o_O
<3 Tessa-chan! <3 Lucifus! ....chotto mate.
Welcome to the darkside...
I am not very happy with m.3.3.w's work, but they at least released. Will probably wait for Conclave to finish their version to burn the series on DVD though...
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
