School Days

[Yukimura]

@Shinta: You're right, I had forgotten that Itou recognized and admitted his own wrongness in one of the episodes around the School Festival. With that there's no more doubt that he did possess a normal moral compass at some point and chose to ignore it. I still have to blame Sekai some for facilitating his original cheating, but by the time of the School Festivel he knew that leading Katsura along while cheating with Sekai was not something he should be doing but he did it anyway because it was easier. That's pretty despicable (or pimp depending on how you look at it).

Yet, even with his horrible treatment of other peoples feelings, no high school aged guy deserves to die for shirking social responsibilities. Nothing Itou did would have caused harm if he didn't have the implicit cooperation/trust/support of his victim. He deserved to face consequences for his betrayal of that trust. However, he couldn't hurt anyone who didn't choose to trust him (Otome and Hikari turned out just fine), thus he was not any kind of threat to society at large so I see no justification for his death, other than Sekai's satisfaction that he suffered for what he did to her.

[shinta|hikari]

Well, I would like to posit emotional and psychological damage of the girls (Sekai and Katsura specifically) as reasons for him to be punished. He practically ruined Katsura and Sekai's lives by continuing his cheating ways. With him gone, girls that may befall the same fate in his hands in the future are saved. BUT, I do understand what you mean. Justifying death just because of that is something that a lot of people will frown upon, and probably rightfully so. Even I have to admit that wanting Itou's death is simply a personal wish on my part, and in no way can I say that he deserves to die in an "objective" sense.

[RyougaZell]

Before I try posting them... since the series is over... how about we check the games endings?

Any objections of posting info on them (the available ones at least)

[MFauli]

He practically ruined Katsura and Sekai's lives by continuing his cheating ways.

That´s where you´re just wrong.
You say that as if it was all Itou´s fault that ruined Katsura and Sekai.
Wrong.
Sekai ruined Itou, and as an effect of that Itou did certain things wrong. That Itou acted wrong is clear, but the cause of all is Sekai, no matter how you try to spin this fact.
Instead of insulting me, use the little of your brain to read my above posts. Im not going to repeat myself anymore, so you can read the reasons, why Sekai is at fault, above.

[shinta|hikari]

@Mfauli - You dumb fuck. You deserve to be cursed. How can you be so idiotic as to not see the trench-like gaps in your reasoning?

"Sekai ruined Itou" is not a fact, stop saying it like it is.

Itou acting wrong is Itou acting wrong. It is no one else's fault.

I want/have/deserve the right to insult you.

"Use the little of your brain"? That is not even proper english.

Just because you state "reasons" (which are absolutely incoherent) does not mean they are correct.

EDIT: You are technically the most mentally lacking person I have ever encountered.

[RyougaZell]

Katsura's Best Ending is them spending Christmas together.
Sekai's Best Ending is them dancing on the BonFire
Hikari has two endings, one where she already has a child with Makoto. One is called 'Everyone's Makoto'
Otome has one ending... as well as her friends.
Setsuna's ending leaves Sekai and Makoto together and she leaving to Paris.

For those with no youtube (like me...)

Eternally
Sekai and Makoto are in love and decide to confront Kotonoha and tell her about it. Kotonoha handles it very badly, even begging Makoto to "Please date me. I beg you."[2] Afterwards she quietly tells them that they will never be happy together. As Sekai and Makoto leave the apartment, Kotonoha's phone falls and shatters on the floor. They then witness Kotonoha jumping off the ledge of the apartment, landing head first on the pavement. The epilogue shows Makoto in front of Kotonoha's grave: he broke up with Sekai, finished high school and is now working with his mom. He has never had a girlfriend since.

To My Children
In the middle of an H-scene between Kotonoha and Makoto, he tries to comfort her that she is the only one for him, and that Sekai is good for nothing, and that she's only there for him to sleep with. Sekai overhears this and becomes enraged. Six months later, Kotonoha and Makoto are on a walk outside, with her talking about having a baby. When they part, Sekai (now pregnant) appears and stabs Makoto. Even with a knife sticking into him, Makoto speaks calmly. Sekai suddenly becomes terrified at what she has done and runs off. Makoto slowly crawls to a bench, leaving a trail of blood. Makoto later dies.

The Bloody Conclusion
Sekai and Makoto are in love. Kotonoha overhears Makoto and Sekai loudly making love to each other, which in turn emotionally destroys her. The next day as they leave the train station where the three always take, they meet Kotonoha on an overpass beside the station. There is an awkward moment as Sekai lets go of Makoto's arm, greeting her. Kotonoha says a few words, before revealing the saw hidden behind her school bag and swipes it beside Sekai's neck. After a few seconds of realizing what had just happened, Sekai suddenly bleeds like a spray and collapses in a pool of blood, with Kotonoha laughing hysterically, her eyes revealing that she has completely broken down


There is an ending where Makoto ends with BOTH Katsura and Sekai.


And one of my favs that obviously wasn't included...

I'm the Wife
A post-fin episode to the endings "Carnal Desire" and "Bavarois", appears only on certain condition. This episode actually does not have an official title. Above title, "I'm the Wife", is only a nickname among fans. Makoto is at home with his mother and receives a picture and letter from Setsuna from France, showing her standing in front of the Arc de Triomphe obviously pregnant. She writes: I will be giving birth in Japan, so I'll return around the time when you get this letter. Please think of a name. Setsuna"[3]. The doorbell rings and Makoto's chosen lover (Kotonoha in case the ending is "Carnal Desire", or Sekai in case the ending is "Bavarois") comes in, introducing Setsuna to Makoto's mother as Makoto's former classmate if Kotonoha is chosen, or as being her childhood friend if Sekai is chosen. Setsuna promptly introduces herself, "I'm the wife," holding up her pregnancy inoculations booklet and a victory sign.

[MFauli]

@Mfauli - You dumb fuck. You deserve to be cursed. How can you be so idiotic as to not see the trench-like gaps in your reasoning?

"Sekai ruined Itou" is not a fact, stop saying it like it is.

Itou acting wrong is Itou acting wrong. It is no one else's fault.

I want/have/deserve the right to insult you.

"Use the little of your brain"? That is not even proper english.

Just because you state "reasons" (which are absolutely incoherent) does not mean they are correct.

EDIT: You are technically the most mentally lacking person I have ever encountered.

Im so laughing out loud right now ^^
Dude, if you dont have any more arguments, just leave it be.
You´re a elitest feminist, it´s ok (well, it´s not, but anyway).
Just because you hate a characater dont make everyone else hate him.

@Yuki: Right, and i never said Itou was a completely blame-free person. But some people in this thread made it seem as if he was the big enemy of the series. That´s just wrong. He was made into a jerk by Sekai, then kept on doing crap...because he wanted, at this point, but also because Sekai started the mess. So you can blame Itou for what he did after the first 3 episodes, but you cant blame him for what happened at the beginning.

[Yukimura]

The awesome (AKA Bad) endings, I think they've all got English subtitles but I'm not sure as I gathered these a while ago for the MangaTraders forums.

Makoto chooses Sekai - Bad Ending - The Bloody Conclusion (Personal Favorite)
Makoto chooses Sekai - Bad Ending - Eternally
Makoto chooses Kotonoha - Bad Ending - To My Children

The anime contained elements of both Bloody Conclusion and To My Children.

@MFauli: Even if Sekai alone started Makoto down a dark path doesn't mean he should be forgiven for his actions once he became a jerk.

@shinta: His cheating didn't ruin their lives it made them face a hard choice, they ruined their lives by not suppressing their feelings and using their heads to make the choice. Katsura should have walked out on him, but she didn't. Sekai should have done so as well, until she found out she was pregnant (which actually did ruin her life I guess). A good real world analogy would be battered spouses. Of course the abuser should go to jail no matter what, but at some point after continued abuse it starts to become the responsibility of the victim to just walk away. Sekai had a valid reason to want to stay when she discovered her pregnancy but Katsura had none other than her feelings.

[Yukimura]

Saying that Sekai is the cause of all this just because she tempted and slept with Itou is a false conclusion, since Itou was half to blame for going after her and screwing her.

I am inclined to believe that if Sekai never helped Makoto with Kotonoha then his initial shyness and ineptitude would have kept them (He and Kotonoha) apart until the crush wore off or high school ended. From that belief (which is based on nothing more than personal interpretation of things not explicitly shown in the anime) it becomes easy to see Sekai as the root instigator of the whole tragedy. It's not like Itou is blameless for his part or that it's all Sekai's fault and no one elses, but when I look for the earliest event that if removed from the story seems likely to avert the final outcome Sekai's assistance kind of stares me in the face.

[shinta|hikari]

Umm, if you read my other post, if you remove the part of Itou placing Katsura's picture on his celphone, such a tragedy wouldnt have occured either. Naturally, that is a foolish assumption and is merely pointless speculation. That is also the case with Sekai's involvement. No one knows what would have happened if she didnt interfere, and no one ever will.

The reaction to this argument will probably be like this: "But putting a picture on a celphone is a completely innocent act, and Itou would never have thought that it will lead to a chain of events that will lead to his death." However, the same can be said for Sekai. Sekai helping Itou out was done without knowledge of what the outcome will be, so blaming such an act (that may have ended in a completely different result) is illogical. This is not as simple as a math equation, wherein removing a factor will produce a clear and predictable result. Using this type of reasoning is the same as saying that : "If Hitler's grandfather didnt marry his grandmother, then the genocide wouldnt have occurred. Therefore, since he did, he is to blame for the genocide." Get the point?

In the first place, Sekai didnt know such a tragedy will befall them from such an act, while Itou should have known that what he was doing is hurting people, since he himself admitted that he is "the worst".

[animus]

They were never fine. Katsura and Itou went on their first date, and Itou was like he's like this i s unsatisfactory, or this is boring or w/e. In other words, their relationship wasn't stable, if at all taking off.

[shinta|hikari]

@Mfauli - you never cease to amaze me. You can apparently dive to new depths of ignorance with each breath.

Anyway, until you refute the criticism against the basis of your argument, talking to an idiot like you any further is a moot point. If you wish to be recognized (because no one does obviously) at least try to PROVE that it really was Sekai that caused Itou to become that way. The greatest thing hindering that is my counter argument (3 posts up), which you have not addressed. Do that (properly of course, with someone else accepting your explanation other than yourself, and your other "self"), and maybe I will even accept your views.

EDIT: Oh, and your speculation about Sekai's thoughts, are just that, baseless speculation. If her goal was to break them apart, she didnt have to resist Itou at all, which she did quite a few times until she gave in due to his persistence (a point that you seem to ignore each and every time). Your speculation about how Itou would have reacted is also baseless. No one, and I mean no one, probably thinks thats the reason why Itou acted coldly, except you.

BTW, Sekai's lessons = Itou becoming sex maniac that cheats on anyone with anyone and Itou's putting a celphone picture of Katsura on his phone(the very first thing that happened) = events that lead to tragedy follow the same logic. Just wanted to point it out AGAIN, since you never seem to address it.

another BTW, being a feminist (well at least the moderate types) is not a bad thing, not that I am one. Being a chauvinist (the term itself being derogatory) is a bad thing though.

[MFauli]

Of course it is baseless, even moreso because it suits your little world of an opionion

because no one does obviously

And dont apply to yourself as "no one", it´s pretty ignorant.

I went in-depth about why Sekai was the start of all the mess. You kept on whining about what an idiot Itou is, what an idiot i am.
If that´s all you have to see, just quit it, but dont emberrass yourself any further, because you clearly dont have a point.

another BTW, being a feminist (well at least the moderate types) is not a bad thing, not that I am one. Being a chauvinist (the term itself being derogatory) is a bad thing though.

Nowadays, being a feminist is just as bad as being a chauvinist. But that´s so off-topic, just no, lol.

[animus]

Hm, this wasn't mentioned by anybody. But as I was watching the scene where Sekai was killing Makoto, doesn't Makoto say "Thank goodness." as he was dying, and a bloody hand on her dress? Did he want to die for all the shit he's done?

[RyougaZell]

It was commented a few pages back.
My personal opinion is that even at this point he was running away, and was relieved to die, so he could escape responsability and pain. A coward to the end.

BTW... seems the private airing of the last episode will have red blood, less flashbacks and more... sounds *shudder*

[Yukimura]

@animus: If you go to the m.3.3.w website the tl admits this was a mistranslation. Itou simply says "Sekai...." and I think grabs her breast one last time.

Lol @shinta|hikari I would really like to read a thread where you logically outline why it's bad to be a chauvinist but not bad to be a feminist. It sounds nice to just say it but I want to see the logical argument.

Anyway,

The reaction to this argument will probably be like this: "But putting a picture on a cellphone is a completely innocent act, and Itou would never have thought that it will lead to a chain of events that will lead to his death." However, the same can be said for Sekai. Sekai helping Itou out was done without knowledge of what the outcome will be, so blaming such an act (that may have ended in a completely different result) is illogical.

My response is simply this, people should always mind their own business unless asked for advice by someone else (life-and-death situations are excluded obviously). If you don't heed that principle and attempt to meddle in someone's life it becomes a two-to-tango situation where both parties share responsibility, the initiator for initiating and the receiver for being letting the initiator affect them. That being said, things like responsibility and blame can be quite abstract since everything has a cause that precedes it. I choose to (arbitrarily) define the initiator of events like these as the first person who made a conscious effort to alter the status quo of the other.

In this case Itou putting a picture on his camera was something he did for himself, so to me no one else shares responsibility for that. When Sekai came along and saw the picture she made a judgment and then chose to say things to Itou based on that judgment. I do not view the fact that Sekai saw the picture that Itou took as a transfer of responsibility back to him because she was not meant to see the picture and it was her choice not to respect his privacy. By acting on information she was clearly not meant to have she becomes responsible for the effects her actions have.

I believe in the legal world this situation would fall under the term liability. I hold Sekai as ultimately liable for the events of the story because of the reasons stated above. A familiar example to many Americans would be the outcome of the OJ Simpson murder trials. While he was found not Guilty of the murders in a criminal court he was found liable for the murders in a civil court. Liability basically means, your had ultimate responsibility for the situation.

As to your call to MFauli to get someone to agree with him that Sekai was the instigator (If I've misinterpreted what you were challenging him to prove then ignore the rest of this post) I have said I did several times already. I hold no special love for MFauli and think he is doing a poor job at arguing his points and has views more extreme than my own. However, he and I seem to share the belief that Sekai has ultimate responsibility for the entire situation, not the specific wrongdoings of any particular character but the situation as a whole. You certainly don't have to agree with that point but if your solution to having more than one person disagree with you is to just ignore the other person and attack the original source more then you're being a poor debater as well.

[RyougaZell]

Yuki... I believe what shinta is trying to prove is that Makoto is in no way innocent, as MFauli stated several times. He stated Sekai was at fault for getting pregnant, and that Makoto was innocent.

Im in no way saying Sekai isn't at fault, since she truly is for meddling, but nevertheless, Makoto is not a lamb, but guilty as well. THAT is what we are trying to do... not find people who agree Sekai is at fault, like I've said, I do believe she is, but to contradict MFauli's statement that Makoto is innocent.

[MFauli]

Yuki... I believe what shinta is trying to prove is that Makoto is in no way innocent, as MFauli stated several times. He stated Sekai was at fault for getting pregnant, and that Makoto was innocent.

Im in no way saying Sekai isn't at fault, since she truly is for meddling, but nevertheless, Makoto is not a lamb, but guilty as well. THAT is what we are trying to do... not find people who agree Sekai is at fault, like I've said, I do believe she is, but to contradict MFauli's statement that Makoto is innocent.

Which i never said.
Great reading skills here, lol.
I said that Itou was innocent in the beginning, not that he wasnt in the middle of the story.
If you think, the whole drama is Itou´s responsibility, then that´s where i disagree. But i never disagreed, that Itou shares blame just like every character in this series.

This argument started because of certain people writing as if Itou was THE person that did something wrong. That´s what i started answering to. That and nothing else.

[RyougaZell]

And what happened to your arguments of:

- Makoto became like that because of Sekai
- It is selfish of Sekai wanting the father of her child to take responsability
- It is Sekai's fault for getting pregnant.

You somehow change your arguments and forget your own points.

Whatever... this is going no where. And there are still 2 more hours before I can leave the office...

[MFauli]

- Makoto became like that because of Sekai

Read everything above.
Sekai is at fault in the beginning, then Itou starts being at fault, thanks to Sekai. Nothing wrong about that.

- It is selfish of Sekai wanting the father of her child to take responsability

Also already discussed. Advising Sekai to abort is a kind of taking responsibility. And then we dont know what would have happened if Sekai got the child and Itou saw that.

- It is Sekai's fault for getting pregnant.

How is it not?
She didnt care about Itou using a condome and didnt care about other safety actions. Sorry, but that´d be the same as if i had sex with a woman that´s infected with AIDS and me, though knowing that, not using a condome. That´s really her fault. I cant even think of how much of a feminist you had to be to spin that point around.