Movie: The Dark Knight

[Jessper]

Okay, so we disagree on there being connections. Now unfortunately for you, in an interview Chris Nolan admits to there being parallelism between the movie and the war.

You'll have to explain what parts because I have a feeling while he may say so you are reading too far into it. The hacking into everyone's phone and all that is far from it, the comics have batman using a system that can spy on anything in the world at anytime, this isn't a new concept. Often in the comics the idea of one person having too much power is brought up in regards to Batman. Hell, Spiderman has that idea going too.

Does he say what parts are paralleled or are you just reading the words and running away with it?

Got something concrete here to work with? Maybe the ideas that have been main stays in comics for decades apply to our current political situation but that doesn't mean they were created for the war.

Edit: haha, found the interview.

So it's not a stretch to look at Gotham and see shades of Baghdad?
Well, where I suppose I would see a parallel is the threat of chaos, which is something we very much deal with in this film. And in today's world, Baghdad is a powerful illustration of that. It's frightening to imagine in one of our own cities.

Oh ya, he is practically saying right here that his movie is a metaphor for the middle east and that Bush is evil. [/sarcasm]

[Carnage]

[QUOTE=Jessper]You'll have to explain what parts because I have a feeling while he may say so you are reading too far into it. The hacking into everyone's phone and all that is far from it, the comics have batman using a system that can spy on anything in the world at anytime, this isn't a new concept. Often in the comics the idea of one person having too much power is brought up in regards to Batman. Hell, Spiderman has that idea going too.

Does he say what parts are paralleled or are you just reading the words and running away with it?

Got something concrete here to work with? Maybe the ideas that have been main stays in comics for decades apply to our current political situation but that doesn't mean they were created for the war.

Oh ya, he is practically saying right here that his movie is a metaphor for the middle east and that Bush is evil. [/sarcasm]

Well for one thing, I never said what exactly they're saying in the movie, so now you're just assuming things.

You'll have to explain what parts because I have a feeling while he may say so you are reading too far into it. The hacking into everyone's phone and all that is far from it, the comics have batman using a system that can spy on anything in the world at anytime, this isn't a new concept. Often in the comics the idea of one person having too much power is brought up in regards to Batman. Hell, Spiderman has that idea going too.

Does he say what parts are paralleled or are you just reading the words and running away with it?

Got something concrete here to work with? Maybe the ideas that have been main stays in comics for decades apply to our current political situation but that doesn't mean they were created for the war.

At first in the movie I was thinking maybe I'm reading too deep into it as well, but as the movie developed it just became too apparent to ignore. Here are just some examples:

1. "Next time, use American" *Harvey Slams the gun down*
2. Batman chases the guy out of China? Stuff like this has been done in Batman, but I haven't seen anything done to that extent in the Long Halloween or any other comics like it.
3. Them continually referring giving into the Joker as "giving into terrorists".
4. Gotham doesn't need a hero that it'll understand now? Sound like anyone? I know Batman's supposed to be alone in this, but the whole "they'll hate me now but appreciate it later" is a stretch.
5. The simple concept of fighting fire with fire in a chaos ridden city that is in war between "terrorists" and the citizens. Citizens want to give in and back out?
6. The whole thing with the cellphone tracking. I have no problem with the technology, but Lucius Fox making such a big deal out of it? That was barely even relevant to the story. They just slapped in Batman having "too much power" in the last half hour of the movie.

These are just a few. The thing is, they could have easily done this movie without them.In fact a lot of the scenes aren't even necessary, they're very small.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a party pooper. There were things done amazingly well in this movie (I've already mentioned this...), such as comic book adaptation, character, Heath Ledger's acting, and symbolic themes such as the villains being "mad dogs". I'm just saying, there are several undeniable scenes that kind of interrupt every once in a while.

[Munsu]

Just watched the movie, it was great... the Joker was simply awesome. If they by any chance want to bring him back in some capacity, they should consider Dominic West for the part. He'll be playing Jigsaw in the new Punisher movie.

[Jessper]

Well for one thing, I never said what exactly they're saying in the movie, so now you're just assuming things.

You're right, I asked you to explain it before and you wouldn't so I had to guess, imagine that.

1. The idea of items "Made In the U.S.A." being superior isn't new to this decade. Are you really 16? That might explain it.
2. If you wanted to you could make a connection here but it certainly wasn't the first thing I thought of, and I doubt many others saw it that way.
3. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Terrorist
4. Did you see Hellboy 2? It came out recently.
5. This is totally different. The people in TDK wanted to back out because they were directly in the line of fire. Most people fighting to pull us out of Iraq are not doing so to save their own lives.
6. Once again, this concept is not new to the comics. Plus they didn't make a big deal of it, the time they spent on it was all of 10 seconds.

These are just a few. The thing is, they could have easily done this movie without them.In fact a lot of the scenes aren't even necessary, they're very small.

Remove enough little things and the product will surely suffer.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not a party pooper. There were things done amazingly well in this movie (I've already mentioned this...), such as comic book adaptation, character, Heath Ledger's acting, and symbolic themes such as the villains being "mad dogs". I'm just saying, there are several undeniable scenes that kind of interrupt every once in a while.

Undeniable because you had a predisposition to see it that way. Self fulfilling prophecy and all that. Terrorist existed before the war and will exist after the war, all references being attributed to the past 5 years doesn't make much sense given the broad amount of history.

[Carnage]

You're right, I asked you to explain it before and you wouldn't so I had to guess, imagine that.

1. The idea of items "Made In the U.S.A." being superior isn't new to this decade. Are you really 16? That might explain it.
2. If you wanted to you could make a connection here but it certainly wasn't the first thing I thought of, and I doubt many others saw it that way.
3. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Terrorist
4. Did you see Hellboy 2? It came out recently.
5. This is totally different. The people in TDK wanted to back out because they were directly in the line of fire. Most people fighting to pull us out of Iraq are not doing so to save their own lives.
6. Once again, this concept is not new to the comics. Plus they didn't make a big deal of it, the time they spent on it was all of 10 seconds.

1. My point is that they've added in a bunch of these scenes for a reason. At this point its not a coincidence. If that were the only scene in the movie like that, then yes it would have been completely normal. But it didn't even have a relation to the plot, not saying that a movie can't do without its humor, but they have added in a bunch of these scenes which must be more than a coincidence.

2. Well there's not much to argue here.

3. My point, again, is that there is an accumulation of these scenes. This, combined with every other factor in the movie (i.e. the chaos, the unappreciated hero of his time, the backing out, etc.), leads one with sense to believe this is more than just a coincidence.

4. Hellboy 2 is a demon. This is Batman. Completely different.

5. The people in the movie can be seen as a parallel to the American citizens back home, not the soldiers. Damn you are bad at this.

6. That's my point, why did they insert it in there if it wasn't even a big deal? What could possibly have been the point? Oh yeah.


It's the way you look at it, I can't really convince you even with evidence. But what the heck:

Remove enough little things and the product will surely suffer.

That's why you replace them.

Undeniable because you had a predisposition to see it that way. Self fulfilling prophecy and all that. Terrorist existed before the war and will exist after the war, all references being attributed to the past 5 years doesn't make much sense given the broad amount of history.

Yeah, except for the fact that Chris Nolan admit to (yes, right in your own post) there being parallels to the chaos. Combine that with with the several scenes I just noticed, and it beings to make sense if you can think logically. But that's not up to me.

[Junior]

I saw this movie yesterday! And the Joker made that movie. Seriously. Heath Ledger made an incredible villian.

It got slow at certain times...but it was a good movie.

I wonder if we'll be seeing Harley Quinn some time...in the next movie...

[Ryllharu]

Concerning the Batman/War in the Middle East connection:

Yes, it does not take much of an imagination to make that stretch. But TDK pushed the message of, "Doing the right thing, even though it is unpopular," throughout the whole movie.

You can take that as, "The war in Iraq was not the right thing, and staying there is by no means popular, but it is the right thing to do to in order to fix the mess we caused." Batman's fight with the Joker (blatant terrorist) caught a lot of people in the crossfire. In the end, the choice he made was one that did not and will not make him a hero, but it was still the right thing to do.

Then there was Fox and the nifty invention. All that power, at the price of the freedom of the people of Gotham. He made his choice, and you can see the references to what Britain (where Nolan is from) and to a slightly lesser extent America (hell, even Sweeden now) has become.

There are a ton of parallels in there...at least for me.

Which is what makes this such a great movie. They left a lot of things just out there. Like the best of literature, your brain is making all the connections. Take Spiderman for example, where they had him leap up on a shining tower with an American flag right at the top. Blatant, and it insults us by forcing the connecting thought. TDK doesn't do that. If you wanted to take TDK as a simple superhero flick, sure, you could. But it has those parts that strike us close to home, threats against random people and not those that are standing out, but attacks at the cowards. Not the ones who stand up, but the ones who hide out of fear. When the threat comes to you, will you hide like a coward and die on your knees, or stand up against it and take it as it comes?

So yeah, you can take it for what it was. But you can also dig much further into it, just like the best kinds of literature.


@Junior: Interesting thing about Harley Quinn, she was originally created for the Animated Series only and specifically for the voice actress that played her. But, she became so insanely popular they incorporated her into the comics and made her a canon character.

But I don't think we'll see a movie with her any time soon.

[Junior]

Yeah I know. But I really like her character but I don't know any actors who could pull her off.

Oooh, and I hear they want to bring Catwoman in the next movie. o_O

[Jessper]

1. My point is that they've added in a bunch of these scenes for a reason. At this point its not a coincidence. If that were the only scene in the movie like that, then yes it would have been completely normal. But it didn't even have a relation to the plot, not saying that a movie can't do without its humor, but they have added in a bunch of these scenes which must be more than a coincidence.

How did it not have a relation to the plot? They NEEDED people to make an attempt on Harvey's life and he HAD to take it in stride.

3. My point, again, is that there is an accumulation of these scenes. This, combined with every other factor in the movie (i.e. the chaos, the unappreciated hero of his time, the backing out, etc.), leads one with sense to believe this is more than just a coincidence.

It is a movie about a terrorist (don't get me wrong, this idea came from the comics years before the war). Maybe I've become desensitized to the phrase "We do not negotiate with terrorist" or anything similar due to the abundance of use it has gotten for well over 5 years...

4. Hellboy 2 is a demon. This is Batman. Completely different.

People hating their hero is not new.

5. The people in the movie can be seen as a parallel to the American citizens back home, not the soldiers. Damn you are bad at this.

Says the guy that missed I was talking about the citizens at home? I went out of my way to say I was not talking about people with their life at risk (that would be the soldiers).

Yeah, except for the fact that Chris Nolan admit to (yes, right in your own post) there being parallels to the chaos. Combine that with with the several scenes I just noticed, and it beings to make sense if you can think logically. But that's not up to me.

Thanks for reminding me of what I wrote, almost forgot for a second there. He talks specifically about the chaos in the city being paralleled to how the Iraq is currently, not about how Bush is the best president ever and how we shouldn't abandon hope.

Yes, there are political undertones in the movie, but the movie is not first and foremost about the war and every scene is likewise not a metaphor for Iraq. The Joker is NOT Bin Laden, Batman is NOT President Bush, and people being inherently good is not an opinion of how we should support the war. Some of your points are right but you have taken the idea to the extreme (haha that makes you an extremist you terrorist you) and are giving the film a lot of hate for it.

Also, the Ad hominem slant to your arguments is getting old. You call everyone that doesn't agree with you shallow, senseless, etc. Tone the jackass down a notch.

[Assertn]

Considering that Heath Ledger is dead....I don't think we'll see a Harley Quinn

Carnage's critiques are far too ridiculously opinionated, so I'm not even going to argue them. However, I do agree with the people saying that Two Face felt kind of rushed.

If you think about it in terms of storytelling conventions....
The climax would probably be when the clock strikes 10 in the ferry scene. This moment represents the turning point where Joker loses control, and fails completely. The Joker was the focus of the movie, so his defeat should have been the resolution. Instead, Two Face is passed off as Joker's "last ace", and has to be killed off as a pawn, rather than a major villain.

I think a better approach would have been to end his scene in the hospital...or at least after the hospital blows up and he is missing. They built him up so much prior to his accident, and then half-hazardly knock him off an edge to wrap him up quickly.

[Munsu]

Considering that Heath Ledger is dead....I don't think we'll see a Harley Quinn

I suggested Dominic West for the role if they decide to bring Joker back. He'd be a great joker in my opinion.



Careful of brief nakedness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbHEn...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URupBZbfbJg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6O1F...eature=related

[Jessper]

I think a better approach would have been to end his scene in the hospital...or at least after the hospital blows up and he is missing. They built him up so much prior to his accident, and then half-hazardly knock him off an edge to wrap him up quickly.

I agree. Aaron Eckhart is a great actor too so the next movie focusing on him would be great imo

[Idealistic]

This movie was great.... Although the way Joker escaped jail was cliche and it has been done to death in like every movie. You'd think they'd have more security instead of one idiot inside.

Other than that, everything else was awesome. God damn Heath plays a great joker. Me and my friend were actually joking that he wasn't acting, that's his lifestyle. Haha.

[Board of Command]

This movie was great.... Although the way Joker escaped jail was cliche and it has been done to death in like every movie. You'd think they'd have more security instead of one idiot inside.

Other than that, everything else was awesome. God damn Heath plays a great joker. Me and my friend were actually joking that he wasn't acting, that's his lifestyle. Haha.

At least his life ended on a high note.

[Carnage]

I see a lot of anticipation for the Riddler on the internet. He's been done already, but at this point I think he'd be a perfect candidate for a villain in the next movie.

[Munsu]

I see a lot of anticipation for the Riddler on the internet. He's been done already, but at this point I think he'd be a perfect candidate for a villain in the next movie.

You mean, the same way the Joker and Two-Face were done already?

[Carnage]

Yeah, I forgot to mention I also read that the want to use villains that haven't been used before, which might be a problem. But there will probably be more than one villain (again), which gives hope to there being a Riddler.

[Assassin]

well they've done joker, riddler, penguin, two-face, mr.freeze, poison ivy.....who else is left?

[darkshadow]

Bane, obviously

[Jessper]

Bane has been done too