I don't mean people intentionally search for exploits online, but rather they experiment with the game and stumble upon some groundbreaking moves/techniques/combos. I was to lazy to figure out how to get around those crazy combos so I watched the pro videos for strategies I could emulate. Hell, I had no idea of L-cancelling or directional influence before I was introduced to the "advanced techniques." Wavedashing was just a bonus.
I had a acquaintance of mine bring up this very question a few weeks ago, after I handed his ass to him on a plate in a 1-vs-1. He claimed that my use of the move was a glitch that was unfair and that I shouldn't have used it because he didn't know it. I said that anyone who uses the move isn't any better than anyone else inherently, you get no advantage just because you can wavedash. Case-in-point, another friend of mine who cannot wavedash, try as he may, happened to overhear and challenged me. I lost, though it was close. Was the wavedashing the deciding factor in the match?
While to be sure wavedashing allows more complicated moves to be performed in sequence, as well as facilitates movement on the field, the key word is complicated. You already have to have a modicum of skill and finger speed to accomplish these things, in order to see anything come of it. You won't be seeing someone who just discovered wallteching zooming around with any sort of efficiency. If anything, they'll be the more punishable for it.
I don't know if the developers will keep wavedashing in the next game, though as a product of the physics enjine, I don't know how they can take it out and keep airdodging the same. Personally though, I don't care. While I use it, and will keep on using it, the best part of these games, at least for me, has been developing my own playing style, moveset, etc. I don't own the game, I don't own a gamecube, I play mostly weekends. So for someone to need to donate all of their time to the game, is not necessary, though it follows that they would be better than someone who does not.
On-topic edit: Final Smash item has been revealed, and the move it unlocks can only be used once..... hmmm. Looks like another reason to yell "Finish Him!"
Last edited by eat_toast; Tue, 05-29-2007 at 05:59 PM.
Lols *obviously* every person who defends wave dashing in this thread are the very people i previously stereotyped. You say its ok to experiment and find glitches in the game, and somehow that transfers over to it being ok to look up hacks that obsessive koreans spent many jobless hours developing?
Justify it all you want, but my perspective is no different than the perspective of anyone else in my situation. It's lame. It's not fun. It's not worth my time. Even if I have no problem beating a wave dasher, I still wouldn't play them as a matter of principle.
Removing wave dashing and keeping air dodging isn't hard. All you have to do is remove the effect of sliding upon contact with the floor :P
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
As long as I can remember, exploiting every possible trick in a fighting game was a key tactic to win. While I have no qualms against your decision to deny a game of Smash with a "wavedasher," I still can't agree with why you think so poorly about the game's unintentionalities.Originally Posted by AssertnFailure
Granted, as far as Smash is concerned, nobody would've considered it a fighting game with any depth had it not been for those player-discovered techniques. Well, as long as it's not game-breaking, I think they ought to retain the exploits to keep tournament-goers happy.
KIMOCHI~II
Agree with Scalpel. If it isn't groundbreaking then there shouldn't be a problem with it, unless you are just blatantly biased. I don't see how one move, wavedashing, makes smash "lame" or "not fun." Super Smash Brothers Melee is fun no matter what unless you are getting your ass kicked and have no chance against the opponent, in which case it is indeed frustrating. Your "principle" seems to be, and correct me if I'm wrong otherwise, people who put in so many "jobless hours" figuring out new strategies through exploits and people who use them are not worth playing because it makes gameplay unoriginal, which you find dull and boring to play against.
There are a huge number of games that you probably play where everyone plays the same way and where everyone uses exploits. Take Starcraft for example. Mutalisk grouping, which I believe was unintended, is almost staple play for any Zerg trying to harass. Would you deny a game against a Zerg player who uses such techniques because it is "lame"?
Sorry to everyone for getting off topic.
On topic:
Smash Dojo has really delivered with promises of enhanced aerial combat. Apparently you can "move and shoot" with any rapid-fire item. This includes forwards, backwards, and jumping. Intense.
Now everyone can be a laser spammer.
Ah and yet, the simple principles of wave dashing form the fundamentals of so many other moves that you cannot perform without it. It basically isolates you from other people who choose not to learn it in the first place.
Are you proposing that without wave dashing, there'd be no depth to smash bros?
@darkmetal: No. If you're talking about equivalent exploits for Starcraft, you'd have to talk about the trick to shift a command center such that it's physically touching the mineral fields, whereas protoss and zerg could only place their base within a certain radial distance from. Sure it was never intentional, and its a pain in the ass to master, but it does give a huge tactical advantage...so its ok right?
The nice thing about starcraft is that developers still have the opportunity to tweak unfair advantages through the release of future patches....but I'm not really familiar with this mutalisk trick you speak of.
@anon-neg-repper: Yes, nobody but jobless koreans would bother to discover wave dashing, or the number of frames it takes pikachu to physically grab someone, or w/e.
Last edited by Assertn; Wed, 05-30-2007 at 07:53 PM.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Excuse me, in retrospect, that statement is completely different than what I had intended it to sound. I'm not saying there'd be lack of depth without wavedashing and the like, but rather, there'd be lack of further content outside of techniques that are officially listed as being intentional in the game.Are you proposing that without wave dashing, there'd be no depth to smash bros?
KIMOCHI~II
But the techniques that are officially listed as intentional in the game already allow for much more strategy than you'd ever need. Broke glitch techniques unfortunately make many of these utterly obsolete.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
I have to agree with you on that. Rolling is almost useless compared to wavelanding or wavedashing. However, I don't think they make the game broke. The advance techniques are a result of one-upsmanship, fair or non-fair. It is really hard not to use advantageous abilities against the opponent when you have them in your arsenal.
Well, if they do keep wavedashing in Brawl, it means the developers do not disapprove of it although it may not show up in the instructions. They did that with L-cancelling from Smash 64 to Melee, although they did increase lag time.
The people who figure out frame rates and such may have no life, but you have to agree that it adds a scientific/statistical value to the game.
Well, in the end, it still comes down to the old argument of whether you wish to play casually or competively, I suppose. Seeing as there is no perfect human, there will always be holes in programming, be they harmless or gamebreaking. On the same token, at least you'll never encounter a player with perfect execution, which pretty much beats out all other arguments to what constitutes a "fair game."
KIMOCHI~II
well, im not really good at wave dashing but i say that if they do keep wave dashing, they should make it so its more even because some chars can wave dash like crazy while other cant wavedash as good like samus's bomb wave dash which flies you half way across the map making it like impossible for ppl to touch you
and if they do keep wave dashing they should make it like an official move where the game actually teaches you how to do it rather than being a glitch of some sort
ty psj for this sig
See? This is why you're going to kick my ass at SB. I don't even know what wavedashing is, or maybe I do know but I'm pretty sure I don't do it.
Anybody care to explain this casual gamer just what that is? Perhaps I can practice then and get better or something.
I never played the Gamecube version so...I guess I could go for the explanation as well.
/me feels like a noob
This fantastic Sousuke sig was made by the one and only Lucifus! Thanks man!
Wavedashing is a product of the physics engine of the game, and all characters (excepting Peach, but there could be more that I don't play) can perform. Some are easier to perform and some go father than others, all depends on the character's traction and the fighting platform. For example, areas like the spaceship on fourside will allow for a super long wavedash for everyone, due to low traction.
Anyhow, what you have to do is practice this sequence: jumping, and then immediately diagonally airdodging into the ground. My best adivse is to go into training mode and practice for awhile. At first I rolled alot, that just means you are shielding before you are jumping. When you are beginning it could be better for you to be falling, then practice airdodging into the ground, instead of focusing on jumping then immediately airdodging. There are some good videos for this floating around that could probably explain better than I.
Someone mentioned bomb-wavedashing? I think what you mean is the Super-wavedash, which I will concede is a completely broken technique, but as it's so hard to pull off it doesn't matter. That involves intense muscle-memory, but regular wavedashing is fairly easy to learn. Took me maybe half an hour to get down with Samus, then I went on to Fox, Marth, etc.
Winged Dancer, I suggest you visit www.smashboards.com and watch some of the videos. I can suggest certain videos if you have a character in mind.
You're eyes will open up to a whole new level of competitive smash gameplay.
I also suggest you take a look at these:
Advanced How To Play (SSBM) Part 1
Advanced How To Play (SSBM) Part 2
Advanced How To Play (SSBM) Part 3
Yes well, I'm very competitive with smash bros.
It all comes down to if you wish to devote the extra effort to train yourself moves that other people discovered, to further isolate yourself from the comparative skill of your friends. :P
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Until your friends who play casually get fed up with not having a chance, and stop playing altogether. I never owned a gamecube, so I just stopped playing with the ones who'd start pulling moves like that.
Now one of my friends has no one to play with. Smash was designed to be a casual fighter to play with all your friends. If I wanted to play a 4 player super-technical fighter, I'd play Guilty Gear Isuka (even though it's got lots of controls issues).
Exactly. And all the technical characteristics people bring up when associating this with the fighting game genre....well I hate fighting games.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Every fighting game I've played (Honorable mention to Dead or Alive 3 for not being so bad at this) has been utterly unsuitable for casual play. There's always some weird glitchy seeming behavior that requires hours and hours of practice to viably use but once mastered yeilds a devastating enough advantage that there's no point in playing against it unless you've mastered it as well. I initially thought SSBM was difffernent, something younger people could just pick up and have fun playing, but a year living in a dorm full of wave dashing, frame counting maniacs took all the fun out of it for me. Now I hate the game with a passion. I say let the fighting games go to the people willing to devote themselves to them and if you want to have fun with your friends do something else.
This happened to me with the narutimate hero games on the ps2.
I introduced them to my friends, and utterly destroyed them in those games, to the point where:
a) they dont want to play against me
b) i hold back big time, just so its fun ( i do this with tenkaichi 2 aswell )
So i just decided to stop playing nh3 all together until nha was released, just so the skill level would even out i guess, until the younger brother of a friend of mine challenged me to a be all, end all match on who is better at the game ( i used to crush him over and over).
So he trained and fucking trained for like months, while i didn't even play the game, actually I think I even lost the game, can't find it anywhere.
Anyway, we started the matches, and he won the first match, i was suprised cause he pretty much owned me, second round i was getting used to the game again, and it was a close win for him.
3rd,4th and 5th round i won, didn't even use my best character.
However, he is the only one that would like to play like 10 rounds against me, my other friends won't, unless i agree to hold back, and let them land the occassional special attack on me.
So yeah i hope ssbb does away with those exploits, they can make friendly games a total mess.
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