Naruto Shippuuden Episode 13

[XanBcoo]

Nope, I don't agree Kakashi figured it out by observation and by what Kisame said. Itachi's own words and reactions give it away. He acts shocked, and says "Kakashi-san, you couldn't have..." when Kakashi asks how bad his eyesight has become. This isn't consistent with Itachi's responses to Kakashi's previous deductions about the Mangekyou Sharingan. If you look at how that is shown in the anime as well, Itachi looks far more hostile towards Kakashi after that one remark than at any other time. This would seem to indicate that he is feeling threatned, or that he now knows he is in for a proper fight.

That's a huge leap in logic, even for Itachi. It's ridiculous.

*Kakashi finishes deducing how the Mangekyou Sharingan works based on evidence from past fights*
*Itachi congratulates Kakashi on his intellectual prowess*
Kakashi says: "How bad has your eyesight gotten?"
*Itachi suddenly assumes Kakashi has Mangekyou Sharingan*

Please tell me your recognize what I'm trying to say here...Viewer speculation aside, even inside the Naruto universe it's pretty illogical that Itachi would assume Kakashi had Mangekyou, just on that one seemingly irrelevant comment.

My conclusion on why Itachi was surprised is just as you said, he's realized he's been threatened because Kakashi has him figured out.

[Animeniax]

I'm disappointed at this apparent weakness with the mangekou sharingan. Itachi was a total badass with an ultimate weapon. Now we find out he has limiters and can only fire once or twice before the barrel melts. Kinda lame.

Actually the Manga is much faster. Unless you read at the kindergarten level. We're talking about a comic book here, not a novel.

Yeah, that's a quote from ATHF.

[itadakimasu]

XanBcoo: from that dialogue between itachi and kakashi, the only thing i pulled from it is that kakashi is suggesting that itachi's eye seight has gone bad from his repeated use of the sharingan.



Spoiler of the century !!!! naruto can only get better !!!!!!!!!!! keep watching!!!!

that is... unless they begin fillers again.

[DB_Hunter]

@XanBcoo: Because deteriorating eyesight is something only a Mangekyou user must experience. If every Sharingan user faced that problem they would be a really pathetic clan, as they would all be blind after using the Sharingan a few times!

Anyway, its never been mentioned before that normal Sharingan users have their eyes damaged which means it must be something unique to a Mangekyou user. And I doubt Kakashi just heard it from someone or read a book, as there have only been like 3 users of the Mangekyou Sharingan. Information must certainly be scarce on it.

Therefore, the only way he could possible know is if has experienced the problem himself. The ONLY way he could know this without having the Mangekyou Sharingan is if a Mangekyou user told him, which I doubt.

[animus]

Is it me, or does Itachi ALWAYS have his sharingan on. The silhouettes with them putting chakra into extracting the Bijuu from Gaara, show him with Sharingan too. Maybe, it's just like a plot device to allow people to recognize his silhouette. But, man he's got it on like all the time so he must have some insane amount of chakra.

[XanBcoo]

@bbaucom - Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

@XanBcoo: Because deteriorating eyesight is something only a Mangekyou user must experience. If every Sharingan user faced that problem they would be a really pathetic clan, as they would all be blind after using the Sharingan a few times!

I...don't think you got my point. I don't see what this reply has to do with what I said. Kakashi's question was addressed to Itachi about Itachi's eyesight. Why anyone would pull from that that Kakashi has experience with deteriorating eyesight himself is beyond me.

Perhaps if he had said something along the lines of: "Has your eyesight gotten as bad as mine?" or "I know how bad your eyesight must have gotten." then I'd agree. But he was asking a question about the state of Itachi's eyes after explaining how he figured out they were being strained. The only possible interpretation of that is a taunt.

It's like me saying "Doctor's agree that wearing glasses improves poor vision. Coincidentally, your friend also said it seemed your eyesight is improving. Is your eyesight really improving?"

and you assuming: "XanBcoo wears glasses."

And I doubt Kakashi just heard it from someone or read a book, as there have only been like 3 users of the Mangekyou Sharingan. Information must certainly be scarce on it.

Kakashi has had plenty of experience with it. It's been used on him before, and he's been able to deduce the effects of MS on the user as a result of Itachi's actions. He also remembers what Kisame (who works alongside Itachi and knows about MS's effects) said. That's all he needed, and that's not just me saying that. Itachi even praises him for figuring this out. There is no lack of information here. As always, the anime makes the simplest of concepts irritatingly clear.

[animus]

I do believe it's easy to deduce that he might have a Mang Sharingan. The direct quote from DB's subs is "Itachi, how bad has your eyesight gotten?". I think it's one of those questions that you use in comparison to yourself. To emphasize my point the question could possibly be asked this way, Itachi how bad has YOUR eyesight gotten? You say it's a taunt, but do you really think Itachi would really have a shocked reaction like he did to a taunt? Kakashi already stated to Itachi that he knew the technique had dangers to the eyes from use, and like you said Itachi even praises him for it. So it's an extremely logical situation to assume Kakashi might have it just from the next statement and Itachi's reaction.

[UChessmaster]

I do believe it's easy to deduce that he might have a Mang Sharingan. The direct quote from DB's subs is "Itachi, how bad has your eyesight gotten?". I think it's one of those questions that you use in comparison to yourself. To emphasize my point the question could possibly be asked this way, Itachi how bad has YOUR eyesight gotten? You say it's a taunt, but do you really think Itachi would really have a shocked reaction like he did to a taunt? Kakashi already stated to Itachi that he knew the technique had dangers to the eyes from use, and like you said Itachi even praises him for it. So it's an extremely logical situation to assume Kakashi might have it just from the next statement and Itachi's reaction.

It can`t be a comparison, because in order to compare you need two "subjects" to compare, if he said something like... is your eyesight as bad as mine? then it will be completely plausible, kakashi deducted that itachi can`t use mangekyou a lot, because

A) Itachi was tired the first time he used it

B) They even showed a flash of Kisame saying out loud how he shouldn`t be using it or whatever (this one should be enough giveaway...)

Kakashi: After using that technique, you were very fatigued and retreated inmediately

(Flashback) Kisame: Itachi-san, it`s dangerous for you to use your eyes too much

Kakashi: Besides using a large amount of chakra, using that technique poses a huge risk to your eyes right itachi?

I`m focusing in what Kisame said and second part of Kakashi`s last sentence... they basically sayd the same, i don`t see something that needs to be overanalyzed or anything, maybe i`m missing something.

[XanBcoo]

Actually, animus does have a point, I'll admit. If Kakashi was indeed emphasizing "your" in that sentence, it does slightly change the way Itachi could have inferred it.

Even so, that whole exchange still doesn't ring true for me.

[Yukimura]

This is a good example of a situation where something may have been lost in translation too. Does anyone know if there was anything about the way Kakashi actually worded the statement that might have put extra emphasis somewhere meaningful?

Otherwise the evidence is just circumstantial. It's like Light in Death Note, there are lots of things about him that would make perfect sense if he was Kira, but none of it proves he is. In the same way Kakashi's statement and Itachi's reaction would make sense if Kakashi had Mangekyou, but it obviously doesn't prove anything since there are also other explanations.

On the flip side until Kakashi produces a new jutsu that isn't Mangekyou it'll impossible to dispell the suspicion.

[DarthEnderX]

I like UChessMaster's explanation best. All the things Kisame said last time give Kakashi the info he needed to come to the conclusion he did.

I actually thought after he said it that Itachi WAS just kinding of staring impassively. I started to wonder if he wasn't actually looking at anyone before and they were too far away to see.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Does Kisame's VA have lisp?

Horrible.

[masamuneehs]

This is a good example of a situation where something may have been lost in translation too. Does anyone know if there was anything about the way Kakashi actually worded the statement that might have put extra emphasis somewhere meaningful

Dattebayo translated it like this:
Kakashi (after flashback of Kisame and Itachi in Konoha): "Besides using a large amount of chakra, using that technique poses a huge risk to your eyes. Right, Itachi?"
Itachi: "An impressive analysis, for having only seen it once"
Kakashi: "Itachi, how bad has your eyesight become?"


clearly he is shocked/surprised to hear this...
and, after a closeup shot of Kakashi's eyes we get

and you'll notice the bottom right hand corner of the screen, where there's obviously a "blind spot" added in. This is obviously on purpose, also comes immediately after they focus on Kakashi's Sharingan eye, and I thought of this as a POV shot from Kakashi's POV, and immediately followed by Itachi saying:

"Kakashi-san, you couldn't have..."

That shot is also done earlier, with the blind spot intact, before Kakashi removes his eye protector.

Rasengan Fansubs translated the same exchange with almost the exact same translation.

[XanBcoo]

I like UChessMaster's explanation best. All the things Kisame said last time give Kakashi the info he needed to come to the conclusion he did.

Dude, that was totally my explanation .

@Masa: I assume by "blind spot" you mean that dark corner on the screen?

Huh...

So assuming Kakashi has somehow developed Mangekyou, I wonder how he got it. Which one of his buddies has he offed?

[DB_Hunter]

@Masa: I don't think that the pic is showing a blind spot. Even if Kakshi's Sharingan eye has deteriorated slightly, he still has his other eye which should be able see normally.

@XanBcoo:

I...don't think you got my point. I don't see what this reply has to do with what I said. Kakashi's question was addressed to Itachi about Itachi's eyesight. Why anyone would pull from that that Kakashi has experience with deteriorating eyesight himself is beyond me.

Its simple... it't not something thats been mentioned for other Sharingan users, so it doesn't apply to them. Therefore if Kakashi still only has the normal Sharingan, he can't possibly know about this side effect.

IMO, the setting of the question and the tone of Kakashi's voice (if I may go so far to say), suggests this is an entirely rhetorical question. He knows Itachi's eyesight has gotten worse, and if my suspicion on normal Sharingan users not having worsening eyesight is correct, he could only know what caused it if he has now obtained the Mangekyou Sharingan, as it only happens to Mangekyou users. It's all just Kakashi's cool way of indirectly telling Itachi he now also has the Mangekyou Sharingan.

If this isn't enough, Itachi's next statement is the final proof: "Kakashi-san, you couldn't have..."

Couldn't have what? Joined MENSA because you're so smart by figuring all this out? He has just finished praising Kakashi all the way through the conversation for his insight, and now he decides to get shocked? I don't buy that.

Kakashi has had plenty of experience with it. It's been used on him before, and he's been able to deduce the effects of MS on the user as a result of Itachi's actions.

No, he doesn't. Being subjected to an attack once is not plenty of experience. Certainly not for deducing intangible weaknesses of an attack.

He also remembers what Kisame (who works alongside Itachi and knows about MS's effects) said.

Kisame told Itachi not to use his eyes too much because it is dangerous for him, not necessarily his eyes alone. Obviously if Itachi drains all his chakra by using the Mangekyou he is going to collapse. I seriously doubt Itachi would have revealed such a severe weakness of one his main attacking options to Kisame. They are in Akatsuki, not a friendly after school club. My money is on Kisame simply telling Itachi not to drain all his chakra at once.

[UChessmaster]

I still don`t beleive that Kakashi deducted mang stresses itachi`s eyes because Kakashi himself has Mang., in fact even IF Kakashi has mang. it proves nothing, since Kakashi is not an actuall Uchiha the effects of a Normal sharingan makes him go uncounscious for a week after THREE techniques(see zabuza arc) , i supose if he uses something like mang he will be out for a month... that doesn`t mean itachi goes down after 3 tehcniques nor that he is down after 1 mang.

Again, if we decide that Kakashi knows about mang weak point because he has it himself, we`ll have to neglet some important parts of the whole discuccion, i emphasis again in the kisame flashback, what`s the point of it in the first place then?

[animus]

I still don`t beleive that Kakashi deducted mang stresses itachi`s eyes because Kakashi himself has Mang., in fact even IF Kakashi has mang. it proves nothing, since Kakashi is not an actuall Uchiha the effects of a Normal sharingan makes him go uncounscious for a week after THREE techniques(see zabuza arc) , i supose if he uses something like mang he will be out for a month... that doesn`t mean itachi goes down after 3 tehcniques nor that he is down after 1 mang.

Again, if we decide that Kakashi knows about mang weak point because he has it himself, we`ll have to neglet some important parts of the whole discuccion, i emphasis again in the kisame flashback, what`s the point of it in the first place then?

He didn't need to deduce that fact by himself, he was there when Kisame told Itachi not to use it to much because it strains/weakens his eyes. He then states it again to Itachi, and Itachi praises him for that analysis with his same stoic, cold glare. But that's not the issue here, the issue is Kakashi's next statement of "Itachi, how bad has your eyesight become?" clearly induced a state of surprise and shock and that's evident by Itachi's statement of "Kakashi-san, you couldn't have..." and his facial expression and a slight gasp. Why do you think he had such a reaction? Because he was afraid Kakashi would find out that he had used it continuously and was possibly near blindness? No, I don't think he would have a reaction like that to something so trivial. Again, I point to Itachi's statement, people are denying the fact that this statement has A LOT of meaning.

[boilerph]

Ok now the thread is going from one broad leap to Kakashi having Mangekyou to everyone putting words in Kisame's mouth. Kisame never said that Itachi shouldn't use it because it strains his eyes. He just warned him against using it too much, we have seen that same warning given to people throughout this show and it was because of Chakra consumption i.e. Kakashi telling Sasuke he could only use the Chidoro twice. Making the leap that Kakashi would hear this and decide on the move damaging eyesight permanently is crazy. There's no precedent for that kind of warning meaning that anywhere else in the show. The closest thing was Lee's Lotus use back in the day and that was still not permanent damage. They show the flashback to what Kisame said as proof of Kakashi's statement about the Chakra requirements of the move.


Kakashi knowing about the eyesight deterioration is a self-contained statement that we can do nothing but speculate about. Kakashi having the Magekyou is one explanation however the other possibility, that noone has mentioned, is Kakashi found the hidden Uchiha scroll that explains the technique. I don't remember them showing Sasuke taking it with him or destroying it so it was probably still right there waiting to be found.

[RyougaZell]

Dattebayo translated it like this:
Kakashi (after flashback of Kisame and Itachi in Konoha): "Besides using a large amount of chakra, using that technique poses a huge risk to your eyes. Right, Itachi?"
Itachi: "An impressive analysis, for having only seen it once"
Kakashi: "Itachi, how bad has your eyesight become?"

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/4...shockedhg1.jpg
clearly he is shocked/surprised to hear this...
and, after a closeup shot of Kakashi's eyes we get
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/5880/blindspotcv5.jpg
and you'll notice the bottom right hand corner of the screen, where there's obviously a "blind spot" added in. This is obviously on purpose, also comes immediately after they focus on Kakashi's Sharingan eye, and I thought of this as a POV shot from Kakashi's POV, and immediately followed by Itachi saying:

"Kakashi-san, you couldn't have..."

That shot is also done earlier, with the blind spot intact, before Kakashi removes his eye protector.

Rasengan Fansubs translated the same exchange with almost the exact same translation.

Hey Masa...
but... Kakashi's sharingan is on his left... so if that is his pov... then the blind spot you mention should be on the left of the screen. The darkened spot you mention here belongs to Kakashi's normal eye.

[animus]

Ok now the thread is going from one broad leap to Kakashi having Mangekyou to everyone putting words in Kisame's mouth. Kisame never said that Itachi shouldn't use it because it strains his eyes. He just warned him against using it too much, we have seen that same warning given to people throughout this show and it was because of Chakra consumption i.e. Kakashi telling Sasuke he could only use the Chidoro twice. Making the leap that Kakashi would hear this and decide on the move damaging eyesight permanently is crazy. There's no precedent for that kind of warning meaning that anywhere else in the show. The closest thing was Lee's Lotus use back in the day and that was still not permanent damage. They show the flashback to what Kisame said as proof of Kakashi's statement about the Chakra requirements of the move.


Kakashi knowing about the eyesight deterioration is a self-contained statement that we can do nothing but speculate about. Kakashi having the Magekyou is one explanation however the other possibility, that noone has mentioned, is Kakashi found the hidden Uchiha scroll that explains the technique. I don't remember them showing Sasuke taking it with him or destroying it so it was probably still right there waiting to be found.

Maybe you should rewatch the episode before you make that statement. This is Kisame's exact quote from DB's translation, "Itachi-san, it's dangerous for you to use your eyes too much." Kakashi himself then said, "Besides using a large amount of Chakra, using that technique poses a huge risk to your eyes. Right, Itachi?" And Itachi's answer to that was "An impressive analysis for only having it seen once." Meaning he is not only praising Kakashi, but affirming to the fact that it does in fact damage the eyes. Why do you think that flashback was even included? Because it led up to Kakashi's explanation of the dangers of the Mang Sharingan. Or do you think the huge risk to his eyes is getting teary eyed whenever you look at the sun? Sure, Kisame's words were not something as clearcut as "They damage your eyes." but when you take it in context with Kakashi's statements they compliment eachother.