In the news today

[Uchiha Barles]

I dunno. It'd be nice to be able to disassociate the actor behind the puppet from the puppet as a character, but for me, that requires work. My first, gut reaction to the whole thing was "oh come the fuck on, really?" I can't help that. I actually can and do separate feelings for the personal lives of artists and athletes, and generally without such a knee jerk reaction. But something like this is different.

As a kid I was lucky enough to be free from knowledge of all the things that I now consider dark, unsightly, wrong, etc. and these kids shows I watched were magical to me. They regularly evoked a feeling that, as an adult, I'm lucky to get even once a year (estimate pulled out of my ass). Some people claim to have stopped getting it altogether. As an adult, you know that the shit you watch is fantasy and that real people create them, and have real lives and real problems. But it's nice if you don't EVER have to realize that about things that were magical to you when you didn't know any better. Sure, if you think about it, you'll realize it, but I honestly never thought about. And this news brought that shit to the fore front for me with a flying dragon kick to the teeth. It's a shame.

The guy quit the whole thing btw, he now claims he was of legal age when they had sex.

Well that's nice, but the damage is done, for me anyway. What an asshole.

[Archangel]

Uchess, always up to date with the gay news.

[Buffalobiian]

Uchess, always up to date with the gay news.

What Uchess said was already in the link U.Barles linked.

[Uchiha Barles]

What Uchess said was already in the link U.Barles linked.

In the original article Kevin Clash was saying the boy wasn't under-aged when the sexual relationship began, and that it was consensual. Now, the accuser himself is recanting his earlier claims and essentially aligning his story with Clash's. This was probably a shameless grab for quick cash. I hope they were able to prove that the relationship was legal and were able to intimidate this guy into dropping the shit. He shouldn't see a penny from this.

abcnews.go.com/US/elmo-accuser-recants-allegations-underage-sex-kevin-clash/story?id=17710758

[Buffalobiian]

Now, the accuser himself is recanting his earlier claims and essentially aligning his story with Clash's.

Right. I thought the "guy" you mentioned was Clash.

Now it sounds even more like MJ's case.

[Animeniax]

Right. I thought the "guy" you mentioned was Clash.

Now it sounds even more like MJ's case.

"Sounds like MJ's case" as in you think MJ wasn't a child molester and the victims just wanted money??

For me, a person's performance is a large part of the person himself. Like finding out Ian Curtis committed suicide makes his performances with Joy Division that much more emotional and meaningful than they otherwise would.

Or take an athlete like Michael Vick. As a dog lover myself, I hope each weekend to see him get crushed and his career in football ended. I don't care that he can play football, lots of guys can do that, but not everyone abuses and tortures little baby doggies in their free time.

[Buffalobiian]

"Sounds like MJ's case" as in you think MJ wasn't a child molester and the victims just wanted money??

Basically, yeah.

While I do think MJ likes children, I don't think he did anything incriminating such as molestation or statutory rape. The courts never found him guilty, while the parents settled out of court. If something like this happenned, I think a decent parent would feel the pain and commit to pressing the charges so that MJ doesn't harm another child again.

[Abdula]

So you guys can like and root for an athlete who plays well even if he's a scumbag off the field/court? Or maybe an actor or musician. Can you really enjoy their roles/music if you know they're despicable human beings off stage? I can't do it.

Of course I can. I am with Buff on this one. I think you wanting to see Michael Vick's career ended is pretty crazy

[Animeniax]

Basically, yeah.

While I do think MJ likes children, I don't think he did anything incriminating such as molestation or statutory rape. The courts never found him guilty, while the parents settled out of court. If something like this happenned, I think a decent parent would feel the pain and commit to pressing the charges so that MJ doesn't harm another child again.

I think MJ had the advantage in pretty much every aspect here. He was the celebrity with all the fan support. He had all the legal power money can afford. The parents look like money grubbers. The parents don't want a drawn out affair that could make things worse for their child. A lot of victims just want to get through it and move on with their lives. Yes there was no hard proof of guilt, but we know in this world the guilty go free all the time.

Of course I can. I am with Buff on this one. I think you wanting to see Michael Vick's career ended is pretty crazy

Why not? He brutalized and killed countless dogs, making them fight for his entertainment. He still has his life and health, he can do something else that doesn't give him the chance to influence impressionable minds and afford him the chance for other illegal activities.

[Abdula]

What exactly is he going to do that isn't going to give him the chance to influence impressionable minds? He is a superstar athlete and he did a lot for the falcons in his time there. People aren't just going to forget that. Plus he has done quite a lot of work with kids and animal charities since then and has publicly condemned his own actions numerous times. If you had made an argument for him being banned from football or something I may have entertained it for a little while but you seem to want him to suffer a career ending injury because of what he did. That is just crazy.

[Animeniax]

Flip burgers or sell used cars maybe? There are plenty of jobs where he doesn't have national exposure and the chance to influence kids.

As for wanting him injured, I don't see that he will leave the game unless he is forced to. Even with his recent poor performance with the Eagles, some team will give him a chance or he will be a backup QB with some team. I think it's ridiculous that because someone can play a sport, pretty much all other considerations of their worth as a human being are ignored. Honestly, if Vick couldn't play ball, you and I wouldn't know who he is, he'd just be another punk guilty of the worst kinds of animal abuse rotting in jail.

[Abdula]

Celebrity status doesn't go away that easily, that is the point I am trying to make here. Secondly, Vick has done a lot to change his image and try to make up for what he has done. Lastly, there are actors who can't act, singers who can't sing, people who are famous for being famous and countless others who get a pass on their actions because they are rich, or famous or have some talent or some other nonsense and that just isn't going to change.

[Animeniax]

Well to be glib it sounds like you're basically saying "don't hate the player, hate the game." But I do hate the players, and I hate the game. All the other useless celebrities with no real ability can rot, but so can the ones with ability but who choose to do terrible things like hurt the defenseless, children, and animals.

I think you're wrong about celebrity status too. I know things go in cycles but even Paris Hilton no longer covers every front page story. People forget celebrities as new ones appear.

[Abdula]

Oy vey. Are you purposely ignoring my point? I forgot who I am dealing with. My point is simple. I'm not saying don't hate the player, hate the game but if that is the message you got that is fine. I am saying that Vick unlike some others, admitted his wrong doing and is actively trying to make up for what he has done. If you think people aren't going to do terrible things like hurt the defenseless, children, and animals particularly if they think they can get away with it, then you are living in some utopian society and I would very much like an invite.

As far as celebrity status goes Mike Vick is very different from Paris Hilton. Joe Namath is still viewed as a god among the jets fans I know, people still go on about Johnny Cash and Elvis Presley.

[shinta|hikari]

So the guy took it back. Does this mean nostalgia is preserved for those affected?

[Animeniax]

Oy vey. Are you purposely ignoring my point? I forgot who I am dealing with. My point is simple. I'm not saying don't hate the player, hate the game but if that is the message you got that is fine. I am saying that Vick unlike some others, admitted his wrong doing and is actively trying to make up for what he has done.

As far as celebrity status goes Mike Vick is very different from Paris Hilton. Joe Namath is still viewed as a god among the jets fans I know, people still go on about Johnny Cash and Elvis Presley.

No, I just forgot about that point in light of discussing your larger point. Remorse and restitution are fine but they don't erase what you have done and they don't bring back or fully restore the victims. We can hate Paris Hilton or other useless celebrities, but they didn't do anything as criminal or egregious as financing dog fighting rings, abusing and killing dogs. Namath, Cash, and Presley didn't do any terrible things that we know about either, so their legacy is their on-field performance and music. I guess you'd have to be a pet owner/lover to feel the outrage in the case of Vick.

If you think people aren't going to do terrible things like hurt the defenseless, children, and animals particularly if they think they can get away with it, then you are living in some utopian society and I would very much like an invite.

No, I don't think we live in such a world, but I do think we should harshly punish those who commit these evils.

[Uchiha Barles]

So the guy took it back. Does this mean nostalgia is preserved for those affected?

Nope, the damage was in the knowledge that the fantasy is not free from the darker realities of the world. In this case, not just what didn't happen, but also what I think did (elmo's being extorted for cash).

[Assertn]

Well that's nice, but the damage is done, for me anyway. What an asshole.

Why is he an asshole, exactly? Or are you referring to the lying kid?

[Uchiha Barles]

The lying kid. What he did was dishonorable, harmful, and most importantly, fucked with some some of the remaining vestiges of childhood I had left.

[Animeniax]

Are you mad that he was lying (possibly for money) or that he revealed an ugly truth about someone that you'd rather not have found out about? I think don't think we can judge him for possibly letting the world know about a dirty secret that may have affected other children, in the hopes of not disturbing your childhood memories.