In the news today

[The Heretic Azazel]

Comparing successful integration of homosexuals into our military to other country's integration doesn't equate..

You do know they're already there, right?

Except they can be kicked out for being themselves. There's no viable defense for that, sorry.

[Animeniax]

You do know they're already there, right?

Except they can be kicked out for being themselves. There's no viable defense for that, sorry.

I agree that people should be allowed to be themselves, but only to a point. Group cohesion and harmony are important too, particularly in an organization like the military.

I realize gays are already in the military. So what's the big need to openly display/declare their homosexuality? Every census or official form I've completed has never asked me to declare my sexuality.

[Animeniax]

The military has a culture of its own, despite the fact most people only "visit" it briefly and a minority is there for their whole working life. When you adapt to that culture, your time there will be much easier and smoother. Apparently being anti-gay is a part of that culture in the USA. So, a person who never cared in his civilian life would suddenly turn anti-gay because it's a part of the business in the military.

Unfortunately such a culture will never change unless it's actively and publicly addressed. I have no doubt the troubles Ani predicted will happen to some extent but in the long run the development should be beneficial.

It may not be so much being trained to be "anti-gay" as it is emphasis on being manly, and homosexuality has always been associated with un-manliness and weakness, which is mostly undeserved but still the popular perception.

I don't know if the military can work if you change the culture. Basically you're training people to be killers, takers of life, machines almost. This is more true in the Marines but it's a military standard throughout. Changing the mindset from "killer" to "accept those who are different from you and live peacefully" will change humanity and war as we know it, and I don't see that happening.

I'd like to hear from Psyke on this topic, and Deadfire if he ever visits.

[XanBcoo]

I can show you statistics that say you're wrong Animeniax, but all you can do is tell me "You don't know what it's like," which, again, is a flimsy argument based on fear of change. I can point you to any number of people who "know what it's like" and completely disagree with you and have had completely different experiences. Your own assumptions about people obviously influence how you see the issue. I can't blame you for that, but that doesn't make your assumptions accurate.

Unfortunately such a culture will never change unless it's actively and publicly addressed. I have no doubt the troubles Ani predicted will happen to some extent but in the long run the development should be beneficial.

Yeah, this is part of it. The military is a cross section of America and will obviously contain homophobes, racists, sexists, etc. and legislating to that lowest common denominator is a problem that needs to be fixed. "America is just different" is not an argument.

I realize gays are already in the military. So what's the big need to openly display/declare their homosexuality? Every census or official form I've completed has never asked me to declare my sexuality.

What in fuck are you talking about? No one will be made to "declare their sexuality."

[Animeniax]

Stats have a funny way of distorting the truth. Numbers can be made to support an argument or flat out lie. You'll find people aren't always so forthcoming about their opinions. It's like racism. 95% of people think they aren't racist.

But America is just different, so you can't base successful homosexual integration in other nations' armies to what will happen if the US tries it. You brought up that argument, and it's invalid.

I was being facetious about "declaring your sexuality" formally. To me, being gay in the military and not getting kicked out is like avoiding jury duty. If you say it's so, they'll let you go (vice versa in the case of homosexuals).

[Uchiha Barles]

I trust in the military's ability to breakdown and rebuild. If homosexuality were to be allowed in the military, people would quickly get over the fact that they're working along side homosexuals. It would simply be a matter of those in charge to make sure it happens during bootcamp, and it sounds a nearly trivial matter to do considering the whole point of breaking down the recruits is to show that no one is "better" than any other. Once taken through the process and assigned duties, I'm sure this would as much of a non-issue as anything can get.

[XanBcoo]

Stats have a funny way of distorting the truth. Numbers can be made to support an argument or flat out lie. You'll find people aren't always so forthcoming about their opinions. It's like racism. 95% of people think they aren't racist.

Well, then you're just being stubborn and basing opinions on your own assumptions. I don't blame you, but In the end, everyone else's anecdotal evidence negates yours and all we're left with is a consistent majority approval rating for the repeal of DADT and a proven model of success in other nations.

Edit: And despite your stubbornness, it still stands that it is not right to legislate to the most homophobic, racist, sexist, etc. among us. No matter how difficult you think it will be.

[Animeniax]

I trust in the military's ability to breakdown and rebuild. If homosexuality were to be allowed in the military, people would quickly get over the fact that they're working along side homosexuals. It would simply be a matter of those in charge to make sure it happens during bootcamp, and it sounds a nearly trivial matter to do considering the whole point of breaking down the recruits is to show that no one is "better" than any other. Once taken through the process and assigned duties, I'm sure this would as much of a non-issue as anything can get.

The military can break down individuals and remold them into soldiers, but it's not a complete and total rebuild, otherwise we'd have very serious problems when these soldiers return to civilian life (some do anyway, but the majority return to civilian life and shed their military mindset normally). I do not believe something as deep-seated as racism or homophobia can be removed from a person's psyche through routine military training. This holds particularly for army, navy, and air force where the mental rebuilding is no where near as vigorous as in the marines.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Supreme Court Narrows Requirements for Miranda Rights Warning

How exactly are you expected to afffirm your right to REMAIN SILENT by VERBALLY INVOKING IT?

Another victory for law enforcement, another defeat for civil rights.

[XanBcoo]

Supreme Court Narrows Requirements for Miranda Rights Warning

How exactly are you expected to afffirm your right to REMAIN SILENT by VERBALLY INVOKING IT?

I don't feel strongly one way or the other about this. Perhaps I don't understand the full scope of the issue, but this seems like it's just a measure to make sure that a person's Miranda Rights are declared on-record, in the same way that someone would plead the 5th.

There's nothing self-incriminating about saying that you will remain silent until your lawyer is present to stop an interrogation.

Is there some way that this could be abused that I'm not seeing?

[Assassin]

how self-incriminating could it be to say "i invoke my right to remain silent, officer" ?

I do think its a little skewed that you have to express you're intent to invoke it, but simply being silent is not an expression of intent, but still, you can simply state it and then zip your lips, no harm done.

[Uchiha Barles]

Once you're told you have the right to remain silent, remaining silent should itself be the invocation of that right. What this is, is a yet another small way for authorities to assert that they hold power over you. A small, little thing to help the person being arrested to know his/her place. Perhaps even a tiny step towards further erosion of rights. In and of itself though, it's not a big deal.

[Animeniax]

Once you're told you have the right to remain silent, remaining silent should itself be the invocation of that right. What this is, is a yet another small way for authorities to assert that they hold power over you. A small, little thing to help the person being arrested to know his/her place. Perhaps even a tiny step towards further erosion of rights. In and of itself though, it's not a big deal.

How else can you confirm that they understand their right to remain silent unless they verbally acknowledge that they understand it?

[Uchiha Barles]

Alright fine, a simple answer of "yes" to "do you understand these rights?" should be given. Additionally, I think I need to amend what I said in my previous post. This seems, at least in part, to be a measure of idiotproofing a person from being able to self incriminate. If you invoke that right, cops have to stop questioning. At least that's what the statement "Had he made either of these simple, unambiguous statements, he would have invoked his 'right to cut off questioning.' Here he did neither, so he did not invoke his right to remain silent." leads me to believe. Everything else I said may be true, but it also makes things more clear cut. Fucking morons.

edit: Just wanted to clarify, I didn't read the article before writing my first post.

[XanBcoo]

Once you're told you have the right to remain silent, remaining silent should itself be the invocation of that right.

Yeah, that's true in theory. But it needs idiot proofing, as you said. It's the difference between the suspect outright saying "I refuse to talk" and ending questioning, and the suspect staying silent for an unspecified amount of time and then later saying something incriminating.

[Penner]

Religious Supergroup forms to smite Comedy Central's Jesus Christ project

"Coalition Against Religious Bigotry"

Yeah...

[Pandadice]

Massive Sinkhole Appears in Guatemala

[Animeniax]

That hole is too perfectly formed to be made by natural causes. I'm thinking aliens probing the earth or government digging for oil.

What exactly is at the bottom of that hole? Looks like the abyss.

[Kraco]

That certainly looks like a screenshot from some game. But I guess it's real since several news sources are reporting it.

[Psyke]

This reminds me of a certain Marvel movie.....