In the news today

[Animeniax]

You do know they're already there, right?

Except they can be kicked out for being themselves. There's no viable defense for that, sorry.

I agree that people should be allowed to be themselves, but only to a point. Group cohesion and harmony are important too, particularly in an organization like the military.

I realize gays are already in the military. So what's the big need to openly display/declare their homosexuality? Every census or official form I've completed has never asked me to declare my sexuality.

[XanBcoo]

I can show you statistics that say you're wrong Animeniax, but all you can do is tell me "You don't know what it's like," which, again, is a flimsy argument based on fear of change. I can point you to any number of people who "know what it's like" and completely disagree with you and have had completely different experiences. Your own assumptions about people obviously influence how you see the issue. I can't blame you for that, but that doesn't make your assumptions accurate.

Unfortunately such a culture will never change unless it's actively and publicly addressed. I have no doubt the troubles Ani predicted will happen to some extent but in the long run the development should be beneficial.

Yeah, this is part of it. The military is a cross section of America and will obviously contain homophobes, racists, sexists, etc. and legislating to that lowest common denominator is a problem that needs to be fixed. "America is just different" is not an argument.

I realize gays are already in the military. So what's the big need to openly display/declare their homosexuality? Every census or official form I've completed has never asked me to declare my sexuality.

What in fuck are you talking about? No one will be made to "declare their sexuality."

[Animeniax]

Stats have a funny way of distorting the truth. Numbers can be made to support an argument or flat out lie. You'll find people aren't always so forthcoming about their opinions. It's like racism. 95% of people think they aren't racist.

But America is just different, so you can't base successful homosexual integration in other nations' armies to what will happen if the US tries it. You brought up that argument, and it's invalid.

I was being facetious about "declaring your sexuality" formally. To me, being gay in the military and not getting kicked out is like avoiding jury duty. If you say it's so, they'll let you go (vice versa in the case of homosexuals).

[Uchiha Barles]

I trust in the military's ability to breakdown and rebuild. If homosexuality were to be allowed in the military, people would quickly get over the fact that they're working along side homosexuals. It would simply be a matter of those in charge to make sure it happens during bootcamp, and it sounds a nearly trivial matter to do considering the whole point of breaking down the recruits is to show that no one is "better" than any other. Once taken through the process and assigned duties, I'm sure this would as much of a non-issue as anything can get.

[Animeniax]

I trust in the military's ability to breakdown and rebuild. If homosexuality were to be allowed in the military, people would quickly get over the fact that they're working along side homosexuals. It would simply be a matter of those in charge to make sure it happens during bootcamp, and it sounds a nearly trivial matter to do considering the whole point of breaking down the recruits is to show that no one is "better" than any other. Once taken through the process and assigned duties, I'm sure this would as much of a non-issue as anything can get.

The military can break down individuals and remold them into soldiers, but it's not a complete and total rebuild, otherwise we'd have very serious problems when these soldiers return to civilian life (some do anyway, but the majority return to civilian life and shed their military mindset normally). I do not believe something as deep-seated as racism or homophobia can be removed from a person's psyche through routine military training. This holds particularly for army, navy, and air force where the mental rebuilding is no where near as vigorous as in the marines.

[XanBcoo]

Stats have a funny way of distorting the truth. Numbers can be made to support an argument or flat out lie. You'll find people aren't always so forthcoming about their opinions. It's like racism. 95% of people think they aren't racist.

Well, then you're just being stubborn and basing opinions on your own assumptions. I don't blame you, but In the end, everyone else's anecdotal evidence negates yours and all we're left with is a consistent majority approval rating for the repeal of DADT and a proven model of success in other nations.

Edit: And despite your stubbornness, it still stands that it is not right to legislate to the most homophobic, racist, sexist, etc. among us. No matter how difficult you think it will be.