In the news today

[Sapphire]

Politics is bad theater.

[enkoujin]

So the basic consequences with foreign investments in the US debt would result in...

• investments in the US debt devalued
• job losses throughout the world
• prolonged or a double-dip global recession (less aid to poor nations)
• spiked interest rates
• deflation (though, stagflation can occur...anybody's guess)

What makes me wonder is why many of the people (or stereotypical/media-portrayed ones) are extremely reluctant and sensitive to paying more taxes to create jobs or support other people with lower economic statuses. I do understand that there are a lot of people out there who try to abuse benefits from the government for their own good, but I strongly believe that there are an equal, if not more, amount of that portion that really do need it to get through.

I also think that the US educational system should be revamped where students, starting from kindergarten or their first year, should be taught how to spend their money. I watched PBS a week ago called "Biz Kids" and it was a wonderful program that, through the use of melodramatic and lame sketches, taught the importance of consumerism that I believe should be reinforced in citizens today.

There is no way that one is benefiting if one has to spend money to get Air Mile Rewards, buy estates with a 40-80 year amortization period contract, use a credit card to buy everything that tempts them and buying/selling debt and generally spending money that they don't have/buying [luxurious] material possessions that they do not need.

In my opinion, but then again, I'm a guy who always pays by cash and doesn't have a credit rating because I don't have credit cards.

[Sapphire]

I watched PBS a week ago called "Biz Kids" and it was a wonderful program that, through the use of melodramatic and lame sketches, taught the importance of consumerism that I believe should be reinforced in citizens today.

I don't think public schools should teach ideals in any way shape or form. I went to HS in Texas and they basically said premarital sex causes you to have sex with everyone that other person had sex with and gives you AIDS and herpes.

[enkoujin]

It depends on the curriculum, thought and context the educational system is based on.

In this context, teaching the basics of essential consumerism is crucial for preventing debts and crises. There are usually three reasons, in my point of view, that a person should borrow money to use:

1. Post-secondary Education
2. Mortgage (that one can actually afford to pay off in a reasonable ~20 years)
3. Business (that has a high chance of succeeding)

From my personal experience, ever since I was in elementary/primary school, I've been bombarded with anti-smoking, anti-illicit-drug use, anti-theft... essentially, anti-debauchery ads, lectures and propaganda and I consider myself to have been proudly indoctrinated without doing any of those things thus far. I, to this day, fail to see how any of the practices I have mentioned will benefit one's health by physical, mental and spiritual means (while financial lessons will benefit a lot in reducing stress and living a better quality of life).

I have seen my peers fall victim to these disdainful practices so it'll never penetrate the ends of the Gaussian curve as per usual, but it will get a majority of the curve to think smarter; thus, this will increase the chances of prevention and that is what matters to preventing latent crises like these.

[Sapphire]

From my personal experience, ever since I was in elementary/primary school, I've been bombarded with anti-smoking, anti-illicit-drug use, anti-theft... essentially, anti-debauchery ads, lectures and propaganda and I consider myself to have been proudly indoctrinated without doing any of those things thus far.

Yeah that's my point. I basically see it as another few millions of dollars trying to teach questionable ideals people who will probably ignore it anyway (due to their own choices, or the fact that bad teachers don't get fired, etc.).

Or you'll end up with 7 year olds drinking Starbucks. :O

[enkoujin]

Are you trying to say that teachers reinforcing beneficial concepts everyday will ironically result in opposite trends?

I wouldn't know anything about the US educational system, but take for example the situation of smoking in Canada, tobacco use has decreased by 25% in youth from 1999-2009. Yes, it's very slow, but it's also something that the educators and the government will have to work on consistently to see progressive results. The culture of smoking is slowly dying in Canada from effective government regulation and prevention.

As a fiscal conservative, I understand that no one likes taxes (not even the poor) because of the way the money is handled by politicians. However, there are times when one has to change their nature and say that it's time to make a couple directional changes before one steers directly into a storm, even if some of the money gets misplaced, redirected or used through the process.

If people learn to control their temptation by saving their money and paying their taxes, the global economy wouldn't be in such a big mess right due to the spending mentality that everyone knows they have. Instead, financial engineers developed a credit-driven world which allows for even the most irresponsible people to spend thousands of dollars in personal debt and, even worse, pay lawyers to fight against the IRS to lower taxation.

In conclusion, I don't really know how the US government should solve this problem in the long term because I have no educational background in the world of financing. From my perspective, I think that the US government should raise the debt ceiling for now to prevent a degradation of credit rating, introduce a slowly progressive tax % increase for everyone next year up to a certain percentage in a given period, give tax breaks to small businesses when hiring new employees, regulate volatile sectors that have the potential to derail like Wall Street and cut spending on unimportant services/agencies like the Botanic Garden, standardize the US educational system federally and give each state the power to use their money under federal moderation (if this hasn't already been done).

Edit: This is actually pretty ridiculous and hilarious at the same time:

Apple holding more cash than USA

[Buffalobiian]

Are you trying to say that teachers reinforcing beneficial concepts everyday will ironically result in opposite trends?

What she's saying is that schools should teach facts, not ideals. She believes that ideals can be twisted by the people teaching it, or the society that's trying to reinforce it. Children should be taught facts, and should come up with their own ideals.

What is considered a "beneficial" ideal may not be considered such by another.

[Sapphire]

What she's saying is that schools should teach facts, not ideals. She believes that ideals can be twisted by the people teaching it, or the society that's trying to reinforce it. Children should be taught facts, and should come up with their own ideals.

What is considered a "beneficial" ideal may not be considered such by another.

Thanks.

From my perspective, I think that the US government should raise the debt ceiling for now to prevent a degradation of credit rating, introduce a slowly progressive tax % increase for everyone next year up to a certain percentage in a given period, give tax breaks to small businesses when hiring new employees, regulate volatile sectors that have the potential to derail like Wall Street and cut spending on unimportant services/agencies like the Botanic Garden, standardize the US educational system federally and give each state the power to use their money under federal moderation (if this hasn't already been done).

Oh, they're successful? Regulate them. We're broke? Tax them. No one's educated? Standardize them.

Raising taxes because the government can't manage or pay it's debts is like punishing the victim. Do you have any idea how much Americans are taxed already? And yet the solution for debt and money trouble is always to raise taxes, and the person saying this is usually completely ignorant of the burden it might cause other people.

I remember HS Economics saying that raising taxes is is a logical solution for a problem, just because the problem exists. And everyone soaked it up like sponges, without question. Teaching young impressionable children ideals in this manner is called indoctrination, and that's the death of a healthy people.

[Buffalobiian]

Do you have any idea how much Americans are taxed already?

Less than Australians.

[Sapphire]

Less than Australians.

How much do Australians get taxed?

[Buffalobiian]

How much do Australians get taxed?

http://www.ato.gov.au/youth/content....tent/40811.htm

[Carnage]

Thanks.

Raising taxes because the government can't manage or pay it's debts is like punishing the victim. Do you have any idea how much Americans are taxed already? And yet the solution for debt and money trouble is always to raise taxes, and the person saying this is usually completely ignorant of the burden it might cause other people.

I remember HS Economics saying that raising taxes is is a logical solution for a problem, just because the problem exists. And everyone soaked it up like sponges, without question. Teaching young impressionable children ideals as if it's "right" is called indoctrination, and that's the death of a healthy people.

American's aren't over grossly taxed, the richest just arent paying their fair share. Forbes claims that the 400 richest Americans pay an average rate of 18%, far below the 40% they should be paying. Government spending is out of control, but a large chunk of our debt comes from the Bush tax cuts. Yes it is stupid to tax the average middle class tax payer more because in all likelihood they are paying as much as they can afford; but the wealthiest 1% of our population isn't the victim.

I dont know about your highschool class, but in actual economics raising taxes isn't simply an ideology, there are scientific methods to predict the outcome and effect on the economy.

And furthermore, its fairly difficult to completely separate perspective and opinion from subjects that involve people and social issues. Its fine for a doctrine to lead a class such as economics so long as it is supplemented critical thinking. If the HS Economics course indeed claimed that raising taxes is a logical solution, then there should have been a logical explanation to accompany the solution.

[Sapphire]

American's aren't over grossly taxed, the richest just arent paying their fair share. Forbes claims that the 400 richest Americans pay an average rate of 18%, far below the 40% they should be paying.

Why do you think that rich people should be taxed 40%?

Government spending is out of control

Agreed.

I dont know about your highschool class, but in actual economics raising taxes isn't simply an ideology, there are scientific methods to predict the outcome and effect on the economy.

Good point. Who's up for a discussion on Keynesian economics?

If the HS Economics course indeed claimed that raising taxes is a logical solution, then there should have been a logical explanation to accompany the solution.

Agreed.

[Carnage]

Why do you think that rich people should be taxed 40%?

I was more pointing out to the claim you made "Do you have any idea how much Americans are taxed already?". Yes the average American I would say is always paying a large amount of money on what could be spent on consumer goods, needs, etc, and raising taxes on them will simply cause more pain than good. But tax rates for the wealthy have been the lowest they've been since the Eisenhower Presidency. If you compare the 35% tax rate to the entire 20th century, it would be ridiculous to only now believe they are relatively large. When you consider the fact that its not actually 35%, but more likely 15-25% because of tax loopholes, then the rich aren't feeling it at all next to the rest of the nation. The Bush tax cuts have already been responsible for nearly $3 trillion of our debt, if we both cut spending and raise revenue by taxing then you will see the deficit shrink at a surprising rate.

[enkoujin]

What she's saying is that schools should teach facts, not ideals. She believes that ideals can be twisted by the people teaching it, or the society that's trying to reinforce it. Children should be taught facts, and should come up with their own ideals.

Thanks for clearing that up; whether being smart with money is a way of life or not, I still think that smart consumerism is better for humanity, a nation-state and the individuals themselves. The only people I see losing out on this would be the business-owners, but I think it's about time that these oligopolies become more competitive than they already are.

Oh, they're successful? Regulate them. We're broke? Tax them. No one's educated? Standardize them.

I won't deny the privileges that some businesspeople have earned themselves is totally wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with regulation either. Even the hard-working and money-wise American, being productive members of society, by paying their taxes are the same as the people you group as "victims" as well. They don't really have much of a say in spending money either.

I didn't know how much Americans were already taxed and now that I've looked it from a basic viewpoint of marginal tax rates, it's fair enough. Assuming Carnage's facts are correct, these people who have evaded paying their full taxes should be prosecuted using the fullest extent of the law. This also reminds me that off-shore banking done in the US should also be regulated rigorously as well.

If rules are set, people should play by the rules. If more new rules come into play, people just have to learn how to adapt and play by new rules. It's kind of like the short story contest going on where you introduce a new rule that says that people may edit their stories after the first round. People, and especially businesspeople, should all be about flexibility to compete for their shares in the market.

And yet the solution for debt and money trouble is always to raise taxes, and the person saying this is usually completely ignorant of the burden it might cause other people.

So if the US keeps on spending and spending without more taxation to level the amount of spending, how do you propose to help this situation? The governments are always going to spend money as long as there is a need to control crime, ensure the safety of material goods (food, medicine, consumer products) and provide other social services. You can keep on cutting and cutting, which I don't have a problem with, but you'll have to wait for several decades just to pay off that $14.3 trillion debt. The only way to get out of debt faster is to raise taxes and cut spending; getting out of debt will let the US avoid becoming a third-world country, decreasing its standard of living and losing its superpower status in the world.

I just don't see how anyone can refute that. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about increasing government services or spending - just more regulation to prevent crises like this (using funds transferred from unimportant government agencies or investments), more cuts to government spending because it is, indeed, out of control and that taxation is a good thing for your own country (unless this was a ploy to devalue the US currency and increase exports).

...if we both cut spending and raise revenue by taxing then you will see the deficit shrink at a surprising rate.

Thank you.

[Buffalobiian]

I didn't know how much Americans were already taxed and now that I've looked it from a basic viewpoint of marginal tax rates, it's fair enough. Assuming Carnage's facts are correct, these people who have evaded paying their full taxes should be prosecuted using the fullest extent of the law. This also reminds me that off-shore banking done in the US should also be regulated rigorously as well.

Tax evasion and tax avoidance are two different things, I should say. "Loophole" implies there's a hole for you to go through without "breaking" any law on your way through - that's tax avoidance - and you can blame the maker of the "hole" for that one.

Tax evasion is an offence.

[Edort4]

Problem with tax avoidance is that usually the ones that can really take advantage of it are the wealthy people. The average tax payers cant spend the money those tax "experts" cost cause you need continous support it isnt something you just make the weeks before tax paying. Its a full year strategy so it ends being expenseive and even if you would get any consultant the amout average people would save would be minimal (20% of 1000$ is not the same as 20% of 1m$, even if they want to make it sound the same) So I dont see how that can be fair for average citizens and not something to eradicate or at least compensate.

[Animeniax]

Problem with tax avoidance is that usually the ones that can really take advantage of it are the wealthy people. The average tax payers cant spend the money those tax "experts" cost cause you need continous support it isnt something you just make the weeks before tax paying. Its a full year strategy so it ends being expenseive and even if you would get any consultant the amout average people would save would be minimal (20% of 1000$ is not the same as 20% of 1m$, even if they want to make it sound the same) So I dont see how that can be fair for average citizens and not something to eradicate or at least compensate.

Right on. It also helps to know the intricacies of the tax code so you can understand how to make it work for you or your client (what is deductible, what exemptions you qualify for and then provide the paperwork to apply for it). You don't have to be a lawyer/financial expert/accountant/tax pro, but your average person won't know the code like these types of people do.

I think it's like anything, though usually on a smaller scale. Take auto maintenance for instance. Since you're busy with your family and accounting job, you don't have time to learn how to fix cars yourself. If you don't know the ins and outs of automobiles, you'll pay $$$ for someone to take care of it.

[enkoujin]

Obama announces US deficit deal between party leaders

Well, I guess the politicians avoided that one for now. I wouldn't be surprised if this issue came back up again in a few months like it has since the beginning of this year.

[Edort4]

I believe that this all is a charade and even in the unthinkable scenario that they vote NO I think Obama has the power to rise debt ceiling unilaterally.

Anyway this has a lot of consecuences all over the world. I loled at Putin saying USA lives as a parasite of global economy.

http://edition.cnn.com/video/flashLi....html?stream=1
http://www.c-span.org/Live-Video/C-SPAN/