Shooting at Virginia Tech, 32 people killed (gunman included)

[rockmanj]

i agree with RZ, but actually I'm not suprised at all but Valeur's comments at all. I mean, I live there, and I know many people that share that world view in SK. I mean, most people arent like that, but I've met a fair share that unequovically hate Japanese people, Americans, and to a greater extent, Americans not of European descent. That being said I don't believe anyone's death should be celebrated, be they American, Iraqi, or whatever. And yea, the gunman was a 23 year old Korean national...who had serious problems; the guy needed help, cause he was a NUT http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070417/..._tech_shooting

[Kraco]

And hunters should just go fuck themselves. Find a more challenging sport then picking on ants who can't even defend themselves.

The game populations need to be thinned annually in any case. I think it reasonable to allow willing people to hunt, because regions that don't have lots of large carnivores would otherwise overflow with prey animals. It would fall to the police, army, or professionals otherwise. If the animals are going to be killed anyway, why not allow anyone willing and qualified enough (and rich enough) to kill them?

Real hunting rifles are kind of harder to hide when walking around a campus, nor can they be reloaded so easily or have so large magazines.

[Terracosmo]

There exists a select percentage of people in this world who truly deserves rape, torture & murder. Some americans, africans, arabs, hell, even swedes, are among these people.

But to say that a bunch of innocent students are among those who deserve to get slaughtered because they happen to live in a country in which a big amount of those who truly deserve to die live... well, that's pure idiocy.

Val, I can only express my deepest sorrow over the fact that your father died AFTER inseminating some poor woman with a disgusting individual such as you.

People like you, with your fucking "REVENGHSCH!!" talk are the reason why society is an enormous pile of fail.

[DB_Hunter]

Deviating slightly from the current discussion, did you guys hear how apparantly the NRA has said that this incident has highlighted why people need more guns, not less? Their argument was that if the students were armed they could have defended themselves. I'm not sure if the picture posted earlier was a direct reference to this or some earlier incident, but it sure is some perverse logic.

I'm not really famliar with the gun debate in the US, but from what I have understood there are two main points from the NRA,

a) It's the right of every American to bear arms due to the 2nd amendment
b) Guns don't kill people, people do

I have to say that despite the tragedy that has occured, you can't fault the arguments of the NRA. Of course they are being extremely cynical in order to make a profit, but what how would you guys respond to these arguments?

[SK]

I agree Americans should be allowed to defend themselves with firearms, however I think the NRA oversimplifies things as seemingly every organization and politician in the U.S. does. Obviously the University fucked up, the Police fucked up, and that led to 32 people being killed.

[Valeur]

I am sorry if my post has offended anyone. I did not mean to act racist, but was just giving my own personal opinion.

I was not just blurting out random accusations just to piss people off, but that is how I really feel. And I do feel entitled to my own opinion. If thousands of Iraqi’s have been killed in a span of several years because of corrupt U.S. diplomacy, then what are 32 students? Its not as though every American shits his pants everyday over the amounts of deaths that come in weekly from Iraq. If you make a big deal out of 32 dead university students, then you should also make that much of a deal for every 32 people that have been killed not only Iraq, but other country’s such as Afghanistan and Darfur.

It seems to me as though the U.S. government is a bigger threat to the world than anyone else, seeing as how they’re the only ones to have used a nuclear bomb on civilians. And you Americans are still supporting U.S. policy. The only reason people are pissed at Bush is not because he started the war in Iraq, but because he lost it. There wasn’t nearly as much opposition in the U.S. towards its own government when this whole mess began, which is proof that people aren’t really against the war, but are against his failure.

It’s about time you people got a cold slap in the face and came to reality. The tyranny of the United States must end! If it takes bloodshed like Columbine and VT to make you understand what you are doing to children all over the world by polluting us with violence, capitalism and ‘democracy’ then so be it…Americans must understand that there are consequences to your actions.

[Carnage]

DB, did you even read my first post?

"The American Fore-fathers knew shit would need to change, thats why we went from the Bill of rights all the way to the 27 amendments we have now. Who needs a gun? Its not like you can ever use it when you need to anyway. When the asshole points a gun to your face, your not going to reach into your pocket to pull out the gun, otherwise he'll just pull the trigger on you."

And as for huntng, Im sure nature would find a way to kill off overpopulation. Disease would probably spread amongst the deer in overcroweded areas, godwilling humans remain immune to Dear disease. Im not an expert, so I could be wrong, but I think predators of Deer are afraid of big cars with big headlights. I dont think they would dare come into a human town and start eating people. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Terracosmo]

If thousands of Iraqi’s have been killed in a span of several years because of corrupt U.S. diplomacy, then what are 32 students?

This, I agree with. But that doesn't even come close to justyfing why someone would want innocents to die for the sake of "revenge", because the innocent people who end up getting killed usually don't even have anything to do with all the terrible things that occur in the world.

Also, stuff like this gets blown up so much because frankly most people don't give a shit about how many dies outside of their borders. It's all about media and selling the best piece of news.

[masamuneehs]

I am sorry if my post has offended anyone. I did not mean to act racist, but was just giving my own personal opinion.

If you make a big deal out of 32 dead university students, then you should also make that much of a deal for every 32 people that have been killed not only Iraq, but other country’s such as Afghanistan and Darfur.

It seems to me as though the U.S. government is a bigger threat to the world than anyone else, seeing as how they’re the only ones to have used a nuclear bomb on civilians. And you Americans are still supporting U.S. policy.

If it takes bloodshed like Columbine and VT to make you understand what you are doing to children all over the world by polluting us with violence, capitalism and ‘democracy’ then so be it…Americans must understand that there are consequences to your actions.

1. I'm actually very glad I unbanned you after all.

2. I agree in principle, but there are two problems with that: Lack of knowledge (whether created by interference from the govt, simple lack of knowledge, or ignorance) and the undeniable fact that media is just another industry. What you see as 'people caring' is really just how much media coverage that industry gives things. That coverage is planned out in order to capture viewers/purchasers who will consume the media coverage of the event. The media should give as much attention to other tragedies as they did in this case, but modern media simply doesn't operate like that.

3. First part granted, although it means alot less than people always make it out to be. "You Americans supporting US policy" is a misconception on your part. This is simply not true! It's well documented that many Americans, a majority as of recent, disagree with a great deal of the Bush Administration's foreign policy. Just because I live in America doesn't mean I support it.

Besides, I can imagine that a great deal of similarly-thinking Islamists would look at you, and judging you by your own criteria conclude that you, a citizen of a country that is openly allied with the U.S., you too support U.S. foreign policy.

So, for you to somehow claim that these 32 (would you count the shooter as a victim as well?) are valid military targets for some cause that clearly was not associated with the Virgina shootings, simply because they were born in the U.S. is quite a foolish thing for you to suggest.

4. Once again, this random act of violence does nothing to further whatever twisted "cause" you wish it would support. The simple fact that you invent a connection between this isolated act of evil and your own warped ideaology strongly suggests that you are a sick, sad and desperate person whose enjoys the suffering of others. Your fantastic, non-sensical political sentiments seem to be a very bare, very thin attempt to veil a sadistic and cowardly enjoyment of violence.

Your political ramblings don't hold water here because this is not an internationly political event. Nobody will look at this event and agree with you that "these are the consequences of America's foreign policy". As suggested by other posts in this thread, there are very serious domestic and socio-cultural issues to be discussed in light of re-occuring school shootings.

edit - goddamned terracosmo, you are not the one i'd expect to cut in front of my post and work out several debatable counters along almost the same line of thinking as I follow.

[DB_Hunter]

@Carnage: Sorry dude, I did read your post but wanted to hear what other people thought too.

@Valeur: I agree with you in terms of the of hypocrisy being shown over these deaths in terms of the numbers game. Yes 32 people are insignificant compared to the 1 million plus that have been killed in Iraq due to sanctions and the war.

However, I think it is incorrect to reduce discussion of the tyrannical policies of the US government to a mere numbers game. The point is that every innocent life lost to opression is a tragedy, be it American or Iraqi, Muslim or Christian. This guy who went on the rampage didn't even have justice on his mind, rather he was consumed apparantly by being dumped by his girlfriend.

I would also say that you should consider the number of Americans who oppose the policies of the US. Not everyone is an evil oppressor the like of Bush and his government. Bush and Co would love you to believe that America is united behind his government, buts its not the case.

As for those American's who are turning against Bush because of his failure in Iraq rather than as a point of principle, then I agree those people are scum in my opinion. But some of the growing opposition is also a realisation by Americans of the propaganda and lies Bush has been pumping out, so think about that also.

[darkmetal505]

Valeur, it is definitely the media who blows the deaths out of proportions. The fact that the deaths occured in a school setting rather than a war zone is the main reason why we are frustrated by it. It's not a matter of numbers, it is a matter of feeling safe in our own schools and cities. Frankly, the "tyranny" that you describe affecting other countries won't end as a result of multiple school shootings unless they become directly related to terrorists from the outside, in which case the VT incident was not ... er if it was, it hasn't been revealed, but I doubt it.

[rockmanj]

That's a realyl hardline stance, there, and i actually do agree about the whole tyranny of the US, but like a lot of other people said, not everyone supports that sort of ideology, and the media controls what image "we" Americans are given. Yes, i know the US basically practices modern-day colonialism, and yes, living in Korea, i see how some of those soldiers act like damned fools, and ive seen it in other countries too; so i kind of see where you are coming from. However, its wrong to think that everyone in America is an ignorant sheep. That's like any other group ostracizing the whole of another group for the actions of a hew...

[KitKat]

I'm not sure if I can add much to what masamuneehs and everyone else have so eloquently said, but I'd just like to address the "us vs. them" attitude that I see. Valeur, I'm still not convinced of your intentions here, whether you actually want to discuss this with us, or if you just came to start an argument or vent your frustrations. However, a majority of the people who visit these forums are not American at all. Those Americans who do frequent here have their issues with their government, and are by no means passive bystanders to global events. I understand your frustration, but celebrating the deaths of innocent college kids is not a constructive way to express that. The most powerful force for change in America is the voices of the American people, and by alienating them, you lose your best hope for change. Why not try working together with Americans in cooperation to raise the issues you want addressed?

[Valeur]

Let me tell you a story. Its about this kid. He goes around stealing all the neighborhood bicycles and is generally a bad kid. One day after a couple of years of being the bad kid, he gets hit by a car. Guess what, no one feels bad. Why? Because he pissed off everyone.

People America has attacked.
France, Mexico, Spain, the UK, Algiers, Tripoli, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Greece, Indonesia, Argentina, Peru, Samoa, China, Turkey, Nicaragua, Japan, Uruguay, Republic of New Grenada, Angola, Taiwan, Colombia, Hawaii, Korea, Egypt, Haiti, Chile, Brazil, Venezuela, Syria, Dominican Republic, Honduras, Morocco, China, Soviet Union, Netherlands, Greenland, Iceland, Germany, Bulgaria, Hungary and Romania.

And i am missing a lot of places.

Just like how when the kid who was a bad ass got hit by the car and no one cared when America gets a few scratches the rest of the world looks at the damage they have done and really could care less what happens to the USA.

For the short time the USA has been in existence they have caused the most wars out of any country. Lets also not mention that the USA falls out side of the rest of the worlds norms.

Like Murders by guns. America has more than any other place. Even if you look at it per capita. In America most serial killers are male while the rest of the world they are female.

If your society were not so corrupt maybe people would have forgiveness for you. but you just keep charging on with "The American way" and "Democracy works!" No mater what the consequences.

[Assassin]

Let me tell you a story. Its about this kid. He goes around stealing all the neighborhood bicycles and is generally a bad kid. One day after a couple of years of being the bad kid, he gets hit by a car. Guess what, no one feels bad. Why? Because he pissed off everyone.

Do the terms generalization and over simplification mean anything to you? You liken a hypothetical kid with 300 million people, nearly all of whom have differing backgrounds, and some that aren't even "american". Living in america or holding a green card doesn't necessarily make you american.

Just like how when the kid who was a bad ass got hit by the car and no one cared when America gets a few scratches the rest of the world looks at the damage they have done and really could care less what happens to the USA.

And you represent the rest of the world? You have dont have the right to speak on behalf of 6 billion people, the majority of who are decent human beings who see the sufferings of others, and dont let political borders blind them to the needs of thier fellow human beings.

For the short time the USA has been in existence they have caused the most wars out of any country. Lets also not mention that the USA falls out side of the rest of the worlds norms.

Like Murders by guns. America has more than any other place. Even if you look at it per capita. In America most serial killers are male while the rest of the world they are female.

I dont know about the female serial killer thing, so you'll have to provide some stats. But i do agree about the US causing more then its share of problems world wide. They've adopted double standards in nearly every aspect of thier government, and there are more then enough reasons to convict nearly half the politicians (of the executive branch atleast) of this and previous governments. However, unless any of those 31 unfortunate souls were secretly working for Bush as his personal aide, they cannot he held responsible for the actions of thier government.

If your society were not so corrupt maybe people would have forgiveness for you. but you just keep charging on with "The American way" and "Democracy works!" No mater what the consequences.

Forgiveness? i think you meant sympathy, as this particular event requires has no need for forgiveness. In any case, people do have sympathy for those who were killed and thier families. Just because you are full of idiotic ideals and unjustified (and wrongful) hatred, doesn't mean the rest of the world is as well.

[darkmetal505]

You're treating America as an entity when there is actually about 100 different major opinions floating around. Not everyone wants to be the "badass" America that you claim we are.

Again you are confusing the intention on which America attacked others. If you look at it in context, America was either protecting its own soil or doing something that all the other major powers were also participating in. A majority of these conflicts come from WWI, WWII, and Cold War tensions in which we weren't blatantly blowing coutries off the face of the Earth.

No one is saying we are perfect either.

Ideals and pre-concieved notions play a huge role in your argument. I suggest you look both ways before crossing the street.

[Assassin]

I'm not really famliar with the gun debate in the US, but from what I have understood there are two main points from the NRA,

a) It's the right of every American to bear arms due to the 2nd amendment
b) Guns don't kill people, people do

I have to say that despite the tragedy that has occured, you can't fault the arguments of the NRA. Of course they are being extremely cynical in order to make a profit, but what how would you guys respond to these arguments?

In response to DB_Hunter's question: (i was originally gonna edit my post but then darkmetal505 posted >.>)

a) As carnage or whoever pointed out, the reasons for the 2nd ammendmant are no longer there. And if they are (you could technically look at the bush gov't as a authoratarian power), then the 2nd ammendmant has failed already anyway. It may have been benificial in earlier times to carry a gun to protect yourself and you're beliefes or whatever, but in modern society it does more harm then good.

b) Completely true. It's people who kill people....however to use that as a reason to justify more lax gun laws or even gun ownership is just stupid. Would the VT gunman still have gone on a murderous rampage if he didn't have a gun? quite possibly. But how many people do you think he would've been able to kill with his bare hands? even if he had a knife, or hell, a sword (lets assume that he's physically capable of wielding a sword, which i doubt he would have been considering he was described as a loner english major), he would have wounded a few people, maybe killed the person in the dorm. But there is no way in hell he could kill 31 people with any weapon other then a gun.

So ya, guns dont kill people. But they do make killing people a hell of a lot easier.

[saman]

Let me tell you a story. Its about this kid. He goes around stealing all the neighborhood bicycles and is generally a bad kid. One day after a couple of years of being the bad kid, he gets hit by a car. Guess what, no one feels bad. Why? Because he pissed off everyone.

yes, but the thing is, the people who died in this shooting didn't do anything. they are, in fact, not "the bad kid". their cause of death wasn't even related to national politics! it was just some messed up guy who got too triggerhappy with his recent arms purchase. your opinion on the politics and status of the U.S. nonwithstanding, you're just getting all vindictive for no reason.

Just like how when the kid who was a bad ass got hit by the car and no one cared when America gets a few scratches the rest of the world looks at the damage they have done and really could care less what happens to the USA.

you say that the rest of the world doesn't care less what happens to the USA, yet you're here gloating about the deaths of innocent people. how the hell can you say you don't care when you swagger in here and start talking about how these people deserved to die because they were sinners. according to your inferential reasoning, "one man has killed a number of people. zomg we must destroy all men!" or, alternatively, i could say to you, "this korean guy killed a number of people. death to all koreans!"

yes, fine, the U.S. isn't perfect in the least. a fair bit of people are not happy with the way things are run, but nothing justifies killing innocent people, for any reason.

--

anyway, it's kind of pissing me off how the news and media people are making such a big deal about this guy being korean. it's like they're saying, "haaay gaiz it's okay the kid wasn't from around here our national identity is safe lolz"

[complich8]

And as for huntng, Im sure nature would find a way to kill off overpopulation. Disease would probably spread amongst the deer in overcroweded areas, godwilling humans remain immune to Dear disease. Im not an expert, so I could be wrong, but I think predators of Deer are afraid of big cars with big headlights. I dont think they would dare come into a human town and start eating people. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

No, in fact. Deer's natural predators mainly consist of wolves and cougars. Wolves and cougars are largely not present in much of the US, due to the presence of people. Top tier predators require large ranges, and having a giant grid of farmland and roads and fences doesn't quite lend itself to that. Further, wolves in particular are known to take livestock, causing many local farmers not to tolerate them. Incidentally, only top-tier predators can take deer, and deer are even work for a small pack of wolves, which will typically pick smaller, lower-risk game given the option.

In the absence of natural predators, it's not disease that kills deer, it's starvation. Anyone with the slightest ounce of humanity realizes that it's a lot less cruel for a portion of the population to die by being shot by a skilled hunter than for a larger portion of the population to die of starvation. Further, when the population starves to death, it for the most part starves wholesale -- available food in the winter simply runs out, and nothing eats.

Deer overpopulation is also a significant human problem. Deer get driven into cities and suburbs, looking both for food and for territory. They get hit by cars, causing not only deer deaths but human death. They destroy property. They raze farmland. In short, deer overpopulation quickly becomes a problem to more than just the deer.

Regular culling of deer is the ONLY way, absent abandoning our cities and farms and restoring the wolf population to its natural levels, to prevent this in areas where deer thrive. Any ecologist worth calling an ecologist will generally tell you that.

Near my hometown, Fermi National Accelerator Laboratory has a nature preserve area consisting of a forest and a prairie, and a herd of bison (all within city limits, where it's illegal to discharge a firearm except in certain situations), Once a year they close it off, and a team of professional marksmen goes through and culls the deer population. Every couple of years they also light portions of their prairie area on fire. If they were to stop culling the deer, they would need a small pack (3-5) of wolves. The wolf pack would (a) not respect the boundaries of the half a square mile of forest, and (b) not respect the lives of the neighboring pets. Or they would die on the fairly busy nearby road. Either way, natural predators are not an option.

This has nothing to do with Virginia Tech, or insane shooters, and is only marginally tangential in that it has to do with gun control. None of this has anything to do with a perceived American imperialism.

(I was going to post this like 2 hours ago, but got distracted. I'll probably have something to say about the rest of the thread when I read it )

[Assassin]

Heh, since you're reminded me now, i mite as well give my 2 cents on the whole hunting issue.

The way i see it, the best way to control the rampant gun violence would be to get rid of guns all together and only allow police/military personal (and the occasional security guard or whatever) to carry them. This wont be a problem for hunters, if -rather then buying/owning guns or hunting rifles- hunters were issued the guns on location.

For example, set up a shop run by the regional/federal hunting authority near the hunting grounds where, instead of buying beer, the hunters would recieve guns. The only thing the hunters need is a valid hunting liscence, and the on-location shop provides then gun (free of charge ofcourse) and a case or two of ammo (or however much is a reasonable amount for a hunting trip). Any additional ammo could be bought at the shop, and the guns/ammo returned once the trip is over.

That way, hunters have thier fun, the catostrophic deer over population issue () is solved, and the only guns in the city are the ones used to protect the citizens.

And before people start poking holes in the theory, keep in mind im not submitting it for official approval or anything. Its just a very basic premise of a possible solution.