Naruto 347

[Winged Dancer]

Suigetsu was seen to be somehow contained within a water-tank of sorts, obviously by Orochimaru.

So Oroshimaru > Suigetsu.

But, as far as we know, Sauke killed Orochimaru -

Orochimaru < Sasuke

Thus, Sasuke > Suigetsu.

Of course, that doesn't have to be true. Suigetsu could be there because he wanted to - he could've been working with Orochimaru. But it seems obvious that he has some sort of friendship with Sasuke, or at least acts like he's indebted to him for releasing him from the tank.

In other words, I can't see Suigetsu attacking Sasuke any time soon. The future, however...

I can already see Suigetsu doing lots of water jutsu. I'm betting he'll have his drink close at all times - he probably needs to take a lot of water just in order to survive.

[Yukimura]

I feel that just because Sasuke beat Orochimaru doesn't mean he can beat anyone that Orochimaru was stronger than. Case in point, I haven't seen anything yet that indicates the current Sasuke could have pushed The Third into using the Reaper Death Seal (I don't remember the real name so the Toonami one will have to suffice) and thus killing him.

I think that Sasuke's Sharingan is a lot of what's giving him the upperhand in fighting. He knows what's going to happen before it happens and can see through techniques, that give him a massive advantage over most people.

That being said, I doubt that Suigetsu is a threat to Sasuke since he probably wouldn't have recruited him without sufficient confidence that he could either control him, or beat him if he stepped out of line.

[shinta|hikari]

Suigetsu probably believes that he can beat Sasuke, but unfortunately, as much as I hate to admit it, Sasuke will probably eat him alive if it comes down to it.

EDIT: Im just glad Sasuke admits that its his eye that is winning him his battles. Without his Sharingan, he will probably be only Chuunin level.

Regarding the translation of Sou kuru and Sou kita, its not come or came, since it is a set phrase used in certain contexts. If translated, it should go "So that was your plan!!" in Naruto's case, and "So that was your plan!?!" in Sakura's case (note the question mark). The translation "What a game plan!" is odd, and I couldnt really understand what it meant til I downloaded the raw.

[Winged Dancer]

On Sasuke vs. Suigetsu - Yes, that was something I forgot to say. It hasn't been made clear whether Orochimaru is dead or not - we don't have a real real corpse, to start with. And for all we know, Kabuto could try and bring him back, or something.... if he is really dead, then the whole thing just lacked closure.

I don't think that any of Sasuke's recruits will be stronger than him. As you said, Yukimura, he wouldn't have chosen them if he couldn't exert some kind of control over them.

I'm guessing Sasuke is planning to storm the Akatsuki, but his team can't be much stronger than Naruto's. It'd upset the whole manga.

[JaySee]

I thought that giant dead snake looking thing left in the room was the corpse. I still think it's debatable that he's "dead" though. I think he's just part of Sasuke now.

[itadakimasu]

reading some of those last posts.. im wondering how suigetsu* could even bring himself to openly challenge sasuke knowing that he's defeated oro....

*sigh* sasuke has grown so much im wondering at what level he is now compared to itachi.

[Munsu]

I thought that giant dead snake looking thing left in the room was the corpse. I still think it's debatable that he's "dead" though. I think he's just part of Sasuke now.

I think that is just like a snake shedding his skin, so no matter what the result was the snake corpse/skin would've been lying there, hence why Kabuto can't tell if it's Sasuke or Orochimaru... he simply could only tell that the ritual had happened.

[JaySee]

It seemed clear that Kabuto didn't know whether the ritual happened or not. So he didn't know if Orochimaru was just dead or successful with the ritual. Sasuke told him he absorbed him.

[Munsu]

Just to quote from the scanlation.

Kabuto: That's the skin of the Giant Snake. That means the ritual is already over!?

Right now... Which one are you?

So it did seem that Kabuto was aware that the ritual should've happened. But as you say, he didn't know what the conclusion of the ritual was and if Orochimaru was successful in completing it.

[JaySee]

He also says "What the hell is going on!?" and the "skin" doesn't look hollow like a snake's molted skin would. Seems to me he's just guessing it happened. It could have just been that Oro takes that form to do the ritual so he assumed it happened. It looks like a full, bloody corpse to me.

[Munsu]

He also says "What the hell is going on!?" and the "skin" doesn't look hollow like a snake's molted skin would. Seems to me he's just guessing it happened. It could have just been that Oro takes that form to do the ritual so he assumed it happened. It looks like a full, bloody corpse to me.

See, but if the corpse of the snake is a hint of an unsuccesful ritual, then there shouldn't be a confusion as to who is controlling Sasuke's body. Granted, it seems that's the form Oro takes for the ritual hence why Kabuto knows the ritual ocurred, but with the added confusion of who's controlling Sasuke's body it's reasonable to conclude that the corpse of the snake as the aftermath may just very well be a normal occurance of the conclusion of the ritual.

I think that Kabuto's "What the hell is going on!?" has to do more with him not expecting the ritual to occur so suddenly, right after he had left oro to look for his medicine.

Also, Oro's jutsu is one that transfers his soul to another body, so that seems to suggest that at the conclusion of the ritual, the corpse of the snake should still be lying there with him controlling his new body.

The only difference is that with Sasuke, he wasn't able to take control of Sasuke's body, Sasuke apparently absorbed him so at the end Sasuke is still controlling his body. No matter the outcome, the corpse of the snake would still be there.

Well even if the ritual didn't occur or start, Oro might've taken that form, and might've been killed before the ritual begun, but we know better than that... We know he did the ritual, he simply wasn't successful.

So what are we really discussing here? I think we're discussing the snake's corpse as prove of Oro's death, which I think you agreed on your first post above that it's not prove, and I think the same thing. The corpse can't be prove because it would've still been there wether the ritual was succesful or not, or wether the ritual happened or not, no matter what happened during the fight the corpse would be there (assuming that Oro went all out during the fight and showed his true form).

[Raven]

I agree with Bud - the way I see it, is that Oro's soul transfer technique is complete, just not quite the way he imagined. I don't think it's accurate to call what he's left behind a "corpse" as such; it's just the body he was previously using, which technically is now a corpse but people are saying that he's dead or that Sasuke killed him which I don't believe is true.

He transferred his soul to Sasuke just like he intended and that part was successful. Whether or not it's the Sharingan, his hatred for his brother or the sheer power of his mind, Sasuke has resisted the takeover and is in control of Oro within his own body. I think when Kabuto said "Which one are you now?" he just meant in control of Sasuke's body, rather than whether or not it's Oro henged as Sasuke or Sasuke himself.

I'm pretty sure I'm just stating the obvious here but I dunno, seems like people are getting confused or something. Seems kind of simple to me.

[JaySee]

The corpse of the snake is not a hint at an unsuccessful ritual. Like I said, he could just take that form before he does the ritual. He could have completely failed at even beginning the ritual or not even attempt it. You're assuming a false dichotomy of the ritual happened and failed or the ritual happened successfully. There's another possibility that the ritual didn't happen at all and Oro just took that form to fight.

I'm saying Kabuto didn't know if the ritual happened at all and there's no proof there for him to "know" that it happened. That is until Sasuke told him.

[Munsu]

I think you didn't read my full post, I already covered those possibilities.

I never said the corpse was a hint of an unsuccessful ritual, I said if it were a hint Kabuto wouldn't have that confusion with who's controlling Sasuke's body (different words, same message). So what does this mean? This means that a corpse of a snake is not equal to Oro's death (though a possibility), but in the case of the ritual occurring the corpse of the snake is the outcome wether successful or not.

Kabuto saying "That's the skin of the Giant Snake. That means the ritual is already over!?" is evidence enough that he thought the ritual had occurred, of course you can argue that he couldn't have known for sure it occurred, but you can't deny the fact that he thought it did and we know it did.

So right off the bat, we can eliminate any significance the corpse of the snake has as to portray what happened in the confrontation between Sasuke and Oro. As I said in my post above, no matter what events occured during their fight at the end of it there would be a corpse of a snake wether there was a ritual or not (assuming Oro went all out in his true form). The only way there wouldn't be a corpse was if Oro had killed Sasuke (or he escaped or whatever) and he didn't go through the ritual. Again, read my post above again, I think I've presented enough evidence.

[JaySee]

My mistake, I skimmed your post in a rush this morning before I had to leave. Seems we're completely on the same page.

Just for fun, I'd like to throw in another possibility. Oro's corpse in snake form may in fact be proof the ritual was attempted. The purpose of that form may only be for the ritual and not his actual "ultimate" form as everyone is presuming. This is also jab at the people arguing that Sasuke fought Oro in his "ultimate" form and Naruto didn't.

[Munsu]

Yeah, we were pretty much in the same page, just some details in the middle we had a difference of opinion on, but the end result was pretty much the same.

It's been a while since I've read old Naruto chapters, so I'm wondering if this is the first time Orochimaru has taken this form?

In his fight with Naruto, Jiraiya, or The Third, he never took that form? Well being his "ultimate" form is debatable, but Sasuke mentioning that it's his real identity and Oro didn't deny it, so we know as much.

It's really hard to judge how good this true identity of his really is... Sasuke seemed to have an easy time with him, up to the point that the poison and the seal's true purpose started to affect Sasuke, so we can't really tell the strength especially when we still don't know the range of Sasuke's potential and on how wierd the whole setting of the fight was.

It would be interesting to see if Oro goes into his true identity form, if he can change back into his last container. I have a feeling that if Oro goes into that form, he has no choice but to find a new container or remain in that form (who knows how long that form lasts) until he dies. So if anyone knows if he's taken that form before, please let me know.

So in conclusion, that true identity may very well be his ultimate form, but I don't think we can know that for certain (would need to go back and re-read and see if I missed anything), but we can assume that it's his true identity and it may very well be that he only uses it when preparing for the ritual (we don't know what are the consequences of him going into his true identity if it's not to perform the ritual).

As a side note, since his fight with The Third, I really haven't seen him use all his great jutsus (to my recollection) like the reviving of the previous Hokages... anyone knows the reason for this?

[Knives122]

Well you could say that since then he was on the defensive and just didn't feel like killing anyone or something.(Naruto did attack him after all and so did Sasuke).

That or it was in a confined space and he didn't want to blow up his nice creepy pedophile like house.

[Assertn]

As a side note, since his fight with The Third, I really haven't seen him use all his great jutsus (to my recollection) like the reviving of the previous Hokages... anyone knows the reason for this?

Well, when the 3rd sealed oro's arms, he observed that the process would ultimately seal oro's jutsu. Now, we've all been lead to believe that this isn't the case when he took that other guy's body during the sasuke chase arc, and regained control of his arms.

However......why was oro sitting on his deathbed just prior to his confrontation with sasuke? He seemed to have been suffering similiarly to the shower scene when he was awaiting sasuke's arrival during teh chase arc, so maybe switching bodies did not in fact cure him completely from the side effects of the 3rd's seal.

[darkmetal505]

However......why was oro sitting on his deathbed just prior to his confrontation with sasuke? He seemed to have been suffering similiarly to the shower scene when he was awaiting sasuke's arrival during teh chase arc, so maybe switching bodies did not in fact cure him completely from the side effects of the 3rd's seal.

He was approaching his 3-year mark, no? He probably gets extremely weak during this period. Oro was on the edge; Kabuto recognized the urgency of the situation, and in 345, he said the soul transfer should occur that day.