Claymore

[Munsu]

I'm gonna have to disagree. You only need to see the Priscilla example to disprove your assesment. Also, with the "gradual loss" you speak of, the Claymores have time to notice how they are changing and send in their Black Card. I think Claymores run the risk of Awakening if they suddenly and unexpectedly go beyond their limits.

We've only witnessed one example of a Claymore fully Awakening, and that example was of an inexperienced Claymore.

Sure, will power has something to do with it, but I don't agree with your reasons behind it.

[Kraco]

Most of the Claymores may not even know they can fight back the transformation. They have probably been told if they go above a certain limit, then that's it, they will turn into yoma and it's all over. That manner of thinking among the Claymores would be beneficial for the organization, because otherwise lots of Claymores would try to train themselves to become half-awakened (in practice just extremely strong) and not all would succeed, naturally, filling the world with Awakened beings.

So, when a regular Claymore feels she's losing it, she may send the black card thinking there's nothing she can do anymore, because fighting back and actually winning such a fight might never occur to her at all.

[shinta|hikari]

The only thing Priscilla's example proves is that she is inexperienced and has zero willpower, and kinda nuts.

What I was pointing out is the statistical fact that 4 out of 4 half awakened claymores awakened under abnormal circumstances. Like Kraco said, most claymores usually die by sending out the black card if they feel they cannot control it anymore. Since it is a gradual transformation, there cannot be a moment like in Clare's case (and everyone eleses I believe) where they suddenly overcome the urge and return to normal. Actually, I think its almost safe to say that a half awakening cannot result from a gradual loss of control for a claymore.

Priscilla is just one case, and just because she was shown first doesnt mean she is the standard. She also lacked the willpower and the reason to stay sane. Its only common sense to base it on all the facts given, and the facts point to what I concluded above.

[masamuneehs]

i sorta disagree with you too. it's true that the 4 Slashers awoke in the heat of the moment, suddenly accessing their forbidden Yoki without losing their head. But the very fact that Claymores send out black cards indicates that there's a slope, not just a sudden drop-off of self-control. Only when they lose complete control do they fully Awaken (well, maybe not by Ophelia's standards, but that bitch is nuts).

Then again, could Priscilla have come back from 50%? Or whatever? She was under alot of stress and wasn't cut out for the job in the first place, and it's true that her loss of control was gradual, but I got the feeling that once she started running after Teresa on her own, she was going to lose it no matter what (barring an unlikely early end to the battle with her killing Teresa).

The half awakened states are a little different, because some of the 4 Slashers didn't even think the time they went over their 'limit' was that big of a deal. Maybe it's difference in training, like Kraco mentioned, but maybe they're just able to climb back up the slope towards sanity. I think Ophelia, for example, would lose it completely if she even briefly awakened the way Clare or the Slashers do.

[Munsu]

The only thing Priscilla's example proves is that she is inexperienced and has zero willpower, and kinda nuts.

What I was pointing out is the statistical fact that 4 out of 4 half awakened claymores awakened under abnormal circumstances. Like Kraco said, most claymores usually die by sending out the black card if they feel they cannot control it anymore. Since it is a gradual transformation, there cannot be a moment like in Clare's case (and everyone eleses I believe) where they suddenly overcome the urge and return to normal. Actually, I think its almost safe to say that a half awakening cannot result from a gradual loss of control for a claymore.

Priscilla is just one case, and just because she was shown first doesnt mean she is the standard. She also lacked the willpower and the reason to stay sane. Its only common sense to base it on all the facts given, and the facts point to what I concluded above.

The point is that the "gradual loss" you speak off, should prevent the Claymore from even getting into a situation where she risks being Awakened, hence the system. The sudden surge of Yoki, and going beyond their limits is the important element here.

Sure, you can argue that a Claymore that has been around a long time with this "gradual loss" probably can't become half awakened, but the Claymore should send the Black Card before it gets to the point where she can't come back. Claymores don't want to become Yoma, they wan't to die human.

Still, you're mostly left with the possibility of inexperienced Claymores and Claymores who are under control of their selves actually going beyond their limits where they reach the "Awakening" state, usually because they are faced with a desperate situation where they release a huge amount of yoki suddenly. Wether they Awaken or not is probably do to some will power they posses (among other factors), but I really doubt it has anything to do with them "gradually losing" will power throughout the years.

So the point is that, yes will power is factor, but the wear and tear of the years really isn't just because the "gradual loss" of will power results in the Claymore gradually becoming a Yoma, with probably a high-percentage chance (I would think near a 100%) of the Claymore sending a Black Card.

Sure, these 4 Slayers may have been in some special circumstances. But Claymores that are subjected to these special circumstances with possibilites of Awakening or Half-Awakening should be "in good health" in the first place. So the question is why did these 4 Claymores only half-awakened among other healthy Claymores that went beyond their limits to the Awekening state? I think experience, some inner strength play a huge role, and more importantly, some unique outside forces that kept them from Awakening (Raki, Ophellia's threat, etc.). We really don't have anyone else to compare them to, only to Priscilla who was inexperienced and Awakened and Clare's friend who actually sent the Black Card as she was "gradually losing" her will power and becoming a yoma.

[?igma]

The only thing Priscilla's example proves is that she is inexperienced and has zero willpower, and kinda nuts.


Priscilla is just one case, and just because she was shown first doesnt mean she is the standard. She also lacked the willpower and the reason to stay sane. Its only common sense to base it on all the facts given, and the facts point to what I concluded above.

You don't seem to realize that the Priscilla event was more than just "an event". Not only is the entire story based around Priscilla, her awakening was also rather at a conveniant time. They could not dispose of Teresa without an awakening to begin with.

Every single of the Claymores estimated Priscilla's power and potential beyond the reach of that of Teresa. Only experience and age being the things which would undoubtly lead to a loss. So we send in the emotional unstable and completely untrained Priscilla to kill our most experienced Claymore in the field. Gosh what wóuld happen?

So the way I see it, it's not based on willpower only. If their training comes close to brainwashing, and to be hounest, as far as has been exposed, you might think it as such, they would never even believe in the option of beating the Awakening, perhaps they would struggle long enough to hold their previous form, in the hope that they could beat reaching their limit, thát is willpower . They would never consider going past their limit and reverting back, because they don't believe in the possibility. Willpower only works on belief. Fear is a great way of handling these invisible barriers. Fear can quickly make people lose all their willpower to begin with.

So far, I'd still consider them accidents. Accidents that are quickly being disposed off, before word of this could reach other Claymores. Although accident might be too strong, because it's obvious the male Awakened had regular visitors. Perhaps they should be calculated as anomalies. A percentage of the whole.

I'd expect nothing less from such a coldhearted organization.

[Ryllharu]

I don't think the training is all that much brainwashing. A lot of the Claymores appear to have been traumatized. The organization takes in a lot of these girls. We know that Clare has thus far been the only willing volunteer. (If that wasn't explicitly stated, that fact is all over the place used as a series description.) Priscilla obviously saw her father torn apart before her own eyes. Clare saw her idol beheaded. Ophelia seems to have an insatiable bloodlust for killing Awakeneds, so there's bound to be some trauma there. They may no longer be completely human, but I think a lot of them genuinely don't want the same thing that happened to them to happen to other girls and families. That also means they don't want to become what they hate. Remember Priscilla's key line, "If I had known it felt this good...there was really no reason at all to hold back." They Awaken just like the males do, because it feels good once they go that far. Until they are overcome by that euphoria, they still consciously want to stay "human."

This argument keeps going back and forth with little conclusion. We also appear to be saying the same sorts of things over and over. I'd like a little more information about the inner workings of the Organization, or a few more examples of Awakened Ones (this last one didn't even have a name...). Given the facts we have in the series so far, it may be prudent to wait until we have more information.

[shinta|hikari]

Actually, the wear and tear thing is proven already, and has been mentioned quite often. Claymores lose their ability to fight of the Youma in them as time goes on. You can think of this as a gradual loss of will to fight it, or the yoma energy getting too strong to fight, either way, this shows that the chance of awakening grows higher as time passes because the claymore gradually becomes unable to control their youma self.

Everyone has recognized the fact that willpower (or the ability to resist the complete youma transformation) is a factor in becoming a half-awakened, and if this factor is weakened or lowered, then the chances for half-awakening logically would become lower. There are no examples on this account, since it only is an assumption based on what has happened.

I didnt say that this was the only factor. I was actually the first one to say that special circumstances are involved, and that along with their willpower, is what caused the 4 to become half awakened (yes, stuf like Raki etc).

[Shadow Skill]

Teresa said all Claymore learn about their limits in battle. Prescilla did not know her limits, being new and all. I do believe it was stated that Prescilla was a bit psychologically unstable. So that's a clue there. :/

As for wear and tear, I have not seen it and every explanation dictates the opposite. The older Claymores have more control. :/ Teresa, never used her powers until Prescilla, but she knew her limits quite well.

Unless they receive proper rest, this could be the wear and tear you are talking about. Using their powers too much, without rest or recovering. A.K.A using powers while heavily wounded, which according to Miria, can push you over the limits quicker, a lot quicker, than if you were refreshed and have no wounds.

[shinta|hikari]

Wear and tear as in every claymore that has sent out a black card, and I assume there are quite a bit since a system actually exists for it.

EDIT - Let me clarify. Wear and tear means that as a claymore uses their Youki, they are slowly changing more and more into an awakened being. And normally, as time goes by and a claymore experiences more battles, they are forced to use their Youki in certain situations, and these uses pile up and gradually weaken their ability to fight the urge to awaken. Thats why they try to avoid using it as much as possible. This fact has already been established in the show.

[Shadow Skill]

I just watched Episode 2 again. From the explanation there, it seems like turning in to an Awakened Being, or Yoma, is more of a mental state of mind. Restraining themselves from going over the limit I assume. I guess it depends on what side gives up first, the Yoma side or the Human side. Which could explain why the mentally unstable are quick to pass their limits. They don't have the concentration or experience required to hold back their own power.

According to Clare and her friend Elena, who was turning in to a Yoma first (Despite both being made in to Claymores at the same time (Her friend starting after Clare). Her friend used her powers too much. Which most likely weakened her mentally, not physically. So I am guessing it's more of a Psychological Problem, rather than a physical one. Since she talked about Strengthening her heart first before using the Yoma powers...

So who knows. :/

[complich8]

It could also be that the "older claymores have better control" thing is somewhat a function of natural selection. Or, to put it another way, weak claymores with poor control of their powers will either be killed or awaken in desperation in a fight, where someone who has much higher inherent skill and control has a much higher life expectancy because any given fight won't push them as hard, and because they're just plain better fighters.

Here's a new one: think of yoma powers the same way you'd think of a highly addictive drug. Someone like Teresa virtually never used it, and never got addicted. Priscilla found herself outclassed and started hammering it hoping to get the edge she needed to win, and ultimately OD'ed. People who send out their black cards are the ones who recognize that they're irrevocably becoming addicts and can't fight the jones anymore, and don't want the next snapshot they see of their lives to be them in an alley shooting up.

(A similar interpretation applied with other drugs might lead to an alternate, Leary-influenced meaning for "awakening" ...)

[Shadow Skill]

I like that anaology better. Ya, it makes sense to me for some reason, despite never taking any drugs of any kind.

The abilty to resist the urge just goes away after using it so much. Couldnt have put it any better.

[jaguar04p]

It's out get it.
Eclipse - Claymore eps 13 (h264)
Eclipse - Claymore eps 13 (xvid)

[shinta|hikari]

That was just an amazing fight. I like the fact that it was more like trying to survive than depending on some power boost to get through the battle. Still, the power boost has to come somewhere, and she is gonna get it the next eps with the newly learned skill.

Having only one hand is a big disadvantage, but I hope she stays that way for a while if not forever, since it will make things much more interesting and refreshing.

[Ryllharu]

Isn't it obvious? Irene will help her attach a chainsaw to it. What better weapon against evil? There's no boomstick, but the Flash Sword will have to do.

It's either that or an old Blacksmith will attach a cannon arm.

[animus]

A cannon arm with a automated crossbow attached on top of it!

[Kraco]

I'm happy you guys aren't responsible for the script writing...

This was a very suitable end for Ophelia. It's always nice when someone ends up something she hated the most. Still, I can't help but wonder if the organization actually used her to elimate other Claymores frequently. Those that weren't to be removed by sending them to that Awakened male. I get the feeling any Claymore would be at very high risk when in her company. After all, regular Claymores are half yoma, and I think that might have been enough for the bitch to kill them (I bet she hated herself equally, as well).

This series keeps going strong. I wonder how many eps it will take before we learn what happened to Raki.

[Yukimura]

Same here about the writing comment. Anyway, Irene's new outfit was smexy as hell, even if she does only have one arm. Clare + Flashsword should = hotness.

Also notice anything odd here?

Screencap from ep13 @22:51

[Kraco]

Also notice anything odd here?

Hmm... What is odd? I didn't even recognize the character from that clip...