How about thinking a bit more simple but pervert
Perhaps to become a Claymore, the organization takes a girl, brings her together with a captured Yoma, and, well, use your imagination. Sounds gruesome, but it´d suit the series imo.
But whatever, im sure we´ll be showed what it is like to become a Clyamore.
Err, there were male claymores.
Even if it were still possible, would YOU like to see that?
EDIT - Strange enough, Milia and Clare being grope-impaled was ecchi to me.
Peace.
While I'm not denying she has genuine feelings for him (I always want series to have romance, after all), it still won't do to forget Clare was once in the exact same situation as Raki is now. Clare followed Teresa as a human kid. She knows very well that Raki doesn't want to have a normal human life away from her. Even if she now, sides reversed, could reasonably see how normal human surroundings would ensure a longer and safer life for Raki just like Teresa was trying to give Clare herself.Originally Posted by shinta|hikari
I don't know. It's a deep moral issue really: Whether you want to force protection and consequent unhappiness on someone who doesn't want it. It always pisses me off when that happens, as long as the victim is not a little child who possibly couldn't decide for him/herself. But Raki is clearly old enough to know whether he wants to live as a normal villager or a Claymore tagalong. From my point of view forcing him away for good (not what happened in this ep), even if the motive is to keep him safer, is morally wrong. Even if the happiness he could experience with Clare could only be brief.
And it's not like Claymores themselves, all in all, can expect to live very long, I think. They must know that sooner or later they will either get killed by yoma (or Awakened beings) or awaken themselves, thus losing their human side if not the very life eventually. However short or long that time ends up being for Clare, I don't consider it selfish at all for Clare to hope she could spend that time with Raki if he also wants that.
Edit: I really should try to write shorter posts, but I find it hard to compress impressions like this... Sorry about that.
This last episode is one of the best I've seen of any anime lately. I really laughed hard at the part after Ophelia said the line, "Every second counts, we mustn't fight amongst ourselves". I totally believed her, it didn't seem like an obvious joke to me at all.
What I was trying to point out was that Clare wanted to be with Raki. It wasnt about protection, or because he was insisting on it, or any moral issue at that point. Clare herself wants to seek out Raki to be together with him again, and she is willing to give out effort to do so. Like I said, it is too soon for it to be branded as romantic feelings, but I think that is where it is headed.
I just think that if her feelings for Raki were exclusively sisterly, or for family, she would not even try to look for him, since being away from her would be for his own sake. But despite knowing this fact, Clare made that promise, showing signs of selfishness (not the bad kind), and I believe acting in accordance with what she wants, not what she wants for Raki.
And I mean, just look at Clare's face in that scene. If that wasnt romantic/extremely affectionate (kind of the same thing), what the hell is?
Peace.
Romantic feelings or just friendship issues aside, this exactly is what I have problems with. Even if there was no romantic feelings on either side, it's painfully obvious Raki only wants to be with Clare. And so I say pushing him away for his own protection wouldn't be morally correct. I will never admit that condemning someone to long unhappiness is better than granting a possibly (but not necessarily - who knows the future?) shorter happiness if that's what the person himself wants. And even more so if Clare wants that as well, as you could imagine she would after what she experienced herself with Teresa. She didn't want to be left behind, and I doubt there was a romance between little Clare and Teresa. And if Clare didn't appreciate Raki's company, with her Claymore speed she could have lost the guy a long time ago.
Well, before, she only pitied Raki because it overlapped with her experience with Teresa. The same can no longer be said, since as you mentioned before, she does appreciate his company, enough in fact, to search for him wherever he may go.
I do agree with you with the transient happiness vs. prolonged stability part. It is indeed the will of the person involved that decides which is more valuable, and I believe its also true in this case, as Raki had said, he would rather die as long as he is with Clare. I do think its more than likely that Raki DOES have romantic feelings for Clare (based on the stuff he keeps saying and trying to do), but even if he didnt before, who wouldnt after what happened this episode.
Peace.
Another reason for the separation you seem to be neglecting is that if Raki isn't around he can't be used by the crazy psycho chasing Clare in any more sketchy games. Not only would Raki be putting himself at risk by staying with her he'd basically be offering the enemy an excellent weapon against Clare. Is a person with a bomb strapped to them morally right if they choose to follow around their girlfriend as the timer ticks away because they don't want to be alone before they explode?
What about Clare's feelings and her choices? Maybe she would rather have him be alive and away from her not just to protect him but to give her the best chance of surviving so they can actually meet again. Having him there just to appease his desire for being with her would just lead to them both dieing. And she doesn't seem to be at the stage where she'd rather die than make him upset.
Something that really impressed me this ep was the animation of the sensual scenes. It was the most hentai-like I've seen in a main stream show to date. The detail when Ophelia was sucking Clare's blood off her fingers as well as the expressions during the kiss were really precise and reminiscent of normal hentai animation.
Well, it's not like anybody was negletting that particular reason you mentioned, because it was the only reason around. The only gray area here is why they made it sound like there could be a long time before they meet again (which is why I reckon there could even be a time skip coming.)
I'm not sure if you are stuck to the present situation all the time, but in case you are, she of course sent him away just now so that he couldn't affect the imminent fight in a negative manner - after all, Raki realised by himself as well a moment earlier how useless he is in battle.
Otherwise I'm not sure what kind of thinking that is in the bigger picture. Some sort of cowardice and wannabe martyrdom. To send your important person to forced safety condemning both to unhappiness, but at least the other one would be safe. Well, the purpose of life isn't to be safe, so that's only twisted thinking. Though not very uncommon, and I dislike it most of the time, even if I recognize it as an important element in a multitude of stories old and new.
Even if we only take the present issue in consideration, the morality issue there is, does Clare have the right to force Raki to leave? If seen in the perspective you just mentioned, yes, but that doesnt erase the fact that Raki's own will was trampled on for the sake of Clare having less of a disadvantage against Ofelia. If trampling over someone's will isnt considered immoral to you (considering it should be left to Raki what he should do, it is his life anyway), then this discussion ends here.
Also, he isnt doing it simply because he doesnt want to be alone (thus being stupidly selfish), but because he wants to help Clare (as impratical as that is).
EDIT : Agreed with the last paragraph of the last post.
Last edited by shinta|hikari; Thu, 06-21-2007 at 08:06 AM.
Peace.
It's more than just that though, Raki apparently wants to protect Clare. It's stupid and delusional for him to think he even can, given she's much more capable than he is. Still, it's a chivalrous notion that's admirable and even harder for women to ignore. I'm not sure where it started, maybe even the first episode, seeing the loneliness she was in and hardships she faced, but Raki's need to protect Clare has grown since she had to kill Elena. He definitely seems to not want to her have to use her powers (after his discussion with Rubel, her handler), and foolishly enough wants to see her have a more peaceful life.
That's not unlike what Teresa wanted for Clare, before revenge pushed her into the Organization, and it's also the same thing Clare wanted for Raki before they left the Holy City. That is when Clare realized since she herself wanted to stay with Teresa, she really had no right to push him away either. Since then, the two of them have grown closer.
Whether it's romantic or not, the two of them both want to be together.
It's just so sad to see both clare and raki have to suffer this much..though Raki chose his own painful path.
<3 Tessa-chan! <3 Lucifus! ....chotto mate.
Actually not. The morality issue discussed here at such a length was nothing but a hypothetical point. After all, Raki wasn't forced to leave! He left by his own will, though I imagine still not too happily, after Clare confused him with that surprise kiss. Heh, of course if you think it was immoral to mess with Raki's head by kissing him, then it was indeed trampling Raki's own will. But honestly that's nothing but normal woman-man interaction, so I don't think it's any real point...
Just to clairify the frame that this discussion is in (the morality one) are you both saying that the 'moral' thing to do doesn't nessecarily have to be the smartest or most reasonable thing to do for either Clare or Raki?
If Raki stays with Clare there's a better than 0 chance that he and/or she will end up suffering/dying because of it. I'm primarily focused on the current situation in the Endless Gravestones arc, but this isn't the first time he's been used against her and probably won't be the last if they do meet up again. (Raki getting killed anyway next ep would be very interesting). Do you think it would be 'wrong' for Claire to just say, stay away from me and keep running away from him without actually convincing him not to try and follow. I would see that as self preservation in addition to an attempt to protect Raki. She ought to have the right to not suffer through watching him die as she lays there powerlessly if she doesn't want to. Though perhaps her motivations would affect how 'right' her actions would be.
EDIT: I'm coming from the perspective of Clare liking Raki in a familial perspective not a lovers, b/c I just can't see Clare thinking like that.
Last edited by Yukimura; Thu, 06-21-2007 at 11:00 AM.
I'd say it's wrong because he knows the risks yet wants to be with her. There's always some small risk in any relationship, even just friendship, of getting hurt. However, if you want to have relationships of any kind, you shouldn't think of the risks, because few people want to get a friend in order to be betrayed or a lover in order to be devastated by losing the lover. Clare can't affect the way of life she leads. So, if someone genuinely wants to be a companion, of any kind, for her fully knowing the terrible risks, I think she has the moral grounds to accept that. She might eventually suffer if the companion dies, but nevertheless she would have experienced something good before that. And the death is not inevitable.
Of course it takes a lot to accept the fact the other person would be risking his own life for no other purpose than to be with her. But under the circumstances Clare as a Claymore is living, there's no choice. A soldier going to war knows death might happen any moment. It might claim the guy next to you or you. But you just gotta keep going as long as it's not you, no matter how sad it is. I like to think they both know this and neither would let it stop them.
@Kraco - I was saying that "if" Clare forced Raki to leave, it would be wrong. I didnt say she did. I also agreed that the morality issue was a hypothetical point. Thats why I said "Even if" at the start of that paragraph.
Before we face the issue of the value and nature of relationships (which is a doozy), it should not be forgotten that no one has the right to trample on anyone's will. They have the right to do whatever they want, and if you prevent them from doing so, you are basically exercising your ability to coerce them to your own advantage, or force them into what you think is good for them.
In that sense, it is also Clare's right to do whatever she wants, but that doesnt include forcing other people to do things despite their expressed disagreement. In this case, Clare manipulated Raki in such a way that he made the decision himself (the practical decision), which means there was no moral breach, unless as Kraco said, you count kissing as such a diabolical tool (I dont personally, Raki was just stupid enough to fall for it)
@Yuki - Yes, it would be Clare's right to leave him at anytime, but that would be morally wrong (for her) on other grounds. Raki is already her responsibility, at least she believes so, and that is normally enough. She also, as mentioned, wants to stay with him.
And yes, morality has nothing to do with the smartest or most reasonable thing, for it usually contradicts that. Issues in Code Geass and Death Note come to mind as examples. (surprising how anime can become examples for questions of morality, but whatever)
Peace.
I think Clare has done her due dilligence in warning Raki about her lifestyle, and has given him every opportunity to pursue his own safety. But he and she both realize that the pursuit of happiness supersedes the pursuit of safety.
I think it's possible that Clare's thinking is becoming less claymore-like and more human-like since her half-awakening. As in, before she wasn't really capable of having romantic feelings, or at least wasn't capable of letting herself do so. But post-awakening, I think something's changed about her mindset a bit. Consider the implications of "awakening" as a bit broader than just "turning into a freaky tentacle-demon"...
I'm pretty sure Raki realized that Clare was more than a little overmatched facing Ophelia. That's precisely why he wanted to stay with her: in his mind he was faced with the prospect of either letting her go alone and losing her forever, or staying with her and dying with her. The function of the kiss and the promise to return is an assurance that she will not die, that she has something to come back for and has every intention of coming back, and is not going to throw her life away so easily as she might have before.
I thought Clare's decision was correct in from a tactical point of vew. We've been through how Rakki is metaphorically a time-bomb, and how he's not very potent at the moment. Live to fight another day. Instead of pursuing happiness that may last for, say, a couple of hours to maybe a week, Rakki could leave just for a little while, and make up that time later. And that later would last longer if he made himself stronger during his leave.
In all these hopes for seeing a stronger Raki you all seem to be forgetting something pretty basic to the show. If normal people could just train themselves enough to fight Yoma (even just regular weak garden variety Yoma) then they would never have bothered to create the ultimately inefficient and dangerous Claymores. Raki can only possibly stop being a liablity by becoming a male Claymore, which again there is a strong precedent against, as he'd likely end up awakening and having to be put down.
I don't have a problem with him following Clare around and them spending time together, but he has absolutely no business being on the battle field with her, since he can only reduce her chances of completing her tasks safely. He should just accept that he's a support character for when the battles already over instead of being a stubborn idiot and trying to do the impossible and fight Yoma all by himself.
On the other hand, he DID buy her an opportunity with Ophelia ... when she had her fingers in Clare's chest and whatnot. This despite being a human.
Also, consider that the male Awakened they faced seemed quite present of mind, hiding in human form, completely masking his yoki, etc. He knew what was up ... who's to say he didn't have full control of his appetite? Further, Awakened Priscilla seemed quite present-minded, just that she was a bit twisted even as a claymore.
I propose that if all 4 of the slashers are half-awakened, it must not be THAT unthinkable (or even that uncommon) for claymores to reach that state. Consider that that's 4 out of 47 current claymores -- roughly one in twelve of them -- all at about the same time. Given that claymores live a relatively long (but undisclosed) time as claymores, and presumably that the male awakened being in the Slashers arc was, in fact, essentially a half-awakened dump who had apparently disposed of many such claymores throughout the years, it's probably better than 10% of them that end up that way. It might be fair to guess as many as 1 in 6 to 1 in 8 of them have half-awakened to be eaten by that guy.
If the half-awakening is that common, is it inconcievable for a male to reach that point, given that he's got the proper motivation and mindset? If anyone's got a suitably present mind and high degree of self-mastery, it's Raki, as underscored by his silence during the fight with Ophelia.
However, I think it's important that Raki stays human. If he's not fully human, then we can no longer identify with any character in the story, and the series degenerates to a fairly hard-to-feel "monster versus monster" scenario.
Further, Clare's specialty is specifically attuned to fighting against high-end enemies -- awakened beings, high-powered yoma, partially-released claymores. Having a fully-human Raki capable of covering the low-end (say ... humans, very weak yoma, unreleased claymores) would make them very much a complementary pair, covering each other's weaknesses and basically completing each other on the battlefield.
This, in my opinion, would be an ideal scenario both from a combat perspective and a storytelling perspective.
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