Naruto 346

[Munsu]

Again, you're taking what I'm saying out of context. You're focusing on my choice of words for "should" instead of "must", I didn't give you a well thoughtout definition, just a quickie to get my points across, consider the context of what I'm saying.

You never flat out disagree with my argument, but you don't seem to aknowledge any of the evidence presented that suggests that Sasuke is capable and could've killed Orochimaru, or at the very least strongly suggest that the premise "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" is false .

So, in my opinion and apparently also of others, I've given stong evidence on why Sasuke is capable of killing Orochimaru. I've also given evidence on why Orochimaru as a common factor is flawed to make a comparison between Sasuke and Naruto, but let's ignore that opinion for now, it was just some added factors to support my points.

There's nothing wrong with my premesis. They are what they are. They are what I picked for my arguement. The conclusion naturally comes from the premesis I've chosen.

A premise of one argument is the conclusion of another. Your reasoning to make Sasuke the underdog is correct. But, you have not provided any evidence/reasoning/premises that would make your premise/conclusion of "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" true or strongly suggesting it is so. So if you would at least give me something that strongly suggests that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" then I would at least aknowledge that there's a very strong possiblity that he's the underdog. So, to me, your premise of "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" is false because you haven't provided anything that would lead me to believe it, as at the moment me and most others believe that Sasuke could've killed him and can. I don't need prove, I just need strong evidence that suggest that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru". Don't waste time arguing how you're reasoning is inductive and what not. Provide me with an argument, a convincing one, with why you think "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru". If you can't provide us with that, then we're just forced to believe that your premise is wrong/inaccurate and your conclusion is inaccurate based on the premises used.

In fact I really don't care about your conclusion of Sasuke being an underdog. I'm more interested on what leads you to believe that Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru.

My reasoning based on my premesis is perfectly fine.

Yep, the reasoning based on your premises is perfectly fine. I'm just waiting for your reasoning that makes you believe that the premises themselves are accurate or at least strongly suggest they are true.

Relevant to your argument, not mine. So again, irrelevant.

I think we are having a misunderstading what we mean by argument. At this particular time when I'm using argument I'm meaning the discussion and disagreement we are having, while you seem to mean that your argument is the set of premises that led to your conclusion.

You've stated multiple times that I'm wrong and my reasoning is poor.

Forget I said your reasoning is poor. Let me give you that one. Now dedicate all your energy to give me strong evidence that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" and let's focus our argument on that.

If in your next post you don't focus on explaining the accuracy of your premises, I'll delete it and consider it a spam off-topic post. Tired of going around in circles about things we can't agree because I'm talking about one thing and you're talking about another and we're taking things out of context.

[JaySee]

Again, you're taking what I'm saying out of context. You're focusing on my choice of words for "should" instead of "must", I didn't give you a well thoughtout definition, just a quickie to get my points across, consider the context of what I'm saying.

Do you know what out of context means? Just admit you're mistaken... jeez. I don't know what circumstances could lead you to use SHOULD in place of MUST or in what circumstance that would be acceptable.

You never flat out disagree with my argument, but you don't seem to aknowledge any of the evidence presented that suggests that Sasuke is capable and could've killed Orochimaru, or at the very least strongly suggest that the premise "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" is false.

That's because I've been too busy trying to correct you from your deductive arguing. Even still, I've been saying that "I'm not right" and that "There is no right or wrong." Not in those words, but a cool-headed rational person could read that in what I've been saying. So since you so desperately need my acknowledgement, (Why the hell you care what I think about you is beyond me...) It is possible that Sasuke can kill Orochimaru. I never said it was false or meant to suggest that it could be. In fact it can't be false unless the author says so.

Your reasoning to make Sasuke the underdog is correct. But, you have not provided any evidence/reasoning/premises that would make your premise/conclusion of "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" true or strongly suggesting it is so. So if you would at least give me something that strongly suggests that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" then I would at least aknowledge that there's a very strong possiblity that he's the underdog. So, to me, your premise of "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" is false because you haven't provided anything that would lead me to believe it, as at the moment me and most others believe that Sasuke could've killed him and can. I don't need prove, I just need strong evidence that suggest that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru". Don't waste time arguing how you're reasoning is inductive and what not. Provide me with an argument, a convincing one, with why you think "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru". If you can't provide us with that, then we're just forced to belive that your premise is wrong and your conclusion is inaccurate based on the premises used.

My argument's conclusion has nothing to do with Sasuke being able or unable to kill Orochimaru. The conclusion is that Sasuke can be the underdog. Again you're substituting things that don't belong like your mistaken use of words. Be clear. Stop with this "it's this or this" crap. PICK ONE! If one doesn't apply, don't put it! Me concluding Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru doesn't apply, so don't put it. That's a cheap straw man tactic.

Now, I did say Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru and you pointed that out as a flawed reasoning to which I conceded. I then corrected myself and changed the statement to: Sasuke didn't and seemingly couldn't kill Orochimaru. I'd like to point out that you didn't point out the error in the reasoning. You simply stated it's WRONG because of (insert deductive reasoning here). I'm not sure you even understand why that statement is "wrong." It's "wrong" because it's a deductive statement that is unproveable.

I've already given the evidence pointing towards Sasuke seemingly being unable to kill Oro, but I guess I have to list them again or you'll delete this post so you can have your last word. You'll probably have the last word anyway.

Oro said he can't.
Kabuto said he can't and was shocked at the possibility.
He didn't.
He fell into Oro's Genjutsu (even though he said none of Oro's jutsus work on him AFTER he had already fallen into it for all you deductive arguers)
I'll add, it's obvious he wanted to kill Oro. I think he actually says it, but I don't want to look it up. He does say he doesn't need Oro. That points to him not needing any type of benefit he might get from absorbing him. So it's doubtful to me he wanted to absorb and not actually physically kill him. You can argue that he's just a sadistic mofo. (For all you deductive whiners out there.) However being sadistic hasn't really been shown as part of his character.

I think we are having a misunderstading what we mean by argument. At this particular time when I'm using argument I'm meaning the discussion and disagreement we are having, while you seem to mean that your argument is the set of premises that led to your conclusion.

Yes. That's why I continually said "my argument."

Forget I said your reasoning is poor. Let me give you that one. Now dedicate all your energy to give me strong evidence that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" and let's focus our argument on that.

This would've made it a nice and civil discussion, but then you had to add this.

If in your next post you don't focus on explaining the accuracy of your premises, I'll delete it and consider it a spam off-topic post. Tired of going around in circles about things we can't agree because I'm talking about one thing and you're talking about another and we're taking things out of context.

Ask a clear question, I'll give a clear answer. You've just been bouncing everywhere. Don't blame me for the circles.

[Munsu]

Do you know what out of context means? Just admit you're mistaken... jeez. I don't know what circumstances could lead you to use SHOULD in place of MUST or in what circumstance that would be acceptable.

Because English is not my first language and I don't want to waste my time to pick each and every word carefully. Take the general idea, hence why I suggest you take some listening for understanding classes. At the time I thought "should" was the better word to use as I was thinking of the possiblities of counter arguments that could potentially prove a conclusion wrong.

It is possible that Sasuke can kill Orochimaru. I never said it was false or meant to suggest that it could be. In fact it can't be false unless the author says so.

You seem to suggest that you think he can't kill him since you used that as your premise of your conclusion, but you seem to have revised your premise so lets forget about this statement in particular then.

My argument's conclusion has nothing to do with Sasuke being able or unable to kill Orochimaru.

Now you're simply being stubborn. You gave two premises to conclude that he's the underdog. You said that Naruto could kill Orochimaru and that Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru. How can you possibly say that it has nothing to do with your conclusion? Even with the revised premise, the conclusion is still contingent on Sasuke's ability to kill Orochimaru.

If you conclude that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" with a faulty reasoning (we haven't seen your reasoning for this premise/conclusion) then your whole conclusion is inaccurate, based on the premises used. You expect us to believe your conclusion with premises you apparently pulled out of your ass.
But yeah, you have a revised premise that is explained in detail below, now it's up to me to see if I can discredit it in any way.

Now, I did say Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru and you pointed that out as a flawed reasoning to which I conceded. I then corrected myself and changed the statement to: Sasuke didn't and seemingly couldn't kill Orochimaru. I'd like to point out that you didn't point out the error in the reasoning. You simply stated it's WRONG because of (insert deductive reasoning here). I'm not sure you even understand why that statement is "wrong." It's "wrong" because it's a deductive statement that is unproveable.

I've already given the evidence pointing towards Sasuke seemingly being unable to kill Oro, but I guess I have to list them again or you'll delete this post so you can have your last word. You'll probably have the last word anyway.

Oro said he can't.
Kabuto said he can't and was shocked at the possibility.
He didn't.
He fell into Oro's Genjutsu (even though he said none of Oro's jutsus work on him AFTER he had already fallen into it for all you deductive arguers)
I'll add, it's obvious he wanted to kill Oro. I think he actually says it, but I don't want to look it up. He does say he doesn't need Oro. That points to him not needing any type of benefit he might get from absorbing him. So it's doubtful to me he wanted to absorb and not actually physically kill him. You can argue that he's just a sadistic mofo. (For all you deductive whiners out there.) However being sadistic hasn't really been shown as part of his character.

Finally, something with substance. Would try to counter it later, don't have the energy. I at first didn't want to aknowledge your change of premises, mainly because it looked like a copout to me.

This would've made it a nice and civil discussion, but then you had to add this.

Seemed to me that you threw out any civil discussion we may have with the constant uses of uppercase and with all your look this shit up refferences, when most of the time it was a misunderstanding by both of us in their respective cases.

Ask a clear question, I'll give a clear answer. You've just been bouncing everywhere. Don't blame me for the circles.

Of course I'm going to be bouncing everywhere, with you focusing the discussion on things that I'm not particularly interested in, yet doing it in such a condescending manner that a reply was imminent losing my intended purpose of discussion in the process and you missing out on it.

[JaySee]

Because English is not my first language and I don't want to waste my time to pick each and every word carefully. Take the general idea, hence why I suggest you take some listening for understanding classes. At the time I thought "should" was the better word to use as I was thinking of the possiblities of counter arguments that could potentially prove my conclusion wrong.

You never explained the context that English is not your first language and just kept saying I was taking things out of context. However you are just pointing out the fact that you were unsure of the definition, not that it was a mistake due to ignorance of of what should and must mean. You knew what should and must mean.

You seem to suggest that you think he can't kill him since you used that as your premise of your conclusion, but you seem to have revised your premise so lets forget about this statement in particular then.

Yes, that's what I think. Yes, that is a premise. I don't, however, deny that it is a possibility. That's deductive.

Now you're simply being stubborn. You gave two premises to conclude that he's the underdog. You said that Naruto could kill Orochimaru and that Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru. How can you possibly say that it has nothing to do with your conclusion? Even with the revised premise, the conclusion is still contingent on Sasuke's ability to kill Orochimaru.

If you conclude that "Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru" with a faulty reasoning (we haven't seen your reasoning for this premise/conclusion) then your whole conclusion is inaccurate, based on the premises used. You expect us to believe your conclusion with premises you apparently pulled out of your ass.

Poor wording on my part. I remember writing that line and deleting it, but I guess I didn't. I thought I rewrote it to say it's not part of my conclusion. I do however go on to say it is a premise. Which means that it indeed has to do with my conclusion.

Finally, something with substance. Would try to counter it later, don't have the energy.

Umm... I already said all that with exception to my addition at the end. I was just repeating myself.

Seemed to me that you threw out any civil discussion we may have with the constant uses of uppercase and with all your look this shit up refferences, when most of the time it was a misunderstanding by both of us in their respective cases.

When I tell people to look up stuff, it's not an insult. I've been a teacher throughout my life in one way or another and I've learned it's better for people to find and figure out answers on their own than me just laying it in front of them. The process and finding and figuring stuff out on your own helps you retain it in memory.

The uppercase is not always used as shouting. I'm not sure how the netiquette on this got corrupted, but I've been using the internet for bulletin boards and chat since before tagging was added. Back then (God I sound old...) we used uppercase for shouting as well as EMPHASIS. I'm emphasising emphasis, not shouting it there. The general rule was if the entire sentence isn't caps, it's not shouting, it's emphasis. I guess I should get in the habit of using bold... I've been criticized for this @ work by n00bs.

[Munsu]

I think I'm going to split the thread with our discussion, as to many of it seems off-topic to the chapter.

You never explained the context that English is not your first language and just kept saying I was taking things out of context. However you are just pointing out the fact that you were unsure of the definition, not that it was a mistake due to ignorance of of what should and must mean. You knew what should and must mean.

Yeah, "should" was a poor word in retospect since I'm defining the term when it really wasn't my whole intention, I got concerned with the possiblity of a counterargument proving a conclusion of deductive reasoning inaccurate so I said "should". So if I were to define deductive reasoning I would surely not use "should", but when I incorporate the possiblity of a conclusion being wrong, "must" seemed too strong. So the context was that I wasn't only trying to define the term, I was also applying possibilites, that do exist, of that conclusion being wrong even when deductively concluded. One has to be open to the possibility that new factors and premises may arise that will make your previous conclusion inaccurate, hence why theories are often disproven and are very hard to turn in to Law.
The other part of what I mean by context, was that I was merely trying to point out that no matter the type of reasoning used, the conclusion is contingent on the accuracy of it's premises (so the accuracy of my definition wasn't as important as aknowleding that both types of reasoning need truthful premises). That even if the premises, in an inductive reasoning, can't prove for certain the conclusion, the premises (by themselves) should be accurate hence why I think that no matter what type of reasoning is used, there's no excuse for having a faulty premise in the argument. So in all, even if the conclusion is uncertain the premises used should be truthful in order to be used in that argument.

About English not being my first language is not an excuse for using a word wrongfully, it was an excuse as to why I didn't use a better word instead. But I think if you consider my intention explained above, I think you may agree that "should" wasn't that bad of a choice.

Umm... I already said all that with exception to my addition at the end. I was just repeating myself.

Yeah, but not in a real organized manner that I could get my grasp on. I still think those premises alone won't convince me of your conclusion, but I'll argue about it later.

When I tell people to look up stuff, it's not an insult. I've been a teacher throughout my life in one way or another and I've learned it's better for people to find and figure out answers on their own than me just laying it in front of them. The process and finding and figuring stuff out on your own helps you retain it in memory.

That's fine. Just keep in mind that I don't like to post about things I don't know about. If I post my opinion or something I either know what it is or have done my research, so when you tell me to look things up it really bothers me because it means that I have to repeat once again what I said, and explain myself once again unncessesarily so it irritates me; plus it's condenscending, if you think I used something wrongfully say you don't understand what I mean, because more often than not it is a misunderstanding and that's usually true with everyone. Believe me when I say that I've been trying alot not to curse or insult, that's how much I wanted an actual discussion, I'll consider my irritation due to a misunderstanding of your intentions.

Anyways the reason I "gave you that one" was because we can't continue that same dicussion that was going in circles here, it was simply off-topic, this wasn't the place to keep discussing it so there was a need to get beyond that argument and focus on something that has to do with the content of Naruto and chapter 346.

Oro said he can't.

Oro also said it was impossible that Sasuke was doing all that in the dimension he created, yet Sasuke was willfully doing as he pleased in there pretty much. Or as you say, you can just say that Oro was simply being arrogant. In fact, Oro himself is astonished on how strong Sasuke has become... Oro even says that him being called genius is pitiful infront of the current Sasuke.

Kabuto said he can't and was shocked at the possibility.

He also seemed shocked at what Sasuke did in the dimension and when he was going to say that Oro got absorbed he seemed shocked too. Him being shocked wasn't only for the possibilty of Sasuke killing him. He also said that Sasuke wouldn't be able to "whistand the ritual", yet Sasuke did so he might also be shocked for that alone.

He didn't.

Yep, I still think that he didn't for some other reason that's unknown to us at the moment. First they were in some sort of dimension that Oro created. We don't know the properties of that dimension or what rules it may have.

He fell into Oro's Genjutsu (even though he said none of Oro's jutsus work on him AFTER he had already fallen into it for all you deductive arguers)

Which Genjutsu are you reffering to? I don't think that the creation of another dimension is genjutsu and if those other attacks occuring on the dimension are Genjutsu I thought that Sasuke took care of them without problem. I don't see how this supports your premise though even if it were true.

Oro apparently created an actual dimension inside of him, genjutsu is only an illusionary technique if I recall correctly.

I'll add, it's obvious he wanted to kill Oro. I think he actually says it, but I don't want to look it up. He does say he doesn't need Oro. That points to him not needing any type of benefit he might get from absorbing him. So it's doubtful to me he wanted to absorb and not actually physically kill him. You can argue that he's just a sadistic mofo. (For all you deductive whiners out there.) However being sadistic hasn't really been shown as part of his character.

Sasuke didn't seem to have knowledge of how the ritual occurred nor of what the seal actually did to him, so when he wanted to kill Oro he wasn't taking into acount what the seal did to him nor having to fight in another dimension. So, in this new dimension for all we know Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru, we don't know what effects the new dimension may have on Sasuke's body if Orochimaru were to die. When he said he didn't need Oro it was meant as he didn't need his teaching anymore, he never made such a statement after Oro started the ritual.

I'll merge my posts later, and JaySee please focus on this post instead of the one above, don't want to go off-topic once again. We can talk about types of reasonings, semantics, etc. some other time.

[JaySee]

Which Genjutsu are you reffering to? I don't think that the creation of another dimension is genjutsu and if those other attacks occuring on the dimension are Genjutsu I thought that Sasuke took care of them without problem. I don't see how this supports your premise though even if it were true.

Oro apparently created an actual dimension inside of him, genjutsu is only an illusionary technique if I recall correctly.

I'm not sure if it would be called a ninjutsu instead. They weren't actually physically moved. I took it as them being in within Oro's mind. Similar to Sasuke going inside Naruto and seeing Kyuubi. It supports my premise because it shows Oro did successfully execute a jutsu on him. Sasuke was also poisoned by Oro.

Sasuke didn't seem to have knowledge of how the ritual occurred nor of what the seal actually did to him, so when he wanted to kill Oro he wasn't taking into acount what the seal did to him nor having to fight in another dimension. So, in this new dimension for all we know Sasuke can't kill Orochimaru, we don't know what effects the new dimension may have on Sasuke's body if Orochimaru were to die. When he said he didn't need Oro it was meant as he didn't need his teaching anymore, he never made such a statement after Oro started the ritual.

Not having knowledge of the ritual to me points that he should not allow the ritual to willfully happen. You don't go into a fight not knowing something like that. Unless you're a totally arrogant bastard, which is a possibility, but Sasuke can't be THAT dumb IMO. It's arguable if Sasuke did or didn't know that the seal would hinder him against Oro. I think Kakashi would know from that female ex-disciple (Still can't recall her name) and would tell Sasuke. If not, he would have some clue of it as it knocked him out when he got it. You can't judge what he meant by not needing Oro. You can have your theory though.

[fahoumh]

My mistake. But the argument still stands.

Oh, I had no intention of dissembling your argument, it was just a minor detail that I wasn't sure about....sorry, I'm a little weird like that.