I disagree. In my opinion, Jiraiya could take out Itachi. Why do you think Itachi and Kisame ran away when they had a 2 on 1 advantage? Jiraiya may be stronger than even Orochimaru - though this is obviously speculation.Originally Posted by DayoftheDante
Well, I still don't believe they have a leader in the sense he would actually have any power (ability to command the others), but if their objective is anything beyond just gathering the demons (maybe they want to found a zoo if it's not), then there should be one person who had the original idea for whatever they are ultimately planning. That person could have contacted another rogue and got him interested. And then they would have got more people to join, obviously having something in the plan that would benefit them all.
Or maybe they all just happened to meet in a bar, and got this brilliant idea after a few glasses...
Not saying that your wrong, but the logic you used for your conclusions are worthless. You're saying that Jiraiya MAY be stronger than Orochimaru, but that he could take out Itachi, when it has been stated that Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru.
Itachi and Kisame weren't planning to fight against Jiraiya. They had the diversion for that purpose. It's likely Itachi (and Kisame even less) doesn't know that much about Jiraiya's actual battle capabilities. They may just know the rumours. Their objective wasn't to fight against one of the legendary sannin, but just get Naruto. And as we learned, they were in absolutely no hurry to get Naruto back then. So, from a tactical point of view, it would have been pure and simple foolishness to fight against Jiraiya. Perhaps they could have won, but the cost could have been high indeed. And to be honest, Naruto now a few years later still wouldn't pose a problem for Itachi, so in that sense I don't think so much changed. They can act when Jiraiya or anyone else bothersome isn't nearby and the time is ripe.
I'm guessing this is probably what happened, though it doesn't necessarily have to be one guy. Perhaps a couple of members (including Orochimaru maybe?) decided that they were fed up with their village and decided to start looking for the tailed demons. From then on out it was just an accretion process, adding all capable ninja to the newly formed organization as they came along. They probably paired themselves up in teams of two early on until Oro left, leaving 1 odd man out.
This is also a hilarious possibility!Or maybe they all just happened to meet in a bar, and got this brilliant idea after a few glasses...
<@Terra> he told me this, "man actually meeting terra is so fucking big", and he started crying. Then he bought me hot dogs
Its not that Jiraiya could take out Itachi, and again.. Itachi and Kisame ran away from the fight since they would melt under the frog belly that Jiraiya summoned if they dont escape. and besides... looking at it.. Itachi pulled of his chakra to use and summon the mysterious black fire. not to mention he used mangekyou sharingan for that purpose and just as he said.. he used a lot of his chakra for that for purpose. so it would be very clear that itachi will loose to Jiraiya at that time... and Itachi is a wise ninja... he dont intend to kill himself just to have the jinchuuriki.. and that is my opinion.
with regards to Orochimaru, he might not be the weakest akatsuki afterall.. though he admitted that Itachi is stronger than he is... but that couldnt take out the fact that Orochimaru killed the third hokage himself. Itachi might kill the third also but remember that Orochimaru even summoned the 1st and the 2nd Hokage.. if not for Sarutobi's sealing jutsu he would have lost to Orochimaru easily.. so i guess Orochimaru is not the weakest...
Lost to oro easily? he only did the sealing cause it was the only way to take out the 2 kage's, if they didn't regenerate their lost limbs, Sandaime would've layed the smackdown on Oro, i don't think you noticed how Sandaime had to worry about 3 kage level opponents.
Look at strength as a relative, not an absolute term. Yes Itachi is strong, but after using Mangekou Sharingan his energy was drained. Not exactly the best condition to fight Jiraya.
So even if Orochimaru says that Itachi is even stronger than him, he's describing a 1 on 1 peak condition fight.
Itachi and Kisame didn't run from Jiraiya because they feared his strength or something, it's because Itachi had already done Mangekyou AND Amaterasu. Kisame even mentions something along the lines of "Why are we running?" and Itachi says he needs to rest. Everyone should already know this as it was discussed ad nauseum in the past.
Once again, anything based on manga events yet to be covered in the actual series itself is spoiling. Discussion in the anime only forum is naturally limited by not knowing about the manga, but that's exactly why we have the Open Discussion area. If someone really wants to know info like this, they'll check there. If they just want to spitball speculate about it, they'll do it here.
Spoiler removed.
Consider this a verbal warning Genma. I know you meant well enough, but you've got to let people work within the system, even if it's frustrating for manga readers.
-masa
DAMN, THIS IS ABOUT THE TENTH TIME (literally) THAT THE TOPIC OF KISAME AND ITACHI RUNNING FROM ERO-SENNIN HAS BEEN BROUGHT UP. THERE IS NO DEFINITE ANSWER TO THIS!
Caps lock aside, I'm pretty sure there's a leader of Akatsuki. It's almost defienately not Deidara, first off, because why would the leader go out and do the dirty work when he could have others do it for him/her? Exactly.
Rather than run around in circles and argue it, though, just pick up the manga and read rather than watch this so-far-shitty anime adaptation.
Last edited by masamuneehs; Mon, 02-26-2007 at 01:22 PM.
I still don't like the person x > person y, so person z > person x because person z > person y argument. In other words, Jiraiya could beat Oro because Oro is afraid of Itachi and Itachi didn't want to fight Jiraiya. Such arguments are flawed on their face, because each individual fight would proceed much differently than the others. The situations are different, you can't say Oro without any preparation could beat the Third every time anymore than you can say Jiraiya could beat Itachi if Itachi was prepared to take him on.
Really, guys, I'm getting tired of these arguments. Also, Itachi is NOT INVINCIBLE. Even 1 on 1, he can not take out any random ninja in Konoha. Gai revealed the method to beat his magenkyou sharingan way back when they first came to Konoha: just don't look at his eyes, then he can't use his ultimate technique on you. Itachi is fast, but so are Gai and Kakashi, and probably other ninja that haven't even been introduced. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that "this person is stronger than that person" argument should be referenced to a certain situation or certain techniques in order to make the discussion worthwhile.
Chidori vs. Rasengan vs. Sakura: I still think these techniques are each unique, and not just the same thing. First off, they are quite different in basic terms of execution. Chidori is a jutsu, it requires hand seals and probably some skill at doing lightning jutsu. Naruto (and probably Sakura) could not do this jutsu, plain and simple. Speed helps its success, but isn't necessary. It also seems to require a lot of chakra, because it's not really concentrated - it turns your hand into a lightning scalpel.
Now look at Rasengan. It's not a jutsu, so it can be performed by anyone who can learn fine chakra control (Sakura could probably learn this technique if someone taught her). It's unknown how much chakra this takes, it could be as much or more than Chidori, but the effects are much more devastating. Witness the comparison in destruction achieved after the rooftop battle; Sasuke was pissed because he realized his technique was inferior. Rasengan might also have other uses besides killing, while chidori is basically an assassination jutsu.
And finally examine Sakura's technique. There is no visible chakra involved, so it seems to require less chakra than both Chidori and Rasengan. However, the destruction wrought was substantial. This technique might be less effective at penetrating defense and causing damage to people, but for tearing up the ground or punching through trees/walls it seems to be ideal (Tsunade heavily used it for this purpose during her fight with Kabuto). Sakura could probably use her punch many times while chidori and rasengan would drain your chakra very quickly. And anyone thoeretically could learn Tsunade's strength with enough training and discipline - mostly it requires chakra control, which any basic ninja has a foundation in.
The point I'm trying to make is that each technique has its own challenges for use, purposes for use, and not everyone can learn every technique. Chidori is probably the most specialized, with Rasengan next, and Sakura's punch the least specialized. So they are different techniques and not just the same thing over and over IMO.
I don't know why everyone's complaining about this episode. I thought it was good. A little slow, but what do you expect after 2+ years of filler? I'm glad that they're trying to draw it out a little more to avoid fillers in the near future. And Deidara is just cool; the music they use when showing the 2 akatsuki is awesome. I don't know why some people are referring to it as "Star Wars" music, they have nothing in common except they're both using a vocal chorus.
I guess you missed the part where Naruto made probably dozens of rasengans per day during his training. And those unperfected things likely ate far more chakra than the real thing. Naruto might have a good chakra pool, but it's only infinite when he's tapping to the fox demon's red chakra, and normally he's not doing it, and he runs out of chakra just like anybody else.
I'm so glad Naruto is finally back to normal. I haven't watched anime in over a year.
That's a good point. What I was merely doing was speculating that while Itachi is powerful, (possibly one of the most powerful members of Akatsuki) I believe there have been people introduced thus far (in the anime, I don't read the manga) who are more powerful than him. The only reason I brought this up was someone earlier in the thread said that they thought no one introduced thus far is as powerful as Itachi. I am in disagreement with this. Of course, we have seen so little of Itachi's and Jiraiya's abilities that my point was moot.
I too liked this episode. As I said before, I don't mind flashbacks, and I even enjoy them, as long as it's not a flashback to a filler or something that happened fairly recently.
The fight between Kakashi and Naruto/Sakura thus far was nothing special, but then again the original battle for the bells wasn't all that great either. I'm just glad Naruto has started up again, and the animation is at least decent. (though a few notches down from the previous week - the first episode of Naruto Shippuden had the best animation of any Naruto episode in my opinion.)
I should mention that before I had the episode downloaded I came here to look at the responses and I saw quite a few people saying it was boring and a stupid episode, which made me really disappointed, so when I watched the episode 10-15 minutes later, my expectations were very low. That may have been part of the reason why I liked the episode.
I'm not sure what you mean by "most specialized", but when Jiraiya decided to teach Naruto the Rasengan he said it was a technique 2nd level from the top, which I assumed to mean it was a very high level technique. The fourth himself developed it, so it must be among the strongest techniques shown so far. I'm not sure if power of technique has anything whatsoever to do with your most specialized comment, and I may be way off in my interpretation of that. So please clarify.
By "specialized", all I mean is that there are restrictions on who can use it. Chidori is a jutsu that requires a knowledge of lightning techniques, an "affinity", if you will. Rasengan isn't elemental based, so any character could learn it with the right amount of study and the right teacher. Sakura's strength probably requires even less training, since the execution of it doesn't involve swirling chakra, only gathering it in her fist.
So what I meant to say was the ability to learn it, plus the training involved, relates to how "specialized" it is. I only said that Chidori was more specialized than Rasengan because not everyone can learn it no matter how good they are at training and chakra control.
The point I tried to make in the beginning was that Chidori, Rasengan, and Sakura's punch are not just the same thing with different names. And my comments weren't particularly directed at you, I happen to agree with you about Itachi in particular.
the chidori is developed by Kakashi also... and Kakashi is the student of the 4th... so it means.. chidori and rasengan has the same quality in terms of power... but maybe different in terms of chakra...I'm not sure what you mean by "most specialized", but when Jiraiya decided to teach Naruto the Rasengan he said it was a technique 2nd level from the top, which I assumed to mean it was a very high level technique. The fourth himself developed it, so it must be among the strongest techniques shown so far. I'm not sure if power of technique has anything whatsoever to do with your most specialized comment, and I may be way off in my interpretation of that. So please clarify.
Uhh... WHAT? How does Kakashi being Yondaime's student equal Chidori and Rasengan being the same power? dO_ob
Yeah really. In fact, if anything it suggests that it's actually weaker. Since Jiraya said that Sharingan can't copy Rasengan, it almost makes it seem like Kakashi tried to recreate his Master's technique, failed, and ended up with something similar, but much less chakra-efficient.
well basically its like this.. when somebody taught you how to paint. you would actually learn how to paint to the extent of getting the qualities even that of your teacher and sometimes even surpasses them.. so in this case... we all know that kakashi is taught by the 4th right.. so basically.. we can say that he has acquired the skills of the 4th... though not in general. and besides... aside from chidori using lightning the concepts of both rasengan and chidori are just equal... we just dont know which needs more chakra.. either the chidori or rasengan.. and for the damage.. well this is just my opinion... the rasengan has internal damage.. rather than an assasination ability with which the chidori has...
On the whole Chidori/Rasengan/Sakura Fist.
I always thought of it like this
Chidori - Concentrates raw chakra into users arm and "ignites" it, This basically consumes chakra because it is lost when the user explodes the chakra. Thus this skill requires the user to be able to have moderate Chakra control and be able to utilize a fair bit of chakra.
Rasengan - Concentrates chakra into the users palm. This technique utilizes the users ability to create rotational movement of chakra in the hand. I don't think this skill actually CONSUMES chakra until it hits something and the force is dissipated. However this skill requires an enormous chakra "pool" to maintain and an overall high level of chakra control(I assume Naruto compensates with this by creating a clone).
Sakura Fist - The user must concentrate chakra into the fist. Upon contact with a surface the user needs to release all the chakra at once to create an enormous force. This requires an extremely high amount of chakra control as it stores up chakra in the arm and the user must be able to have enough control to time chakra release with impact.
This is just how I see it and I'm sure many of you will disagree with at least some of my thoughts. Also sorry in advance if some parts of my post are confusing/have poor sentence structure. Language Arts is not my forte.
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