Gays, population growth, the environment, clouds!

[DB_Hunter]

Admin Note: This thread has been split from Terra's thread for being off-topic. If you want to talk about Terra's experience, go there. If you want to talk about the stuff this discussion wandered through, go here.
-Admin

I don't know what to be more disgusted about... your (Terra's) act or the response of the people on this forum.

Can't say I'm surprised, from the pictures you used to post you looked like you would end up doing something like this.

No wonder places like Europe are literally dying out... the fertility rate is bound to drop with people simply concerned with 'having fun' instead of worrying about the declining population levels.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not homophobic. That would suggest that I have some irrational fear/hatred of homosexuals, which I do not. Disgust would probably be the best way to describe my feeling towards such acts.

I think the idea of doing an act as long as it makes you happy is foolish to the extreme. The promotion of homosexuality is simply a step forward from the promotion of extra-marital relationships, if you believe in the idea that you should do whatever makes you happy.

In my opinion this leads to societal breakdown. This is why the populations of the vast number of Western countries are dying out... fertility rates in Europe are not even at the required levels to replace the existing population levels, let alone grow. This leads to a host of other problems, such as an ageing workforce, pension crisis' and economic decline amongst other things. But I guess this is not something one person should worry about huh?

I bet one day pedophillia will be promoted like this too... afterall, homosexuality was once considered to be 'abnormal' and illegal in Western societies about 30-40 years ago. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I think there already is a party in the Netherlands that promotes either the legalisation of child porn or pedophilla.

At this rate, it may not be you guys but maybe your kids (if you have any) that will probably be sitting with each other and saying to pedophiles that its OK to bang kids, as long as they give consent and everyone involved is having fun. Who knows, they could be the "partner's" of pedophiles themselves...

[anime050]

-02:11:37- [~YTheAlien]: that post is so horrible that if I wasn't banned already I would post such a horrific reply that I would get banned again

---

-02:12:06- [~YTheAlien]: gays are just like pedophiles
-02:12:13- [~YTheAlien]: or maybe gays ARE all pedophiles
-02:12:24- [~YTheAlien]: and gays are destroying european civilization
-02:12:44- [~YTheAlien]: despite this being pretty much the only fucking period in history where europe isn't having a fucking gigantic war that has lasted a decade
-02:12:53- [~YTheAlien]: or colonizing africa and killing a million African-Americans (Hint: This used to be a racial slur!)

---

-02:13:02- [~`a50]: oh man
-02:13:04- [~`a50]: can i post that
-02:13:08- [~`a50]: ill copy paste!
-02:13:12- [~YTheAlien]: no
-02:13:22- [~YTheAlien]: ok here

---

-02:14:04- [~YTheAlien]: the fact that he is fucking worrying about underpopulation at a time when the earth's population as a whole is increasing exponentially is a fucking joke
-02:14:28- [~YTheAlien]: and of course his absolutely awful equivalence argument between homosexuality and pedophilia
-02:14:35- [~YTheAlien]: what the fuck is his fucking problem
-02:14:49- [~YTheAlien]: sex acts between consenting adults are acceptable
-02:15:08- [~YTheAlien]: sex acts between nonconsenting parties (children cannot legally consent to sex) is not acceptable
-02:16:43- [~YTheAlien]: his argument about european birth rates is fucking facile
-02:16:48- [~YTheAlien]: first of all, the birth rate is still positive
-02:16:54- [~YTheAlien]: and always has been throughout human history
-02:17:13- [~YTheAlien]: second of all, the predictor for declining population is based on a current trend in birth rate decline holding steady
-02:17:16- [~YTheAlien]: until 2100
-02:17:25- [~YTheAlien]: yeah ok guys we're fucked
-02:17:28- [~YTheAlien]: in 100 years..........
-02:17:33- [~YTheAlien]: oh wait nothing bad will happen
-02:18:09- [~YTheAlien]: and he is also making a fucking terrible argument about extramarital relation
-02:18:23- [~YTheAlien]: it's extramarital because PEOPLE LIKE YOU BANNED GAY MARRIAGE YOU FUCKING DICKHEAD
-02:19:00- [~YTheAlien]: he blames gays fucking for everything including his fucking pension problems
-02:19:30- [~YTheAlien]: gay people represent ~7-10% of the population and ALWAYS HAVE
-02:19:47- [~YTheAlien]: gay people have never reproduced, what the fuck do their reproductive rates have to do with current trends in population
-02:21:02- [~YTheAlien]: and as a reminder, the biggest and only credible threat to western civilization are backwards barbarians who want to destroy the foundations of modernity - and, surprise, they hate gay people.
-02:21:18- [~YTheAlien]: maybe he should go join up with the muslims, I hear they are very civilized and hate gays

---

-02:21:08- [~Schism]: Gay people did in ye ol' days
-02:21:13- [~Schism]: When if you were gay
-02:21:47- [~YTheAlien]: Schism the amount of gay people who lead married lives is, at best, about 40% of the gay population which is itself about 7% of the population
-02:21:58- [~YTheAlien]: and this is true even in modernity
-02:22:10- [~YTheAlien]: the reproductive shift has nothing to do with gay people

---

-02:22:30- [~Schism]: Yeah
-02:22:31- [~Schism]: I agree
-02:22:37- [~Schism]: The population loss is minimal
-02:22:44- [~Schism]: I'm just saying they do reproduce
-02:22:50- [~YTheAlien]: fucking shitty godawful ignorant ass-backwards fundamentalist shitbags like db_hunter are the reason I can never post on that board

-02:23:01- [~YTheAlien]: ahhhhhhhh
-02:23:08- • ~YTheAlien explodes in a fireball of gayness

[PSJ]

Do you honestly believe the population of Europe is decreasing because of people having fun or because people are homosexuals? You're saying that people should all breed like rabbits in order for the country to survive? Is that what people in your country do?

You do know that homosexuality is a very natural thing right? Homosexuality have been spotted in alot of diffrent animal societies. It's also freedom of choice, if a person is in fact attracted to the same sex it's his choice if he wants to go through with it or not. I can't believe that you compared homosexuality to pedophillia. Pedophillia takes advantage of kids who don't have knowledge about what it means and therefore can't make a judgement for themselves, while a homosexual is a grown person who is perfectly clear about what it is about. It's not the same thing.

The population of Europe is decreasing largly because women have children later in their lives and as a result of that they don't give birth to as many children as women did before. Alot of people are studying to their late 20's and even after that they may not get a secure job for a few years which makes them wait until they have a good enviroment for a child to be born into. It has nothing to do with "having fun". That is more or less a result of the long studying period alot of people go through.

The countries of Europe are working on ways to fix the problem of the decreasing population and i can tell you one thing, they aren't banning "having fun" or homosexuality. They are trying to make it more benetifial to get children and the more children you get, the more benefits you get. Immigrants is also a good way to solve the problem, for example a decreasing work force. Sweden did this in the 60's and it worked out fine.

[Assertn]

This is why the populations of the vast number of Western countries are dying out... fertility rates in Europe are not even at the required levels to replace the existing population levels, let alone grow.

You're an idiot. If there were a billion less people in the world, we would all stand to benefit from it. Unfortunately, the reality is that the world population will always increase until its no longer able to sustain us.

We need more gay people.

[anime050]

You're an idiot. If there were a billion less people in the world, we would all stand to benefit from it. Unfortunately, the reality is that the world population will always increase until its no longer able to sustain us.

We need more gay people.

Also more AIDS, desu wa.

Or at least a new disease/plague.

[bagandscalpel]

I like where this is going~

Starting from an "innocently" inane topic about two guys making happy, it has now entered the realm of implications about indirect death and destruction ~desu.

[PSJ]

I love how your comment fits with your avatar. That's just priceless.

[DB_Hunter]

AssertnFailure:

Either you are being satirical, or you have serious issues with your preception of the world. Less people in the world would be better? Are you thinking in simple terms as "less people = less food (etc) needed for humanity"? The reasons for world poverty lie in politics and the kind of economic systems that are implemented in world today, not because the Earth can't provide enough resources.

Zimbabwe for example was known as the breadbasket for Africa, yet its own people are starting to live in hunger now (apparantly) because of the policies of its government. It could feed all of Africa if managed properly. Similar stories with Bangladesh, Pakistan and Argentina. The list could go on, but the point is to solve the resource crisis we need political solutions. The problems would still exist even if there were less people but the mentality was the same.

PSJ:

Do you honestly believe the population of Europe is decreasing because of people having fun or because people are homosexuals? You're saying that people should all breed like rabbits in order for the country to survive? Is that what people in your country do?

That's too simplistic an understanding of what I am saying. And I live in the UK, where we clearly do not do this.

You do know that homosexuality is a very natural thing right? Homosexuality have been spotted in alot of diffrent animal societies.

I don't believe in equating humans with animals when it comes to behaviour. Humans clearly posses an intellect to discern right and wrong, animals do not. Comparing yourself to a pengiun or a goat that is homosexual (and I don't even know the authenticity of these claims) is plain silly. Not even worth discussing.

It's also freedom of choice, if a person is in fact attracted to the same sex it's his choice if he wants to go through with it or not. I can't believe that you compared homosexuality to pedophillia. Pedophillia takes advantage of kids who don't have knowledge about what it means and therefore can't make a judgement for themselves, while a homosexual is a grown person who is perfectly clear about what it is about. It's not the same thing.

Homosexuality was once considered a mental illness (note I don't subscribe to this view). It was evetually legalised because of your very own reasoning, due to the principle of sexual freedom. The people who were homosexual used this argument successfully to get it legalised. It didn't happen overnight, it took time. The same will happen with pedophillia, because as long as all people subscribe to this view there will always be legitimate grounds to argue this point. Fine I concede it may not go down to your 1 month old baby, but it won't be far off.

The population of Europe is decreasing largly because women have children later in their lives and as a result of that they don't give birth to as many children as women did before. Alot of people are studying to their late 20's and even after that they may not get a secure job for a few years which makes them wait until they have a good enviroment for a child to be born into. It has nothing to do with "having fun". That is more or less a result of the long studying period alot of people go through.

I agree with everything there apart from the bit in bold (kind of). What I am trying to get at is that 'having fun' is an extension of the concepts of sexual freedom, freedom of association etc. So 'having fun' is not the problem per se.

Take a step back and think why people are doing all of the above more now. For fun? How many people think its fun to work? How many people think its fun to study? Very few I guess, like the ones who are lucky enough to work or study in the field they like without having to worry about money. The societies we live in now are such people are having to "work" harder increasingly simply to maintain their lives. In a house now both partners are having to work to make ends meet comfortably.

This is a combination of essentially what are Capitalist policies and values at play. People have been indoctrinated to believe that success in life is personal gratification. So people now work harder than ever, are more liberal with their desires than every before. People have stopped thinking about the wider good about society, and now it is all me, me, me.

The countries of Europe are working on ways to fix the problem of the decreasing population and i can tell you one thing, they aren't banning "having fun" or homosexuality. They are trying to make it more benetifial to get children and the more children you get, the more benefits you get. Immigrants is also a good way to solve the problem, for example a decreasing work force. Sweden did this in the 60's and it worked out fine.

I know of what Europe is trying to do, I live in the UK. It won't work. Temporary governmental policies are no substitute for decades of mental conditioning. There is not one single country in Europe that meets the required fertility rate even to replace the current population, with many far below this rate.

Immigration won't work either. Imigrants are reluctant to give up their values, and the host nations don't like this. Europe needs immigrants to keep its economies going. However they wan't to treat immigrants like resources, not people. Europe wants to keep its cake and eat it also, which can't happen. It wants immigrants to give up their values and work or get out. Since this is not happening, I'm afraid the future isn't bright for Europe. Either immigrant values will take over in Europe, or the indigenous population will die out.

And forget about what happened in the 60's, it was a totally different era.

Edit: Just read Y's posts. Love his religious zeal in defending homosexuality. With his simple reasoning thats devoid of understanding politics or values, he would fit right in during the good old dark ages of Europe.

[bagandscalpel]

Either immigrant values will take over in Europe, or the indigenous population will die out.

And forget about what happened in the 60's, it was a totally different era.

Sorry, but I lo~ove how these two remarks work off of each other so well! Let's see, taking things solely according to this logic...

In a post-culture-apocalyptic Europe:

Person-whose-ancestors-were-immigrants A: "People back then were so craaaaazy!"

Person B: "Forget what happened in the 00's, it was a totally different era."

But hey, I feel your pain, natural selection, no?

[Honoko]

Just as an FYI for you guys, The Economist recently came out with an article on the declining fertility rate in Europe and what that would mean within a 5 and 10-year projection. I tried to find a link to it but unfortunately, you have to subscribe/pay in order to access it. If anyone has an account w/ this publication, could they copy and paste it here?

My point is, DB isn't exactly pulling all of this out of his ass. His arguments are based on what researchers have observed about Europe's population trends.

Also, I haven't read the article myself- just heard someone speak about it so but from what that person got out of it, the article also offered some theories on why the population is in decline, and perhaps also suggested the necessity of changing one's general outlook in life. Again, if I read the article myself, I'd go in more detail. You'll just have to take my word for it, I guess =P

[KitKat]

All issues of homosexuality aside, I don't think that a declining birth rate is either A) a sign of rampant homosexuality taking over society or B) as much of a problem as you think. Decline in birth rate correlates to an increased standard of living in the country. If your country is poor, you want to have a lot of children so that some of them will survive and take care of you in your old age. They're your retirement plan. In much of the Western world, there isn't much chance of children dying from flu or diarrhea or malaria, so people have about as many as they think they'd like to raise.

As for how much of a problem declining birth rates is, it might translate into a worrisome societal conundrum, but can only be a good thing for the earth. Our man-made societal and political systems can continually adapt. Our environment is reaching its limit of being able to adapt to our habits and lifestyles. We may be the most 'advanced' generation of humans, but we're also the most resource-hungry. The earth cannot sustain the way we're living. If the population decreases, it might just help stave off total environmental catastrophe for a bit longer.

[DB_Hunter]

Interesting article

[masamuneehs]

...this thread used to be all about laughing and having fun...
now it's all serious and about morality and science...
on the bright side, surely Gotwoot's birth rate will consequentely rise...

i don't agree with Y or DBHunter, but at least DB tried to present his argument in a decent manner. obviously this kind of opinion stuff gets mucky really fast, and i doubt you'll get everyone anywhere to ever agree on the whole gay sex/immorality/marriage/birth rate issue....

oh, and terra, still waiting on the gory details. those little sketches are funny, but i yearn for the butt-bustin truth!

[Assertn]

Are you thinking in simple terms as "less people = less food (etc) needed for humanity"? The reasons for world poverty lie in politics and the kind of economic systems that are implemented in world today, not because the Earth can't provide enough resources.

I hear statistical theories on how natural gas will be exhausted within the next 10 years...
theories on how water tables in North America will dry up within 10-20 years...
For practically every single adult in America, there's a car polluting the atmosphere. Scientists have conservatively presumed that even if every single CO2 emission was stopped right now, there would still be enough in the atmosphere to increase the temperature of the planet by 10 degrees within this century.

All this directly correlates to population.

Kitkat's right, politics and economics can change to meet our needs, but the environment cannot.

[Edort4]

Environmental science is quite in his first steps so even scientist dont know much about it (thus given completely different answers). But all of them say that earth is already overpopulated (some say that it can withstand 9 billion ppl but I found it hard to believe seeing how earth deteriorates rapidly) , and that is not good.

On the other hand the birth rate reduced to its most simplistic form means that having kids means: Less free time and less money for your hobbies (or perversions).

[Darkflare]

http://www.unesco.org/culture/worldr...g/wcrb11.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/...in546441.shtml
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/03/news/birth.php

[complich8]

This discussion is being split from Terra's thread., because it's totally off-topic.

If you want to talk about Terra's experience, go there. If you want to talk about ... whatever the hell this thread is about, go here. That is all.

Enjoy.

[complich8]

Now, to take off the admin-hat, and put on the giant-response-rant hat.

(a lot of anti-gay bile)

random arguments

On gays, pedos, and morality:

The best scientific evidence to date shows that homosexuality is neither a choice nor a learned behavior. Evidence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom is not just present, it's pervasive, and to ignore it or its implications is to shut out the realm of science entirely.

Making moral judgements about the actions of gay people is pretty fucked. It's like making moral judgements about women or black people or people with congenital defects: they don't really have any control over who they're attracted to. Forcing people into hetero relationships when they're not straight is just asking for social problems (loveless marriages, divorces, etc).

Gay people aren't pedophiles. Acceptance of homosexuality doesn't imply acceptance of pedophilia. They're independent phenomena. However, pedophilia, like homosexuality, spans all economic and social classes in a way that points towards some other factor influencing it.


On declining birth rates:

Yes, birth rates are hovering right around or slightly below the replacement rate in Europe and the US. So what's that mean for you? If you're hetero and you're concerned about the birth rate in your country, when you're married and having a family, make sure to have at least 3 kids. A lot of the low birth rates in Europe are the direct result of women's equality in the workplace but not in the home -- a direct clash of liberalization and traditional values. If it were feasible for a married couple to get by on a single income, or if fathers were more universally willing to take part in their children's upbringing, this problem would probably go away.

Further, gay couples have been known to adopt or to use artificial insemination to have children, and tend to make excellent parents. So there you go ... let gay couples marry, let married gay couples adopt, and straight unmarried/unmarried women will keep them supplied with kids ('cause you KNOW teenagers aren't going to stop having sex, and the preponderance of abstinence-only sex ed drives up teen pregnancy rates). With more stable adoptive families waiting, more people will feel better about putting their kids up for adoption and choose that over abortion. Another win-win: functional families happen, abortion declines, population grows.


On peak-everything:

Now let's talk about the world. There's a lot of theories floating around ... about how the planet, the angel, the ruby crag and Kujuta are all going to fall off of Bahamut's back and plunge all of existence into the oblivion of Adwad.

Peak-oil and its variants (peak-natural-gas, peak-food) are sexy. They scare people. They're also scientifically weak, based on models that mainstream science doesn't tend to find compelling. There's statistical and scientific models that show just about everything, but you have to question their validity. I'll leave that to climate scientists and earth scientists and whatnot though. What I _do_ know is that nuclear's still a valid solution, ITER is scheduled to come online in 2016 and hopefully demonstrate sustainable tokamak-model fusion energy (which is the holy grail of energy concerns), and if we can solve our energy concerns in clean ways we can solve most other problems that comes up using that energy.


On carrying capacity:

There is no non-coercive way to implement population controls. If you're comfortable with the ethics of coercion, then by all means, have a look at China. It's ... pretty fucked. Or, more to the point, China needs more gay men, since they're short of women by something like 115 men to 100 women. Coercive measures bring out horrible things in people and cultures, and non-coercive measures don't work. All you can really do is educate people and hope they make socially positive choices.

As for the carrying capacity of the world, that's SO wildly speculated on that it's barely worth thinking about. Science is nowhere near a consensus on that ... some people say 4 billion, some people say 50 billion. Global warming _might_ turn vast expanses of northern Asia (Russia) and North America (Canada) from non-arable tundra into arable land, which would in turn increase the food production capacity of the world. The biggest concern with more people is that more industrialization leads to more energy consumption, which leads to more CO2, more global warming, flooding of lowlands and rising sea levels, etc. And hey, flooding all of those popular coastal lowlands will probably kill a LOT of people, so there you go .


Optimism!

Anyway, I think we're just starting to be awake enough to avoid the apocalyptic terrors of peak-everything and global warming. And with a little bit more tolerance and a bit less irrational rejection of reality I think we'll be able to avoid the land mines of both population collapse and unchecked population growth. Maybe I'm just being optimistic though.

[Winged Dancer]

Also more AIDS, desu wa.

Or at least a new disease/plague.

YES.

I dunno if you were serious or joking, but whatever. I'm all for a new wave of black plague. And a new glaciation. Anything to clear the way. Seriously, the world has way too many people, I can't believe someone worries about decreasing birth-rate... so yeah, I cheer for the planet. Go, Earth, go! Some more earthquakes wouldn't be bad!

On homosexuality...

Whatever. Some gay people have a bunch of sex with whomever, some don't. It's their life, I don't care.

[Lucifus]

On the Gay Issue...
Raised in Jamaica, taught in Jamaica.....nothing more needs to be said. =S