*dreads the possible prospect of Asuma managing to defeat/kill Kakuzu or Hidan (probably Kakuzu) and then being saved from the brink of death by Sakura's medical jutsus*
*dreads the possible prospect of Asuma managing to defeat/kill Kakuzu or Hidan (probably Kakuzu) and then being saved from the brink of death by Sakura's medical jutsus*
They can't kill Hidan! He's too cool to die so quickly! No, really, killing either Kakuzu or Hidan would be so, so sucky right now. Especialy if Sakura is involved at any degree. Mabe things will go like Kakashi vs.Deidara... nobody dies but they do inflict some serious injuries on each other.
That would be better than Asuma somehow taking out an Akatsuki member and then being revived.
Man, i hate it. Kakashi was established as a prodigy and THE genius technician of Konoha long ago. The 4th was his teacher. For him to know Rasengan is not surprising at all. We also know that what limits him is his little amount of chakra. So why should he use sth like Rasengan, which takes quite some chakra, if his own fully powered chidori does more damage? Also the chidori is like his fingerprint jutsu for which he is widely known - he doesn't reveal anything by using it. The 4th taught his teacher (Jiraiya) rasengan, why shouldn't he have taught it his student? Esp if he wasn't able to complete it - the student surpasses the teacher, it is only natural to teach Kakashi what he was able to achieve, hoping he will extend it. Additionally, knowing sth and using it because it fits your battlestyle are two entirely different things.
The affinity thing. Again. For christ's sake, it's an affinity, not an exclusive contract. Think of it HxH-style as the corners of a pentagram. The element you have an affinity for is the easiest to learn, the two next are somewhat harder, the last two for most people near impossible. The 3rd was known as "The professor" for knowing all of konoha's jutsus (of his time). That will obviously exclude bloodline things, but near certainly has to include jutsus of all 5 elemental types. He was even praised by ANBU during his last battle for being able to perform equally very high level jutsus from different elements.
Concluding, I'd say Kakashi is able to create all 5 basic chakra element types, but can, depending on the element, only perform only jutsus of a limited rank. (Like about every konoha ninja can perform some sort of basic katon).
Rasengan... please, read the manga. PLEASE. Naruto will not spit winds of hell from his palms. No. There won't be any tornado hoses in his palm either. Wind sharpens. That's it. Temari throws chakra scythes (simple form manipulation) and switches them to wind to have them sharper. Same thing with Asumas knuckle-knives. Right now Rasengan is the climax of form manipulation. There is no nature manipulation, yet it already has a destructive force very similar to (or even exceeding) nature jutsus. But all the damage effect comes from the amount, the speed and the spin of the blunt chakra mass. Transforming that chakra into sharpened wind chakra will simply exponentially raise the damage done by rasengan.
Naruto has a ball of fast and wild spinning stones and is about to transform it into a sphere of rotating razorblades. Figuratively speaking.
A destructive cutting-tornado is a nice mid-range wind technique in theory, but it will not develop out of rasengan. It requires a completely different chakra form as a basis.
--
"If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor?
I hope to die before I have to use Microsoft Word." (Donald E. Knuth)
1) Considering that Naruto can create rasengans all night long while Sasuke and Kakashi are reduced to only 2-6 chidoris/raikiris in a day suggests that rasengan uses substantially less chakra than chidori. The mere observation that sasuke's skin rips from the high concentration of chakra suggests to me that chidori is a move that relies on pure overwhelming power, while rasengan's all about efficiency and finese. I fail to see any real advantage chidori has over rasengan except that its easier for a sharingan/lightning-user to learn.Originally Posted by Elessar
2) Chidori deals more damage? If both jutsus are capable of completely killing a man, then where does this analysis come from? If anything, I'd say the rooftop battle between naruto and sasuke suggests OTHERWISE.
But yeah, I'd say rasengan didn't compliment neither the 4th's nor kakashi's style.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Well you also have to put into account that naruto has way more chakra then sasuke or kakashi. When jiraya teaches naruto how to use rasengan he tells him "you must use your chakra at full force and maintain form" so wouldnt that mean he has to realease as much chakra as possible like chidori?
Chidori aint more powerful then rasengan they are equal. if it was more powerful then instead of sasuke and naruto pushing each other back with it, sasuke would have gone right thru rasengan and hit naruto with chidori.
Again people keep talking about the elements and how kakashi pretty much uses all of them. They never said ninja are only able to do 1 or 2 elements. they said they can atleast do 2 that doesnt mean they cant do all of them. I think people are getting confused with how ninja have a natural element. All that means is they are natural at 1 element and are better at that 1 then any other element.
think of it this way you are born into the mist village which is a village of water users. maybe your family special is water except you are born with fire as your natural element. Most likely you are gonna be tought water moves until you later find out you have a natural fire afinity. like sasuke useing fire and naruto never even using a element.
Depends on the context, but I wouldnt be surprised if the training process involves alot more chakra than the end result. The final result of the training is one of the most efficient assassination jutsus ever created. But efficiency is the goal with the rasengan, until then you're just wasting massive chakra. Seriously though, how many rasengans in a day was naruto pumping out when he was training? At least a hundred. Back in those days, he had much less access to the kyubi's chakra, so I would highly doubt the two jutsus are a 1:1 ratio in terms of chakra usage.
The only demonstration of power we have to compare between is the rooftop scene where they both hit a water tower and sasuke's peirced the tower while naruto's blasted the whole backside off. With that later rematch, the rasengan didn't penetrate sasuke because sasuke hit naruto first...right in the chest. This pretty much stopped naruto instantly, including his rasengan.Chidori aint more powerful then rasengan they are equal. if it was more powerful then instead of sasuke and naruto pushing each other back with it, sasuke would have gone right thru rasengan and hit naruto with chidori.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
I agree with you except for one thing. The chidori/rasengan clash did not produce a winner simply because they needed both characters alive to continue the series. Thus, we have no idea which one is more powerful aside from the evidence that rasengan blew a bigger hole in the water tower (which I think was again a device to increase sasuke's anger).
AssertnFailure, you are only half correct. First, it is true that rasengen is more efficiency and finese because according of our Ero Sanin said "The charka continuely spin at the high speed thus the power is not decrease..." but he also said when Naruto fail at the third step, "You need to control 100% of your power and retain it... you can't lack it of" I didn't hear anything from Kakashi say that Chidori need to tap in 100% of your power.
Second, I don't really know the real number of how many complete Rasengan Naruto can perform because in manga, i don't remember that he ever use more than 3 times in one battle (When he fought with runaway Sasuke, Naruto used Rasengan 3 times, and that is it.) However, i wouldn't be surprise if Naruto can use Rasengan more than double or triple of that number or even more than that since according to Kakashi when he first begun teach Naruto of manipulate nature charka, he told Naruto that Naruto has at least double of his charka and maybe 100 times more if he has the help of Kuuybi. I fail to see with that strenght but Naruto can only use 3 to 6 Rasengan. Let's make the comparison a little easier; if Naruto can use Chidori, Kakashi can use Chidori 4 times a day, Naruto has 100 times more charka than Kakashi, isn't that mean that Naruto can use the Chidori 400 times a days. With 400 times, yeah, Naruto can do it all night with Chidori too (assuming that he can also use the Rasengan all night long -- more than 400 times). You compare one person with nearly unlimit amount of charka and one with very limit amount of charka by the amount of times that they can perform the jutsu and said that because one move use more charka than the other is unfair or no contest at all. if you want to compare, compare with only one person and the number of time on each move that person can perform.
Chidori deal more damage? I don't know but i wouldn't be surprise because according to the last few chapter, if one ninja can combine both Nature and form manipulating, his attack power increase dramatically. According to Kakashi, Chidori have both of that, "first change the charka into lighting, then using form manipulating of control the power and range." Rasengan only has form manipulating, so if Rasengan is a little weaker than Chidori isn't a weird thing.
is current Rasengan able to kill a man? I don't know i guess it can if Naruto really try too but up until now, nobody really die by Rasengan while with Chidori there was (remember Haku, Chidori completely went to his entire body, thus killing him instantly.) Remember when Naruto fought with Kabuto when they tried to locate Tsunade, Naruto hit Kabuto with the full force of Rasenga but Kabuto still didn't die. why? because of Kabuto healing power? I think that is only half of the answer. the other half would be because it didn't cut Kabuto instead it just damage him from the outside. For example, if you put a small amount of gunpower on the rock and light it. The damage is minimum, maybe a little piece of rock will fall off. However if you put that same amount to the inside of the rock and light it, the rock will break to pieces. That is what I think Kakashi and Naruto is doing right now, add the killing force of Rasengan by adding the cutting power to rasengan and make it become a real deathly move.
Don't confuse control with expel
There have been like, 3 different occasions where the limitations of the chidori was explicitly stated, yet not a single reference to a single limitation of the rasengan has been mentioned with the exception of kakashi saying its hard to fuse elemental jutsu to it. With the exception of the training, I haven't seen naruto phased one bit from any rasengan he's created.
yes, the power of electricity increases dramatically when form is applied. It increases it to the point where it can inflict almost as much damage as a rasengan =PChidori deal more damage? I don't know but i wouldn't be surprise because according to the last few chapter, if one ninja can combine both Nature and form manipulating, his attack power increase dramatically. According to Kakashi, Chidori have both of that, "first change the charka into lighting, then using form manipulating of control the power and range."
Yep. If kabuto didn't have that self-regeneration, he wouldve died. Simple as that.is current Rasengan able to kill a man?
Also, the fake itachi was killed by a rasengan.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
dragon608608:Rasengan doesn't need to cut you to kill you, thats the whole point behind it. It fucks you up from the inside (a la the water tank). And as assertn said, kabuto survived only cuz he could heal himself instantly.the other half would be because it didn't cut Kabuto instead it just damage him from the outside
yes it is able to kill, kabuto would have died if it wasnt for his healing. from what we've seen from rasengan it deals more damage to the inside of an opponent. when kabuto was hit his organs sustained major damage even with his healing ability he was sevearly injured there. yes while chidori is both form and natur manipulation rasengan is the highest form of form manipulation thats why its so distructive. If kakashi was able to put his lightining into rasengan it would have been way more damageing the chidori.
That is exactly what my point is. Kabuto didn't die instantly like Haku did.
Oh yeah, did the fake Itachi die? yes he did, he got eat up. but did he die from the impact, don't know, even if he is i wouldn't been surprise. Naruto pump so much charka to that odama Rasengan (he goes to Kuuybi mode). Naruto alone has twice as much charka as Kakashi, then Kuuybi mode (lvl 1) my guess at that mode his charka would has been at least 10 times as much as Kakashi to kill that guy. you can guess how much charka in that rasengan compare with the charka use of Kakashi normal chidori. I bet that Rasengan even has as much charka as the power up lvl 2 curse seal chidori that Sasuke perform. However, if he need to use that much charka to kill one person, yeah, one hell of effeciency Rasengan when you have to fought with a person like the real Itachi and above. That is why they are doing the training to be make Rasengan has more destructive force, so they don't need that much charka for Rasengan to kill.
Last edited by dragon608608; Mon, 09-04-2006 at 07:49 PM.
Well, how I see it is, is it easier to pierce through metal or human skin?
It's all about who's using the jutsu that makes it. I think there is many levels of control, like when you see Jiraiya use it on someone, he wanted it to have that effect, but if he wanted to he could've done it like Naruto did the water tower.
Oh common I cant believe you are discussing such an obvious thing. Rasengan needs the user to release the maximum amout of chakra he can and the retain it. Only this gives the rasengan and advantage towards chidori. You use only that amount of chakra. Chidori is a continous release and concentration of chakra.
We saw naruto doing like 100 rasengans in his training against the trees. Jiraya was doing 2 rasengans at the same time without any effort (this shows how great he is even kakashi felt a bit rushed in the picture of his rasengan, helping with his other hand).
The step 2 rasengan was cutting trees and stone and Jiraya made a whole in one tree. The rasengan doesnt lose his shape and the spining is at the users control so you could keep the rasengan going unstop piercing trough all the tree.
Of course if you hit a human it will fly away before you pierce trough him and Kishimoto wont show naruto making holes to their enemies. Hits produces a huge impact damage and launches the guy flying. Talking about Kabuto is ridiculous, Kishimoto wanted him alive so the rasengan didnt do all the damage it is supposed. We saw what it does to trees, stone and water tanks so killing a human should be easy, another thing is what the plot calls for.
The path of excess leads to the tower of wisdom
Kakashi is low on chakra and can perform 4 fully charged Chidoris while using his sharingan, which depletes him in about a day of normal usage. The high-speed-stab can be done with Rasengan/Sharingan the same way. So if everything is the same but Rasengan takes fewer chakra, than this is the first instance of the chakra-reserving Kakashi looking dumb.
There are other plot reasons of course, that range from signature-move to feeling more comfortable to looking cool.
Btw, I don't see where Chidori is easier to learn. Nature manipulation was said to be way more difficult than form manipulation and Rasengan is simply form manipulation (adminttedly, the most difficult). And after that, Rasengan is complete, yet Chidori still has to be combined, sth that was said to be very difficult too. Sakura with her superior chakra control and her progress during the Tsunade training probably could master Rasengan faster and better than Naruto did.
Well, water is a very favourable element to the chakra-whirl of the rasengan. Also, Naruto released the jutsu (Jiraiya simply made holes into the trees). Sasuke pulled his still activated chidori out of the water barrel.2) Chidori deals more damage? If both jutsus are capable of completely killing a man, then where does this analysis come from? If anything, I'd say the rooftop battle between naruto and sasuke suggests OTHERWISE.
Rasengan is a very powerful, blunt, freaking huge hammer right now. Kabuto could escape death by cell regeneration. That is sth that is simply not possible if there is an arm right through your heart.
So the damage difference I see is partly inherent in the jutsu and partly due to a experience gap of the user.
Naruto/Rasengan: 8 damage points
Kakashi/Chidori: 10 damage points
Naruto/Wind-Rasengan: 13->18 damage points (initial -> experienced)
IMHO.YMMV.
And do not forget the plot device. Rasengan is Naruto's move.But yeah, I'd say rasengan didn't compliment neither the 4th's nor kakashi's style.
And the 4th and Kakashi not being able to complete it, but Naruto doing so, is pushing the main charakter, the Hokage-thing and Naruto surpassing Kakashi during the training.
Without introduction of Kakashi doing basic Rasengan, Naruto would have achieved a combination jutsu of form and nature manipulation, just as Kakashis chidori. Now, he is able to learn a f/n-combination jutsu that Kakashi wasn't able to learn. Bingo!
--
"If you were young again, would you start writing TeX again or would you use Microsoft Word, or another word processor?
I hope to die before I have to use Microsoft Word." (Donald E. Knuth)
It's frustrating when an argument becomes cyclical, and the only facts I'm riding on are direct comparisons made by the manga writer himself. It's frustrating in the sense that its so obvious it should be one of those things that go without saying. The rooftop scene was meant to reveal the difference between Naruto and Sasuke's latent abilities, without having to result in someone physically dying. It was meant to put Sasuke in a sense of desperation for falling behind Naruto. You're basing all your facts on very situational conditions, while ignoring common anime conventions of revealing strength through association.
If you're going to say that chidori is actually stronger than rasengan, then you might as well disregard the motive behind the whole climax into the sasuke chase arc.
Also, a situation where one thing may have worked better than another hardly merits for it to be universally superior. In most cases, an internal explosion would be much deadlier than a piercing jab. Also note, kabuto started the regeneration process before naruto even landed the blow. Had he not done so, the rasengan could've penetrated through his body just the same. You're assuming kabuto can't regenerate a hole in his chest, but has there been any reason to assume this? Naruto healed a hole in his chest, and both have similiar regenerative capabilities. However, with the rasengan, the massive internal damage is what depleted kabuto's regenerative chakra.
Last edited by Assertn; Tue, 09-05-2006 at 11:21 AM.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Look guys, this is a pretty trivial matter. As much as I'm up for healthy debate, it sucks when the same thing has been repeated a billion times, and the opposing side doesn't even take it into account (like the Neji vs. Sasuke).
Now, I wonder how powerful Naruto's "wind" rasengan will be. If rasengan was only a half completed technique, and Naruto can do Odama rasengan, think of how much raw power a rasengan fused with an element will deal. Not just any element though, wind element, the strongest in terms of brute strength. It's almost overboard if you think about it.
Just as long as Naruto doesn't combine the rasengan with the taju kagemane bunshin jutsu: kind of a massive Super Naruto Kamakaze attack al-la Gotenks, I'll be happy.
I know, I cannot spell, but I'm sure you get the picture.
When Naruto does master his training, Kishi is going to give Sasuke equal or greater abilities I think. He always does gain better abilities than Naruto. Maybe his sharingan will let him use form and nature manipulation. It's really not out of debate since it can somehow do so much already.
um... sasuke already has that move that orochimaru stopped him from using, perhaps its his variation of naruto and form manipulation
my artwork : http://rasendori.deviantart.com/
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