http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13823680/
Isn't one of our fellow GWers in the Israeli army? I hope he's safe, you know?
Anyways, I feel like there hasn't been much discussion in here about current events lately. Thoughts on this so-called war? Did Israel act too rashly? What was Lebanon thinking when they captured those two soldiers anyway? Come in and share, rant, whatever ^^ Just remember to keep it civil
OHNOES, WW3!!!!
I'm just not sure what to say about this, other than that war and killing is pretty stupid.
Originally Posted by Genma
Actually many people believe this is the start of world war 3, as John Stewert..or was that Steven Colbert?...hmm... took clips from many news channels with about 9 people going "yes this is indeed the start of world war 3" then finally theres a guy going "world war 4!" and everybody stares at him.
Honoko, I don't really think the US should get involved, we stick our noses into too many affairs.
LaZie made this...a long time ago.
"It was a very depressing time in my life, since I had no money I was unable to screw the rules" -Kaiba
You know, it would be really nice if the US just sits back and watch things happen without getting involved. I admit that tends to be my personal style whenever conflicts arise among my friends and stuff.
The only reason I think the US needs to get involved is because, well, this country is pretty much the only superpower in the world who should (based on the so-called principles this country was based on) give a shit about the rest of the world. I don't think it takes a super intelligent person to realize that what's going on over there is either not right or if justified, totally overkill. By not getting involved (and holding back the UN), the US is showing that they are one greedy, lazy country who thinks they could do whatever they want with total disregard for their fellow nations.
The US is already involved. Its just that some people are finding it a bit of a shock to discover how cruel the foreign policy of the US is... its taking time to sink in.
US rushes precision-guided bombs to Israel
It seems to me that the US is trying to drag Syria away from Iran, thus making any future attack on either of the two countries easier. In a sense the talks have already begun, with the intial positions being that the US will not call for a ceasefire and Syria is willing to talk but with no conditions being dicated. As for the people of Lebanon, the US frankly doesn't give a shit. And while all this is going on people seem to be forgetting that Israel is still attacking Gaza.
Israel has destroyed Lebanon's infrastructure, without really harming Hizbullah. That's why ground operations are now being conducted. The result of the air strikes is over 330 people dead in Lebanon, many more injured and over half a million displaced from their homes. Not counting the loss of income, Lebanon seems to have suffered billions of dollars of damage.
I don't think Lebanon will be the same again, with its disintegration into a land of warring tribes looking more likely than recovery. It has enough ethnic/religious/tribal diversity to allow this to happen.
Just got this fwd. Found it interesting and decided to share with all of you guys.
Its pretty long but I found its worth it.
WHAT ARE THEY FIGHTING FOR
Tanya Reinhart
Dear All,
Remember Tanya, she was here in Sacramento about 2 years ago? This article is exceptionably helpful in explaining the frightening events in Lebanon, Patestine and Israel.
Peace to all of us,
Mary Bisharat
A shorter version of this article was scheduled to appear Thursday, July 13 in Yediot Aharonot, but postponed to next week because of the developments in Southern Lebanon. (*)
Whatever may be the fate of the captive soldier Gilad Shalit, the Israeli army's war in Gaza is not about him. As senior security analyst Alex Fishman widely reported, the army was preparing for an attack months earlier and was constantly pushing for it, with the goal of destroying the Hamas infrastructure and its government. The army initiated an escalation on 8 June when it assassinated Abu Samhadana, a senior appointee of the Hamas government, and intensified its shelling of civilians in the Gaza Strip. Governmental authorization for action on a larger scale was already given by 12 June, but it was postponed in the wake of the global reverberation caused by the killing of civilians in the air force bombing the next day. The abduction of the soldier released the safety-catch, and the operation began on 28 June with the destruction of infrastructure in Gaza and the mass detention of the Hamas leadership in the West Bank, which was also planned weeks in advance. (1)
In Israeli discourse, Israel ended the occupation in Gaza when it evacuated its settlers from the Strip, and the Palestinians' behavior therefore constitutes ingratitude. But there is nothing further from reality than this description. In fact, as was already stipulated in
the Disengagement Plan, Gaza remained under complete Israeli military control, operating from outside. Israel prevented any possibility of economic independence for the Strip and from the very beginning, Israel did not implement a single one of the clauses of the agreement on border-crossings of November 2005. Israel simply substituted the
expensive occupation of Gaza with a cheap occupation, one which in Israel's view exempts it from the occupier's responsibility to maintain the Strip, and from concern for the welfare and the lives of its million and a half residents, as determined in the fourth Geneva convention.
Israel does not need this piece of land, one of the most densely populated in the world,
and lacking any natural resources. The problem is that one cannot let Gaza free, if one wants to keep the West Bank. A third of the occupied Palestinians live in the Gaza strip. If they are given freedom, they would become the center of Palestinian struggle
for liberation, with free access to the Western and Arab world. To control the West Bank, Israel needs full control Gaza. The new form of control Israel has developed is turning the whole of the Strip into a prison camp completely sealed from the world.
Besieged occupied people with nothing to hope for, and no alternative means of political struggle, will always seek ways to fight their oppressor. The imprisoned Gaza Palestinians found a way to disturb the life of the Israelis in the vicinity of the Strip, by launching
home-made Qassam rockets across the Gaza wall against Israeli towns
bordering the Strip. These primitive rockets lack the precision to focus on a target, and have rarely caused Israeli casualties; they do however cause physical and psychological damage and seriously disturb life in the targeted Israeli neighborhoods. In the eyes of many Palestinians, the Qassams are a response to the war Israel has declared on them.
As a student from Gaza said to the New York Times, "Why should we be the
only ones who live in fear? With these rockets, the Israelis feel fear,
too. We will have to live in peace together, or live in fear together." (2)
The mightiest army in the Middle East has no military answer to these home-made rockets. One answer that presents itself is what Hamas has been proposing all along, and Haniyeh repeated this week - a comprehensive cease-fire. Hamas has proven already that it can keep its word. In the 17 months since it announced its decision to abandon
armed struggle in favor of political struggle, and declared a unilateral cease-fire ("tahdiya" - calm), it did not participate in the launching of Qassams, except under severe Israeli provocation, as happened in the June escalation. However, Hamas remains committed to political struggle against the occupation of Gaza and the West Bank. In Israel's view,
the Palestinians elections results is a disaster, because for the first time >they have a leadership that insists on representing Palestinian interests rather than just collaborating with Israel's demands.
Since ending the occupation is the one thing Israel is not willing to consider, the option promoted by the army is breaking the Palestinians by devastating brutal force. They should be starved, bombarded,terrorized with sonic booms for months,
until they understand that rebelling is futile, and accepting prison life is their only hope for
staying alive. Their elected political system, institutions and police should be destroyed. In Israel's vision, Gaza should be ruled by gangs collaborating with the prison wards.
The Israeli army is hungry for war. It would not let concerns for captive soldiers stand in its way. Since 2002 the army has argued that an "operation" along the lines of "Defensive Shield" in Jenin was also necessary in Gaza. Exactly a year ago, on 15 July (before the
Disengagement), the army concentrated forces on the border of the Strip
for an offensive of this scale on Gaza. But then the USA imposed a veto. Rice arrived for an emergency visit that was described as acrimonious and stormy, and the army was forced to back down (3). Now, the time has finally came. With the
Islamophobia of the American Administration at a high point, it appears that the USA is prepared to authorize such an operation, on condition that it not provoke a global outcry with excessively-reported attacks on civilians.(4)
With the green light for the offensive given, the army's only concern is public image. Fishman reported this Tuesday that the army is worried that "what threatens to burry this huge military and diplomatic effort" is reports of the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Hence, the army would take care to let some food into Gaza. (5) From this perspective, it is
necessary to feed the Palestinians in Gaza so that it would be possible to continue to kill them undisturbed.
==============
*Parts of this article were translated from Hebrew by Mark Marshall.
(1) Alex Fishman, Who is for the elimination of Hamas, Yediot Aharonot
Saturday Supplement, June 30, 2006. See also Alex Fishman, The
safety-catch released, Yediot Aharonot June 21, 2006 (Hebrew), Aluf
Benn, An operation with two goals, Ha'aretz, June 29 2006.
(2) Greg Myre, Rockets Create a 'Balance of Fear' With Israel, Gaza
Residents Say. The New York Times, July 9, 2006.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/09/wo...tml?ex=1310097
(3) Steven Erlanger, "U.S. Presses Israel to Smooth the Path to a
Palestinian Gaza", New York Times, August 7 2005.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/in...rssnyt&emc=rss
<http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/07/international/middleeast/07israel.html?ex=1281067200&en=82f12ac7eed5ee24&ei =5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss>
The planned July 2005 offensive is documented in detail in my The Road
Map to Nowhere - Israel Palestine since 2003, Verso, September 2006.
(4) For a detailed survey of the U.S. administration's present stands,
see Ori Nir, U.S. Seen Backing Israeli Moves To Topple Hamas, The
Forward, July 7, 2006. http://www.forward.com/articles/8063
(5) Alex Fishman, Their food is finished, Yediot Aharonot, July 11,2006.
http://www.tau.ac.il/~reinhart <http://www.tau.ac.il/%7Ereinhart>
i haven't looked too far into it yet. US domestic politics is pretty hairy these days (Dick Cheney and Karl Rove are facing lawsuits for leaking a CIA agent's identity...)
but i would say from what I heard that the counter by Israel is probably a bit too heavy handed. I'm not saying it's not justified, but i do think it's a poor course of action. Yes you should be able to go kill the people who captured your soldiers, but over 50 Lebanese civilians, who probably had absolutely nothing to do with the event, are dead because Israel decided to fire off their guns.
Hezbollah is a mess, any factions within Lebanon are going to use the chaos as opportunity and Israel could be facing a much more dangerous neighbor in the near future.
Humans are different from animals. We must die for a reason. Now is the time for us to regulate ourselves and reclaim our dignity. The one who holds endless potential and displays his strength and kindness to the world. Only mankind has God, a power that allows us to go above and beyond what we are now, a God that we call "possibility".
For those against war is has given us great things. Not those ideals or concepts that most people say but its taken countries out of depression, started maggot therapy, many advances in technology that save lives and make them easier. I am not saying its all good but you can't cast the entire concept of war in a black light. It has many positives.
I believe it's Death BOO Z who recently had his birthday who is in the Israeli army. Back when we had the community pages he wrote some interesting blogs about life in the army (made me feel so much less secure about armed forces in general after hearing his stories). I hope he's alright. His unit didn't sound like one they would sent to the front lines, at least, I hope they wouldn't.
The whole Israel thing is just rotten. Both sides have a claim to the land, the Arabs for being denied representation in the Israeli government when it was formed and Israel because it was formed and is now a soverign nation. The Israeli's aren't going anywhere and I don't think sharing power is ever going to work as well, in someways it might have been better if a religiously neutral 3rd party still controlled the entire area, as the two sides would ideally be equally under the controlling body.
Unfortunately now we have a situation where many muslims (I doubt a majority however) see the existance of Isreal as an insult and an outrage and seek to destroy it as a nation and reclaim it as muslim controlled territory. These same muslims generally espouse a desire for a unified Islamic State controlling all the lands predominantly held by muslims, if not the whole world.
The best outcome of the current situation is for Isreal to get its people back and cease it's attacks against Lebannon. The worst case scenario is far beyond my knowledge of the current climate in the Middle East but It would probably involve declarations of war by/on Syria and/or Iran by/on Isreal. If Iran got involved militarily it would have to send its forces through either Iraq or Turkey.
We all know that Iraq is full of US troops, who would not look kindly on what would amount to an Iranian invasion of Iraq. US troops would likely stop the Iranians at the boarder, which could easily turn into shooting. Alternatively only an complete idiot would drive through Turkey without permission or a very good reason. Thus Turkey and the US could get dragged into the conflict. Once the US gets involved militarily who know's what will happen. Publicly I support the getting the people back and returning to the status quo stance, but I imagine Israel is becoming tired of pulling its punches with respect to the numerous groups constantly picking on it, this hostage situation could be the straw that launched Isreal onto the muslim world with enough fury and technological advantage to send several middle easten countries back to the Dark Ages, unfortunately this wouldn't stop the zealots and would just cause worthless destruction on a massive scale.
Well, the capture of the 2 Israeli soldiers was done by Lebonese terrorists, no? And in ref to your last paragraph, Yuki, yes, Israel's just tired of people coming into their borders from wherever and blowing up places. So the capture that sparked this whole mess is like the last straw. My personal concern is that Lebanon is a weak country with a weak government. Destroying a country like that will only make Israel look like a bully. Plus, how can a weak government in the first place have the military to even take care of Hezbollah themselves?
And then you have the whole Iran connection. Israel's accusing Iran of knowing that the captive Israelis are being moved to that country, which, of course Iran totally denies. But that's the reasoning behind bombing the airport over and over again. Supposed intelligence claims that Iran uses that airport to ship its terrorists into. I personally feel that this is all way too overboard. And Hezbollah is a group of retards that were playing with fire. (Well, not an intelligent thing to say, but let's face it, they could have not captured the soldiers, right?)
I never said it didn't have positives. The fact that you have to kill hundreds or thousands of people to "accomplish" something is ridiculous and stupid, though, and there is probably a better way.
The only war I can honestly think of being justified is WWII.
Of course at the end of a war there will be positives, and during (such as a more prosperous economy), but usually the road to get there isn't worth the outcome. Vietnam, Korea... the list goes on.
I'm not an avid anti-war activist by any means, I just don't think it's a great thing. Especially if you throw the lives of thousands of civilians in danger simply because another country kidnapped two of your soldiers... well, that's just plain stupid.
Justified as in, the US being dragged into it? Please elaborate before misunderstandings occur
How was WWII more justified than all of the other wars?
- I don't know, people say that all the time, and never really understood the differences between that war and all of the other wars.
Last edited by Xollence; Fri, 07-14-2006 at 10:52 AM.
The West Bank is one of the hottist zones and has been for some time there is alot more then this that is going on and if you look and the countries involved with this all it gets confusing to say the least.
The West Bank is a landlocked territory on the west bank of the Jordan River in the Middle East. It is considered by the United Nations and most countries to be under Israeli occupation. Some Israelis and various other groups prefer to refer to it as "disputed" rather than "occupied" territory. It is not currently considered under international law to be a de jure part of any state.
The borders of the West Bank were defined by the 1948 Arab-Israeli War armistice lines after the dissolution of the British mandate of Palestine, when it was captured and annexed by Jordan. From 1948 until 1967 the area was under Jordanian rule, though Jordan did not give up its claim to the area until 1988. The area was captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, although with the exception of East Jerusalem, it was not annexed by Israel due to the concern of the overwhelming amount of Palestinian people it would control. Prior to 1948 the area was part of the British Mandate created after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire. Located west and south-west of the Jordan River in the eastern part of the Palestine region in the Middle East, it is bordered by Israel to the west, north, and south, and by Jordan to the east. 40% of the area (including most of the population) is under the limited civilian jurisdiction of the Palestinian Authority, while Israel maintains overall control (including over Israeli settlements, rural areas, and border regions). The population of the West Bank is predominantly Palestinian (84%) with a significant minority of Jewish settlers.
The Palestinian people believe that the West Bank ought to be a part of their sovereign nation, and that the presence of Israeli military control is a violation of their right to self-determination. The United Nations calls the West Bank and Gaza Strip Israeli-occupied (see Israeli-occupied territories). The United States generally agrees with this definition. Many Israelis and their supporters prefer the term disputed territories, claiming it comes closer to a neutral point of view; this viewpoint is not accepted by most other countries, which consider "occupied" to be the neutral description of status.
Israel argues that its presence is justified because:
Israel's eastern border has never been defined by anyone;
The disputed territories have not been part of any state (Jordanian annexation was never officially recognized) since the time of the Ottoman Empire;
According to the Camp David Accords (1978) with Egypt, the 1994 agreement with Jordan and the Oslo Accords with the PLO, the final status of the territories would be fixed only when there was a permanent agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.
Now I remember the Yom Kippur War, Ramadan War or October War between Israel and a coalition of Arab nations led by Egypt and Syria. The war began on the day of Yom Kippur with a surprise joint attack by Egypt and Syria. They invaded the Sinai and Golan Heights, respectively, which had been captured by Israel in 1967 during the Six-Day War.The Egyptians and Syrians advanced during the first 24–48 hours, after which momentum began to swing in Israel's favor. By the second week of the war, the Syrians had been pushed entirely out of the Golan Heights. In the Sinai to the south, the Israelis had struck at the "seam" between two invading Egyptian armies, crossed the Suez Canal (where the old ceasefire line had been), and cut off an entire Egyptian army just as a United Nations cease-fire came into effect.
The war had far-reaching implications for many nations. The Arab world, which had been humiliated by the lopsided defeat of the Egyptian-Syrian-Jordanian alliance during the Six-Day War, felt psychologically vindicated by its string of victories early in the conflict. This vindication paved the way for the peace process that followed, as well as liberalizations such as Egypt's infitah policy. The Camp David Accords, which came soon after, led to normalized relations between Egypt and Israel—the first time any Arab country had recognized the Israeli state.
As such if you take down 3 or more different Armies at one time many people have alot to fear. This is why Israel may be pushing their luck, but I fear they be pushing it to far recently
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