The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya

[fireheart]

Everyone picked it up because Haruhi gave it.

His real name remains a mystery.

I thought it was his grandmom or something that gave him his nickname, after which his little sister kept using it all the time that and so it spreed to his friends so he had Kyon as nickname even before Haruhi started calling him that.

Also this took me way to long to realize but with Kyon going back in time and helping Haruhi paint the grounds it gives Haruhis (Before she cut her hair) question to Kyon if they've met before a different meaning.

And how about Kyon really is the key character? After all he's the only recurring character we don't know the full name. Even his sister was addressed as "imouto".
Everything really evolves around him and Haruhi is one of the many interests he has, she also is a distraction from the very fact he is God in that universe.

Regarding his sister, I get the feeling she could be Mikuru.

I'd rather not think of Asahina as Kyons sister, for one there's the whole incest thing and the fact that Asahina (adult) seem to miss Kyon which implies he doesn't exist in her time not to mention her whole line to Kyon telling him not to fall in love with her since it's more or less implied that she harbors feelings for him as well. So if they're siblings she wouldn't miss him unless he's dead and if that's the case she probably wouldn't let him die. Also she wouldn't really be so awkward around her own brother considering the difference in how his sister treats him and Asahina unless she's one heck of an actress.

In that case, that would mean that the "normalised, shy Yuki" still had the power to change everything back - just that she made herself lose that bit of memory. Just to make my intentions clear, I was asking that question because I wanted to see if shy-Yuki really was powerless, or whether she only did a memory wipe on herself.

My interpretation was that shy Nagato doesn't have any powers at all and that the needle probably changed shy Nagato back to alien Nagato and thus she was able to change the world back. While Haruhis powers may lie inside shy Nagato in some form of dormant state I still think of her as a normal powerless girl.

I wondered more about Kyon than Nagato. Ok so we know he spent 3 days in the altered world and in the normal world during those 3 days he fell down the stairs and went into a coma. So which Kyon ended up in a coma? From what we've seen it's the altered version of Kyon that wakes up which should mean it's that Kyon but if it is what happened to the normal Kyon and where did he go? Who spent that day in school and ended up in a coma since altered Kyon doesn't remember that at all.

I'm not sure where I read this, but I saw some interpretation that all Yuki rewrote data from the past, while Haruhi could completely ditch this universe and start a new one. In other words, Yuki changes the past (and the resulting present), while Haruhi can create data in realtime and make things happen now.

That works for me. In that case, "stolen" refers not to "taking Haruhi's powers from herself and putting it in Yuki", but "Yuki using the same methods of data changing to change the past, rewriting Haruhi's past in such a way that she no longer has those powers in the current world."

From the sound of Nagatos explanation all she did was use Haruhis data generating ability to rewrite the past. So in a way you could say that Haruhi created a big rock and that Nagato refined the rock into various tools. This works since Haruhi is merely creating a bunch of data without any knowledge and therefor leaves all the data scattered around and as long as she does that it means someone else is able to manipulate that data. So theoretically Haruhi should be able to change the past as well.

The question is were the data generating ability went after the Nagato rewrote the world since if the ability doesn't exist in that world how did they change the world back. Or is there enough data scattered around to be able to change the world back? Or does it lie dormant inside shy Nagato.

[Buffalobiian]

Everyone picked it up because Haruhi gave it.

His real name remains a mystery.

When did she give it? I was under the impression she gave it in private, like in their first SOS meeting.

And in this case, he shouldn't have the name "Kyon" in Disappearance since Haruhi was never there to give it to him.

edit: missed a lot of posts. Just saw Fireheart's.

The question is were the data generating ability went after the Nagato rewrote the world since if the ability doesn't exist in that world how did they change the world back. Or is there enough data scattered around to be able to change the world back? Or does it lie dormant inside shy Nagato.

Perhaps it's in the gun. It was the reverse program, after all.

I wondered more about Kyon than Nagato. Ok so we know he spent 3 days in the altered world and in the normal world during those 3 days he fell down the stairs and went into a coma. So which Kyon ended up in a coma? From what we've seen it's the altered version of Kyon that wakes up which should mean it's that Kyon but if it is what happened to the normal Kyon and where did he go? Who spent that day in school and ended up in a coma since altered Kyon doesn't remember that at all.

....

what?


edit: oh. I think I get you. I don't think it works like that though, since that would imply that both the Altered world and the Normal world co-existed. That wasn't the case, as Asahina explained that the current one was altered all along, rather than a parallel universe phenomenon. Nagato must have reversed the memory changes of everyone up to December 18th, wrote and conjoured up everyone else's memories to fill in the 3 days until December 21st, then "pressed play" when Kyon woke up.

Just as she rewrote everyone's memories except Kyon's in her Altered world, she recovered, then altered everyone's in the Normal one, except Kyon's and her own.

[shinta|hikari]

I actually forgot where Kyon got his nickname. I just went off what you said.

I think it lies dormant in Nagato since she lost her memories. If it were the gun, what's the point of sticking it into a powerless meganekko?

[Buffalobiian]

I actually forgot where Kyon got his nickname. I just went off what you said.

Kyon looked at Haruhi weirdly when she said "what idiot would name you Kyon" or something. I assumed it was Haruhi.

I haven't verified.

I think it lies dormant in Nagato since she lost her memories. If it were the gun, what's the point of sticking it into a powerless meganekko?

I guess so. They mentioned that everyone's memories were altered, so I guess their body composition wasn't. Nagato, shy or not, was still an alien.

btw, did a few edits in my previous post.

[fireheart]

edit: oh. I think I get you. I don't think it works like that though, since that would imply that both the Altered world and the Normal world co-existed. That wasn't the case, as Asahina explained that the current one was altered all along, rather than a parallel universe phenomenon. Nagato must have reversed the memory changes of everyone up to December 18th, wrote and conjoured up everyone else's memories to fill in the 3 days until December 21st, then "pressed play" when Kyon woke up.

Just as she rewrote everyone's memories except Kyon's in her Altered world, she recovered, then altered everyone's in the Normal one, except Kyon's and her own.

Almost what I was thinking but I was mostly thinking on the night that Nagato changed the world back and forth there existed a total of 3 Kyons. One was probably in his bed sleeping, the second one got stabbed and the third one watched himself get stabbed and then "fixed" the world.

So we can assume the third one just went back into the future to his own time together with Asahina and Nagatao whom he came with.

But what happened to the other two? Generally speaking if he travels in time that should mean he have to return to the time from where he came which the second one did and woke up in the hospital. That still leaves the first one unaccounted for unless he's the one that went back in time but that doesn't make any sense either.

Hope that explains more what I was wondering about.



I'm fairly certain about Kyons little sister spreading his nickname around, though I can't say for sure who came up with it. As I said I think it was his grandmom but I could be wrong.

[Buffalobiian]

Almost what I was thinking but I was mostly thinking on the night that Nagato changed the world back and forth there existed a total of 3 Kyons. One was probably in his bed sleeping, the second one got stabbed and the third one watched himself get stabbed and then "fixed" the world.

So we can assume the third one just went back into the future to his own time together with Asahina and Nagatao whom he came with.

But what happened to the other two? Generally speaking if he travels in time that should mean he have to return to the time from where he came which the second one did and woke up in the hospital. That still leaves the first one unaccounted for unless he's the one that went back in time but that doesn't make any sense either.

Hope that explains more what I was wondering about.

Ah, I get you now. Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm not sure what to think of it all myself, since all the "fixing" was left out for future material. What trips this up is that it doesn't play like a single timeline if the reset was performed on December 18th, and the Altered world supposedly never happened.

Interesting.

[KrayZ33]

huh? Kyon got called Kyon since middle school or even before

his friends called him that before he even met Haruhi

edit: woops lol didnt refresh to last page.

[shinta|hikari]

Almost what I was thinking but I was mostly thinking on the night that Nagato changed the world back and forth there existed a total of 3 Kyons. One was probably in his bed sleeping, the second one got stabbed and the third one watched himself get stabbed and then "fixed" the world.

So we can assume the third one just went back into the future to his own time together with Asahina and Nagatao whom he came with.

But what happened to the other two? Generally speaking if he travels in time that should mean he have to return to the time from where he came which the second one did and woke up in the hospital. That still leaves the first one unaccounted for unless he's the one that went back in time but that doesn't make any sense either.

1st Kyon = The one sleeping on the bed. The one shown in the start of the movie and got all panicky when everything changed. (This one slept through the 1st AND 2nd conversion of the world, and woke up the next day on the same bed.)

2nd Kyon = The one who went back, met adult Mikuru, and got stabbed. (This one woke up at the hospital in the correct version of the world after everything changed.)

3rd Kyon = The one who went back to save the 2nd Kyon with Nagato. (This one went back to where he came from, sometime in the future of the movie.)

Now if you're wondering why the 2nd and 3rd Kyon could exist if the 1st Kyon never experienced the 1st conversion (due to the 2 other Kyons' actions), that is called a time paradox.

[Buffalobiian]

Could you define the first and second conversation Shinta?

[shinta|hikari]

Conversion = When Nagato changed the world.

[fireheart]

1st Kyon = The one sleeping on the bed. The one shown in the start of the movie and got all panicky when everything changed. (This one slept through the 1st AND 2nd conversion of the world, and woke up the next day on the same bed.)

2nd Kyon = The one who went back, met adult Mikuru, and got stabbed. (This one woke up at the hospital in the correct version of the world after everything changed.)

3rd Kyon = The one who went back to save the 2nd Kyon with Nagato. (This one went back to where he came from, sometime in the future of the movie.)

Now if you're wondering why the 2nd and 3rd Kyon could exist if the 1st Kyon never experienced the 1st conversion (due to the 2 other Kyons' actions), that is called a time paradox.

No I'm not wondering about the second or third Kyon just the first one. I'm fine with the fact that the second and third Kyon exists that was never something I questioned. But given that the first Kyon went through both conversions as you say then he should have woken up in the corrected world as a separate Kyon that didn't go through the whole ordeal. But then again the second Kyon also woke up in the corrected world only difference is that he did so several days later so what happened to the first one that experienced the normal world? So it's not quite the time paradox either that bothers me, guess you can say it's more like the combination of how Buffalobiian perceived my question with parallel worlds and yours with time paradoxes. I think of the first and second one as different Kyons one in the corrected and one in the altered world while the second and third one are basically the same both lived through the altered world.

If the first one is the same as the second one only a "younger" version of him then that explains where he ended up but it still doesn't answer what happened to Kyon that should exist in the corrected world during those 3 days. Since I'm assuming that Koizumi is speaking the truth about what happened to Kyon, so who was that Kyon? The second one have no recollection of it so it can't be him. It could be explained with false memories as Buffalobiian mentioned but I'm not quite willing to buy that yet since there's no reason for Nagato to implant false memories as the world was only changed for a brief moment and therefor only needs correction for that short span of time not the whole 3 days. Hence there's still one Kyon that's unaccounted for, I don't think there's an answer to my question really it's just what made me wonder the most. Starting to think I'm pretty horrible at explaining myself.

[Buffalobiian]

Conversion = When Nagato changed the world.

Ah. Damn misreading.

I was thinking..there was an awful amount of conversation in that movie, which one?

Starting to think I'm pretty horrible at explaining myself.

It's more that the situation is mind-boggling.

[fireheart]

Not sure if this is the right place but don't know where else to post it.

It seems there will be a game that continues or expands on Disappearance. It's suppose to be The Reminiscences of Suzumiya Haruhi but when I checked the name of the novels it didn't come up so I don't know.

[shinta|hikari]

If the first one is the same as the second one only a "younger" version of him then that explains where he ended up but it still doesn't answer what happened to Kyon that should exist in the corrected world during those 3 days. Since I'm assuming that Koizumi is speaking the truth about what happened to Kyon, so who was that Kyon? The second one have no recollection of it so it can't be him. It could be explained with false memories as Buffalobiian mentioned but I'm not quite willing to buy that yet since there's no reason for Nagato to implant false memories as the world was only changed for a brief moment and therefor only needs correction for that short span of time not the whole 3 days. Hence there's still one Kyon that's unaccounted for, I don't think there's an answer to my question really it's just what made me wonder the most. Starting to think I'm pretty horrible at explaining myself.

Alternative scenario to the memory implant theory: When Nagato changed the world after the gun was used on her, everything was rewritten, except Kyon and Nagato's (and her allies') memories. Nagato rewrote the entire 3 days, not just the memories of the others. Kyon and Nagato retained their memories of those 3 days. Koizumi is telling the truth about the events, but the 2nd Kyon (the one that got stabbed) returned to the 3rd day and overwrote the 1st Kyon (the one that supposedly fell down the stairs) as part of Nagato's program. Nagato could have just as easily removed Kyon's memories, but I'm sure her attachment to him wouldn't let her. I mean, the entire movie was pretty much a confession of her feelings for Kyon.

[Buffalobiian]

Alternative scenario to the memory implant theory: When Nagato changed the world after the gun was used on her, everything was rewritten, except Kyon and Nagato's (and her allies') memories. Nagato rewrote the entire 3 days, not just the memories of the others. Kyon and Nagato retained their memories of those 3 days. Koizumi is telling the truth about the events, but the 2nd Kyon (the one that got stabbed) returned to the 3rd day and overwrote the 1st Kyon (the one that supposedly fell down the stairs) as part of Nagato's program. Nagato could have just as easily removed Kyon's memories, but I'm sure her attachment to him wouldn't let her. I mean, the entire movie was pretty much a confession of her feelings for Kyon.

I find it hard to swallow that Kyon#2 just repleaces Kyon#1.

[shinta|hikari]

It's basically what happened in any scenario.

Even if we go with the memory change thing, Kyon 1 should still not have any memories of Kyon 2. It's not like Kyon 1 died. They are the same person after all.

Just think of it this way. The rewrite program basically replaced everyone else with another version of themselves. Why is it hard to swallow that Kyon experienced the same?

[Buffalobiian]

It's basically what happened in any scenario.

Even if we go with the memory change thing, Kyon 1 should still not have any memories of Kyon 2. It's not like Kyon 1 died. They are the same person after all.

But at the same time, different.

Just think of it this way. The rewrite program basically replaced everyone else with another version of themselves. Why is it hard to swallow that Kyon experienced the same?

It's hard because discounting Kyon#3 who would have gone back to the future, Kyon#2 and Kyon#1 are two entities. The other people around at that time (aside from adult Mikuru) only have one copy that they had to "modify".

I think what you're suggesting is that instead of a "modify", Nagato reconstructs everyone, but instead of reconstructing Kyon#1, Kyon#2 just steps in.

[shinta|hikari]

Modification or reconstruction, the fact that they are not the same people as before remains unchanged. The same goes for Kyon 1 and 2. The mechanics between the two types may not be exact (since the others lost their memory, but Kyon 2 retained his), but the principle behind it is the same. The older version is gone, replaced by a new one.

If you find trouble with the different mechanics, then I can't really say much except that is how Nagato chose to play it. The difference is quite irrelevant in terms of possibility/feasibility because Nagato's ability allows her to do as much without trouble.

[fireheart]

The theory isn't bad I only have a one problem with it, like you mentioned Nagatos feelings for Kyon I have a hard time believing that she would more or less "kill" Kyon which is basically what she would do if she replaced Kyon 1 with Kyon 2. It was one of the possibilities I had in mind but dismissed for the simple reason that I still can't picture Nagato doing it. Guess I just prefer the idea of another Kyon that's somewhere else in time.

As for the changes Nagato did I think that instead of actually writing a full 3 days for everyone she merely used a form of restore point. At least to me that seemed like the most likely possibility for changing the world back after everything changed back it should be pretty easy to make sure that Kyon ends up in the hospital without any damage.

[shinta|hikari]

I don't think Nagato viewed it as killing Kyon 1, but saving Kyon (all versions). The two of them simply can't exist as separate entities since they aren't.