wow he is an asshole... someone kill him.. plz?
also, as for now, he didn't receive any donation (only been 7 day since he restart, but still, 7 day without any donation! lol)
Received as of 01/03/2006: $0 USD
wow he is an asshole... someone kill him.. plz?
also, as for now, he didn't receive any donation (only been 7 day since he restart, but still, 7 day without any donation! lol)
Received as of 01/03/2006: $0 USD
Question:
When the guy from NarutoFan doesnt make the subs of manga and anime by himself, WHY are the subber groups so dumb to let him make profit with THEIR work?
If i remember correctly, at the beginning of every episode an anime says "not for rental or resale purpose", so doesnt that mean, noone is allowed to make money with it?
And if the guy simply takes the subbed material without asking or giving the subbers money, then they should just start campaign against him...yeah, some action ^^
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
Don't be naive, MFauli. I'm pretty sure not a single subber group wants somebody else to cash with their work (and not only because of the unwanted attention it could cause). However, what the subbers are doing is not legal, either. It's just not likely to gather so much attention, because no business is involved. But in the real world the subber groups' options are limited. All they can do is to complain or cease their work. They can't very well take any official action, because they don't own the rights to the video/audio. Technically they do own rights to the subtitles and subtitling layout, but it would be hard to explain that to the police.
Short of the fansubbers finding out where this guy lives, there's not much that can be done other than trying to get people to stop paying this guy. Once the money stops flowing in, the website will shut down and all will be back to how it was. Doubtful that we can get that going, though. We need an address, then we could beat some sense into this guy's head. With a bat.
"Pudding can't fill the emptiness inside me! But it'll help."
But wouldnt this guy get serious problems, if the police finds out his kind of buisness?
A seventeen year old boy, earning many thousand dollars through offering the work of others?
True, there could come up problems to subbers as well (worst case: no more subbing), but then, does this boy really take into account, ruining his life, by ruining the subbers work?
"She's the only non-loli girl in the show, your honor!" will be my defense in court
Why does everyone keep bringing up his age? It'll only matter if he gets charged as a minor or an adult, if he ever gets charged for it. Which he wouldn't, since this would be a civil lawsuit, not a criminal one. He would probably only get fined, because he is technically not charging anyone for the subs, he is charging for membership(which is not illegal). If he was charging per download, then it would be a worse crime. As it stands, he'd probably be in less trouble than the fansubbers themselves if they cracked down on this. But he is the most likely starting place if a crackdown occurs since he is more visible than the other sites.
"Pudding can't fill the emptiness inside me! But it'll help."
I don't know if that true. Let's assume you founded a company like iTunes. You had a vast collection of songs, and if somebody paid you a monthly fee, he would be allowed to download for example 200 MB worth of music per month. Such a company could be viable. And I don't honestly see much difference to this pay monhtly for membership to get direct downloads of anime thing.Originally posted by: Ero-Fan
He would probably only get fined, because he is technically not charging anyone for the subs, he is charging for membership(which is not illegal). If he was charging per download, then it would be a worse crime.
If your not paying royalties to the original creators of the song/anime you are charging for, then its illegal to sell it, just like bootlegging. And since he is distributing fansubbed anime, which is illegal to begin with, if he was charging for that, it would be a worse crime. ITunes pays royalties to the owners of those songs (meaning they have permission and agreed to a price). Thats why its legal for them to distribute.
"Pudding can't fill the emptiness inside me! But it'll help."
Eh. I think you missed my point 100%. What I meant with the example was that a legit company could work like that. Thus it might be no good to say in the court that he wasn't charging for the anime but for the membership. If the membership means you have automatically access to the anime, and the reason you buy that membership is to get that access, then you are practically paying for the anime.
He'd be better off saying he didn't charge for the anime, because then the fines go up. He'd be selling and distributing an illegal product, instead of just distributing one. Two copyright violations instead of one. For it to be legal, he'd have to work out a deal with the official dvd company that produces the subbed episodes to pay royalties per file he distributes. He'd then have to charge way more than he is right now and he'd make nowhere near the money he is now. And there is no way people will wait for the dvds to catch up to where the fansubbers are right now. I think, last I saw, the dvds are up to episode 156 and charge like 23 US $ for 8 episodes. It just wouldn't work, its not like music where people basically have to wait for the cd to come out before they can hear the songs. I doubt many people would still use his site if it couldn't keep up with the anime episode that just aired the day before.
Edit: God, I hate disclaimers. Here's how this bastard gets away with this shit.
Original item in your posession, thats cute....Multimedia & Downloads
For further elaboration related to issues of liability, with respect to documents available from our server(s), neither NarutoFan.com nor its creator(s), its webhost(s), sponsor(s) and all associated parties makes any warranty, express or implied, including the warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe privately owned rights.
1. You are welcome to download media as it is made avaliable.
2. You must have in your posession the original material.
3. If you do not have the original in your posession, you must delete downloaded files within 24 hours.
4. NarutoFan.com and all associated are not responsible for your actions.
5. You are not allowed to directly link to any file, graphic, or media applicant.
6. We are not liable for any or all damages done to your system or computer.
7. NarutoFan.com is not liable for actions taken towards you.
"Pudding can't fill the emptiness inside me! But it'll help."
Oh, well. For some reason (gee, I wonder why), I'm not thinking about what's best for this fellow at all. Rather, if it goes to that, I would like him to get harsh treatment so that it would serve as a warning example for other people not to do the same.
And that disclaimer is the exact same you find at all "normal" warez sites. Perhaps that indicates the dude knows himself he's no better than those fullblood software pirates that lurk in the dark corners of the net.
Ha....those disclaimers don't mean shit.
The copyright policy of the US is so tight, that you can get fined for even having a tv in your restaurant facing the customers and playing a movie without the proper approval to do so.
But yeah, this is like napster. Mp3s were fine for the longest time, until it became easily accessible for a very large audience.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
Well, if anime downloads go the way of mp3's, I think we're gonna have to pay a visit to some of these assholes that make websites like this, because if any occurance will cause the hammer to come down, it'll most definitly be sites like this one. Only thing worse than sharing copyrighted material illegaly is making a profit off it.
"Pudding can't fill the emptiness inside me! But it'll help."
[[Now I fear that you're twisting my words. Most of my argument is 1 asking for evidence on your argument beyond your speculation and 2 is a clash of business ideologies and ethics. I don't recall once saying that the words (or somethign along the lines) "TAZMO IS NOT RIPPING PEOPLE OFF" (last line excluded of course). I did provide evidence of the the possibility that he's telling the truth about how expensive hosting such files could be. I kindly ask you not to twist my words around again.Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Actually, nobody told me that Narutofan is exploiting people. I came to that conclusion through loop holes that are rather obvious to me, as a web designer, and realized that I'm not alone in this observation. I think my first post explained my perspective on the situation well enough to support my argument. Perhaps instead of saying it's insufficient, you should back up your side with points that are worth defending. Although 90% of your posts don't seem to deny that Tazmo is lying about not profiting from his site, as he claims. So do you agree that a donation system that is used for personal gain is considered legitimate business then?
Because not only are you paying for his server but you're paying for his time. I see no reason why the man can't make a living off this.Yes, yes. We're all familiar with the concept of "paying for the distribution" rather than paying for the product. Like I said, if his budget plan is accurate and all the money actually DOES go towards servers, then I'm ok with that. But why should he pocket extra cash when the services of fansubbers doesn't?
Is Tazmo a US citizen? Even if he is, that's pretty arrogant to assume that everyone who utilizes NarutoFan is. It is also a similar mentality that I find appauling. America and America's copyright laws ARE NOT universal.I'll tell you what divine right I have to know how his business is doing: Because in the US, we have LAWS about how companies conduct business. Profiting off of a product that has been copyrighted by another company is most DEFINITELY illegal. He's bringing to the surface an entire community that for the most part operates underground and not in conflict with the dubbing companies, which will draw in too much attention from the companies as well as their target demographics. There's going to be a severe backlash, and I fear that it may extend to much farther than just Narutofan.com. If you can't see this, then you're the very type of naruto bandwagon fanboy I referenced in my previous post.
Now you make commentary on him bringing underground communities to light. Your stance appears to be that it's wrong for him to do something illegal but it's okay fansubbers to be illegal (just cause they're doing a free service eh?).
Point at hand. In the US, it is illegal either way. Free or money. If your argument was going to based on an American legal system, it's already defeated itself.
Yes there is the possible backlash for the American Anime Community but it was only a matter of time as the genre grows more and more popular in the states.
Just like once upon a time the internet was a place of anonymity that was beyond outside laws, times changes.
http://news.com.com/Create+an+...=6022491&subj=news
It is ineivitable. I stand by my early statement of preferring someone with cash to be able to defend the community over the average online person. No matter how articulate you or I may be (I apolpgize for assuming you're not really rich) there is only so much we can do legally without money.
Again I don't kow if Tazmo lives in the states and as I stated before, fan subbers that live in the states are also making a living illegally as well. There should be no discrepency between the two in the eyes of the law.Eh, never deal much with web hosting, so I didn't want to argue the price. Some people who are more knowledgeable already have, but as I already mentioned in the first post, I took into account that he was telling the truth about his server expenses. So don't know why you'd go into detail about it. As for the found a niche and making a living...once again ILLEGALLY. Take a class on intellectual property sometime. I myself am a new media whore, so I take that kind of stuff seriously.
Yes but I don't here you chastizing AONE or the fansubbing community for being the poor man's market. Again the argument is it's okay if you steal to give it away for free.Wrong. Actually a friend and I are working on a community site, so myspace would probably hit closer to home than narutofan would. I guess if you want to start rumors about me on your own, then that wouldn't be hypocritical though [img][/img] I already know tom sold it to fox. That's how he became a multi-millionare.
Here's the difference between tom and tazmo: One owned a business, the other owns a black market.
I'm saying that this war between American law and free Anime watchers is going to come to a clash and a man with money has a higher odds to find a loop hole through the court system that one without does. It is on the shoulders of the prosecutors to provide sufficient evidence of what they are doing is illegal. If Tazmo would like to continue his business(yes big if) he would not only have to defend what his site does by also what the fan subbers do as they are his source of anime.So you're saying it would be best to give tazmo all our money so he can buy lawyers to defend the anime community? Nice try, but the flaw to this obscure logic is that lawyers know they can't win a case against someone who owns the rights to the product in question. This is literally an open and shut case. The reason distributors don't press so hard on the anime community is because in general, the community is beneficial to the system. It introduces off-shore entertainment that prepares the demographic for when the entertainment is no longer off-shore. Sites like animesuki.com specifically remove series that have been licensed in America, to maximize the good relations between the community and the companies. Technically, groups like Aone and DB are already breaching the good relations between the two by subbing a series that's been licensed, but Narutofan is pouring salt on the wound...and in a HUGE way.
His site is a combination of donation and Naruto Plus members. So it's not just people giving out of the kindness of their hearts---I'd also assume that most who give money over are plus members. I mean if you're going to give money, you might as well get some other deal with it too.I'm not just ranting, I've actually been aware of narutofan's status for about a year now. Any chance he has of clearing up any misconceptions tend to prove insufficient, and more often than not results in me being even more suspicious than before. I'm not arguing that his quoted expenses are too high, read my post again. I'm saying he's not factoring a huge contributor towards the compensation of it, which is misleading. If you want to donate, be my guest, but any donation-based organization that acts in a shady manner deserves to be questioned.
Last Naruto Manga I read was 289. I'll admit I got my Inane copy from NarutoFan. If you could point out some method for me to DL Naruto from Inane directly or perhaps provide me a working bot list for their MIRC channels, I would greatly appreciate that.I'll PM you some images of inane's scanlations with the "narutofan does not have permission" pages, but they'll probably have spoilers in them, if that's a concern of yours or not.
W/E....I'm not one to pass up an argument. I'd appreciate it if you stop calling NF a business though. Businesses don't rely on donations, nor rely on infringing copyrights to make an income.[/quote]Apparently they are if you have come here to act as his representative. [img][/img]
I think I'm in love. For the time being I'm gonna have to refer to it as a business. This is a very touchy subject and I'd prefer not to go further into it but I do consider the church a business like institution. I guess due to the way I've been raised in this country, I can view anything that involves any type of transaction as a business. My training in the English field usually has me taking literal approaches to word meanings. Business - a usually commercial or mercantile activity engaged in as a means of livelihood.
Anyhow. It's been fun. Time to respond to the dozen flames I've probably gotten here. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]
And here I thought he was just seperating the argument from the person. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-sad.gif[/img]Originally posted by: DarthEnder
The winking faces are damaging you're credibility Assertn.
That too.Originally posted by: KitKat
On the contrary, I think they add to his sexiness.
q]Originally posted by: Terracosmo
And I just think that Mixairian is plain dumb. Also he has defeated the sexiness of the yellow rubber duck avatar by making it dark and brooding.
( Naruto: ) And I will never forgive him[/quote]
Where as I'll not deny the slight upon my intellect, I do take insult to the crack on my duck's sexiness. I request you rescind your comment or we will be forced to duel.
::Removing a glove.::
Ahem... For legal purposes I'll say this... Say I were to hypothetically download Naruto Manga's in one day, I can assure you that I'd be able to download over 250 chapters without a problem.Originally posted by: number331@comcast.net
I am almost positive that there is a cap on the limit that one can download through direct download on NF+.
Anyone wanna double check this? No mention of a cap is made in the information for plus so I cant say its definate.
Heh, as for this part of the argument. I've already stated. It is inevitable for "us" to be caught so to speak. It happened with the American Movie, Music, Gaming and Programming industry and it has spread quite rapidly since then.Originally posted by: Spastic_Avenger
my two cents worth........
Wow amazingly lenghty posts...... some of the logest i've seen in gotwoot but...
i agree with asert, the fansubbing community has survied so far because we've kept our heads down. if sites like NF start thinking they can rake in thousands of $ for providing direct downloads of fansubbs then pretty soon the anime companys will be sending thier lawers out with cease and desists to all the fansubbing groups..... it doesnt even matter if he is making a single dolar profit or not. if any fansubbing site starts putting out bugets with more then two
zero's in its bottom line then it will just draw unwanted attention.
of course they could never get rid of all of us, it will just mean that our community will just have to go more underground then, but that would be a shame.
if you value free fansubbing, keep it free.
if it gets licensed...buy the DVD.
Legally they can't do much about it. They're taking someone elses work without permission mostly.Originally posted by: MFauli
Question:
When the guy from NarutoFan doesnt make the subs of manga and anime by himself, WHY are the subber groups so dumb to let him make profit with THEIR work?
If i remember correctly, at the beginning of every episode an anime says "not for rental or resale purpose", so doesnt that mean, noone is allowed to make money with it?
And if the guy simply takes the subbed material without asking or giving the subbers money, then they should just start campaign against him...yeah, some action ^^
Someone who was able to put it a lot more eloquently than I, thank you.Originally posted by: Ero-Fan
Why does everyone keep bringing up his age? It'll only matter if he gets charged as a minor or an adult, if he ever gets charged for it. Which he wouldn't, since this would be a civil lawsuit, not a criminal one. He would probably only get fined, because he is technically not charging anyone for the subs, he is charging for membership(which is not illegal). If he was charging per download, then it would be a worse crime. As it stands, he'd probably be in less trouble than the fansubbers themselves if they cracked down on this. But he is the most likely starting place if a crackdown occurs since he is more visible than the other sites.
Unless I'm mistaken, this does add a level of legitimacy to his business. Especially if he purchases the original content.Originally posted by: Ero-Fan
He'd be better off saying he didn't charge for the anime, because then the fines go up. He'd be selling and distributing an illegal product, instead of just distributing one. Two copyright violations instead of one. For it to be legal, he'd have to work out a deal with the official dvd company that produces the subbed episodes to pay royalties per file he distributes. He'd then have to charge way more than he is right now and he'd make nowhere near the money he is now. And there is no way people will wait for the dvds to catch up to where the fansubbers are right now. I think, last I saw, the dvds are up to episode 156 and charge like 23 US $ for 8 episodes. It just wouldn't work, its not like music where people basically have to wait for the cd to come out before they can hear the songs. I doubt many people would still use his site if it couldn't keep up with the anime episode that just aired the day before.
Edit: God, I hate disclaimers. Here's how this bastard gets away with this shit.
Original item in your posession, thats cute....Multimedia & Downloads
For further elaboration related to issues of liability, with respect to documents available from our server(s), neither NarutoFan.com nor its creator(s), its webhost(s), sponsor(s) and all associated parties makes any warranty, express or implied, including the warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe privately owned rights.
1. You are welcome to download media as it is made avaliable.
2. You must have in your posession the original material.
3. If you do not have the original in your posession, you must delete downloaded files within 24 hours.
4. NarutoFan.com and all associated are not responsible for your actions.
5. You are not allowed to directly link to any file, graphic, or media applicant.
6. We are not liable for any or all damages done to your system or computer.
7. NarutoFan.com is not liable for actions taken towards you.
q]Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Ha....those disclaimers don't mean shit.
The copyright policy of the US is so tight, that you can get fined for even having a tv in your restaurant facing the customers and playing a movie without the proper approval to do so.
But yeah, this is like napster. Mp3s were fine for the longest time, until it became easily accessible for a very large audience.[/quote]
So it's only a threat if anime gets popular in the states.
Wow, I think that's the first time I actually had to thoroughly search a post to find a reply aimed towards me. :S
Seriously, that's one damn long post.
And the duck, while not particularly sexy, does at least look rather gothic. That's not a bad thing [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]
Me? Eloquent? What has the world come to?
Unfortunatly, that disclaimer doesn't mean shit since just about every illegal download site has one, even the ones that were brought down. And by own the original content, he means the user, not him. If he was distributing dvd rips, it would be another infraction against him, not add any legitimacy.
"Pudding can't fill the emptiness inside me! But it'll help."
Mixairian:
It's arrogant to assume that I assumed. Have you even looked at his 2006 budget list? All of his media servers reside in Chicago, Illinois.
So now you're going to pull the double standards clause on me and say that if tazmo is getting ridiculed, then aone and db should be as well?
Fine, if you want to be technical about it, then so be it. I, like the rest of us who are a part of the anime community, establish our own unwritten concept of justice within the system we operate in. Even if it wasn't officially illegal for tazmo to do what he does, it's still unfair to take advantage of the services provided by others. And don't start about his "service"...I could've made a site like his in a matter of a month on my own, and let it residually bring in the income, while you've got groups that meticulously follow anime series on a weekly basis over the course of years and not seeing a dime from it. I criticize people that burn episodes to dvds and sell them on ebay just the same. It's meant to be a free community designed to introduce the world to japanese entertainment. In this regard, it's harmless. But once you reach a level of mainstream that Narutofan is at, then that's a different matter altogether.
If you want to defend Narutofan on the grounds that my theory of his profit margin is inaccurate, then that's fine. But if you're going to question the ethics of profit from unapproved anime distribution with respect to non-profit from unapproved anime distribution, then you're wasting your time posting here, as members of the community in question aren't interested. I don't wish to go any further on that topic, anyway....I've pretty much said all that I need to say.
10/4/04 - 8/20/07
I just now thought about it, Assertn, but you write very well. I'm not meaning now the contents (which I fully agree with, though), but the technical and artistic merits of your writing. Well, this hasn't much to do with the topic of the thread; it's just that a thread like this is more likely to reveal true writing skills than a random episode discussion thread.
Yes, a company COULD offer downloads for a membership fee of anime just like there are sites that do so for music.Originally posted by: Kraco
Eh. I think you missed my point 100%. What I meant with the example was that a legit company could work like that. Thus it might be no good to say in the court that he wasn't charging for the anime but for the membership. If the membership means you have automatically access to the anime, and the reason you buy that membership is to get that access, then you are practically paying for the anime.
And could do so legally if those sites paid for the rights to do so.
No, legally speaking, giving away anime you don't have the rights to to anyone who buys a "membership" is not legal. It's like if I go to the store and steal a bunch of G.I. Joes and then "give" them away to someone who gives me 10 bucks to join my "club".
Because...you're having trouble getting mp3s for free now adays?Well, if anime downloads go the way of mp3's, I think we're gonna have to pay a visit to some of these assholes that make websites like this.
Could someone give me and probably countless others in the forum an update on what is going on in this thread like they do in the news... if you have just joined us sort of thing... honestly the length of some of these posts is bad for the health of the reader let alone the writer.
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