Narutofan

[Carnage]

The Anime was licensed at either ep. 120 or 122. Im almost positive. Anbu and Aone split up twice i think.

P.S. I was just kidding about the hentai thing, just so you know.

[Mixairian]

Due to time constraints and the number of responses I must make, I will be trimming my post lengths.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Yes, because everyone else from this forum was already quite aware of the inappropriateness of the deception itself. You forced me to go above and beyond what I thought was the necessary degree of content to support my claim.

Alright.

This statement contradicts the one below it, as you tell me here to accept tazmo's improperly advantageous position, while below you say to fight for what you believe in.

Yes it is a contradiction only if you feel his business practices are wrong. For you it would be. But tell me, why would you follow one of ideological beliefs and not another? (Rhetorical, I am only teasing.)

I know which battles are worth fighting for, and which are hopeless causes. Don't be naive to think that Narutofan will be a revolution that will shake the very foundation of copyright policies that started nearly 300 years ago. Besides, I like copyright protection.

I'm allowed moments of idealism to offset my occasional cynical attitude. As for copyright protection, this is a subject I'm torn on. What's mine is mine but if I share it with others, I would have to accept that other people will have it too... As long as folks know that it was mine originally, I don't think I'd mind too much.

Communism seemed like a good idea at one point too.

Technically speaking most ideas are good. Like thinking the underground anime community can lay so low considering all the attention it has been recieving in the states over the past few years.

You associated yourself with a crowd before I ever did.

Find me the line where I did so and quote it. I'll apologize and rescind the last comment.

Still supports my point. These people are target audiences. If they're not dedicated to going through the extra effort, then they'd more likely go to their nearest suncoast and pick up a sub/dub dvd of the latest toonami craze. Most people who aren't familiar with the undeground community don't even realize that this stuff even exists for free. They lead happy ignorant lives through the companies that dub their anime.

They're still people too. There are two approaches you can take. You can chastize people for what they don't know or you can educate them on their ignorance and fix the issue. I feel it poor tact to attack the target audience without trying to educate them first.

EDIT: Mixairian, your approach to posting confuses me. You seem like someone who's knowledgable about what you speak of, yet you say things that just don't make sense. You accuse me of derailing my topic when I am merely responding to all your arguments (it just so happens that all your arguments focus only on the last line of my original post).

That's method, confuse the hell out of you. Some of the topics we are on now are completely different from not donating to NarutoFan because Tazmo may be lying. Our discussion on target audiences, the underground anime community and such may touch slightly on Tazmo's alledged poor business practices but are very different issues/arguements.

You also claim to enter the discussion with no allegiance to either party, yet you make remarkably biased comments that translate to "It's ok for tazmo to lie because it's part of his business." Would you be ok with McDonalds starting a campaign proclaiming that a regular diet of their burgers can cure heart cancer? There's nothing wrong with that if it's for the good of their business right?

You caught me there. I'd have to make an ammendment to my stance that covers the idea of when it involves risk to the health or well being to the customer. As for my bias or non-bias. I don't care if Tazmo cheats the hell out of people, not completely, but I believe I did mention somewhere along the line I do enjoy arguing. I know you have no way to know those but every now and again on forums I play devil's advocate to get people to stand up for their points or in some cases, create better arguments.

The issue of his business practices. If all this is true, I think the guy is a dick but I don't see him destorying any lives. Not to mention, a donation is completely up to the individual.

I guess if we continue, this addes another argument and another layer. The issue of causing arm and what is classified by harm.

Side note, if McDonalds started running such addes now. I wouldn't have an issue with it. I would educate those I know and care about to the truth. Those that are out of my help spectrum will either have to have someone else inform them or end up being cleared from the gene pool.

If I seem to be getting a little aggressive, it's because I'm frustrated at the low ratio of words typed from my fingertips to the words interpreted by your optic nerves. When I find myself arguing the same point repeatedly, it becomes less fun.

Touche. I apologize if I've gotten aggresive for the past few posts. I'm in a room that is plus 100 degree's right now.

Originally posted by: Kraco
If they aren't able to invest a couple of hours to learn how to use torrents, how are they capable of investing hours to watch the anime? I would think if somebody downloads anime, he also watches it. Especially if he paid for it. And it's not like they have to learn it anew every week. Only once is enough.

Handing 20$-30$ over to someone requires no brain power. Sitting down and watching anime requires the same amount. Learning online skills does. Not everyone is at the same level.

[quoteThese are the same bloody people who brilliantly contacted a band thinking a Naruto amv was an official work... And thus consequently and eventually caused damage to the amv makers. Cases like this prove illegal activities shouldn't be made too easy. [/quote]

I'm not quite sure what you're referencing here.

You might call it elitism but it can also be called self-preservation.

Both apply.

Originally posted by: Cyberdude93
Uh...no, my stance is that NarutoFan shouldn't exist. My stance on the people is that they should be willing to learn to get something illegal

That's what said with less wording and removes all arrogance that could be attributed to you from your prior posts.

First, from your 2nd to last post:

This is a rather unfair and arrogant statement to assume that all people are, can be and have the time to become online literate.

I never said it should be made easy. Just pointed out your attitude.

Also i believe I've commentd on AssertnFailures post earlier.

I think that only the people who DO become online literate should be ABLE to get the illegal stuff. I know not everyone has time, but tough. Your farming analogy is pretty crap because food isn't illegal. If you don't want to play by the rules then you sure as hell shouldn't have it made easy for you. These people are becoming a risk to the fansub community provided there is someone willing to cater for them, in this case NarutoFan.

One thing I will give you is bringing up the issue of legality. On this note I will conscent to your posts and agree with you. But I repeat once more, your attitude is what was my initial gripe.

[quote]
Hell back on an Xbox analogy. I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that the most the non-technical community have heard about mod chips (if anything) are about people selling them with hundreds of games who get arrested. THESE people are the main reason that people who want to legally use a mod chip to run Linux have to go FURTHER underground than they would have had to.

Now think of the sellers as Narutofan, the non-technical buyers as the Narutofan Plus members, the people who want to run Linux on their Xbox as us people who use IRC and Bittorrent. The people with no knowledge will make the knowledgable people's lives harder, which is pretty unfair seeing how we're the people who according to you take time out of our lives to learn this stuff.[quote]


To be honest, the issue of anime has not been brought to court to this date. My concerns are this: I know it will eventually but when it does I want some type of legal defense.

Using the music industry as a sample, there are already many battles cropping up to fight up against their vicious crack downs on piraters Only time will tell.

Jesus Christ, stop with the whole "Waah everyone in the frickin' world will make groundless insults except me" approach, especially since neither me nor most of the people in this topic have resorted to that. How about you read someone's post(s) before deciding if they're that kind of person.

I never said I didn't insult people. I'm merely reacting to your post on the spot basis. You could be a cool person and my attitude and behavior towards you would adjust accordingly. I've not once claimed that only I am right about how I do and approach things. I only share my beliefs and methods. Some of them remain the same and others adjust. Example, I can't deny your topic issue of illegality should be difficult but I do remain firm on the stance that your sarcasm was overly elitist in manners.

Originally posted by: KitKat
As frustrating as this debate is getting for some people, I've been enjoying the quality of writing that it's brought. It is starting to get rather circular though. At some point, you might all have to agree to disagree or else this could go on forever.

I can't argue that... I won't promise not to respond to anymore arguments but I'll try to cease on the topic at hand... Thank you KitKat.

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I think this discussion is getting too advanced. I propose that we post some hentai and have a party instead, celebrating that Terra is right.
Not that I remember what this is about, but you get the point.

[Bible Black] FTW

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Perhaps we should get together and brush up on our linguistics sometime, kitkat. [img][/img]

If you're all as cunning linguists as I guess, I may request some pictures. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: God#2
Just a reminder that hentai is NOT allowed to be posted on the forum. Do not take Terra's enthusiasm as a sign that you may break the rules. If you want to share hentai, do so over PM.

GotWoot Moderator

Is siting hentai title names legal as long as no material is shown?

Originally posted by: ImitationSanen
Interesting little note about what he is doing there.

For the longest time what he was doing was completely legal for the most part due to japan's interesting and for some odd reason clumsily worded laws as far as copyrights go. Which is all well and good for this little punk until now. Due to naruto being licensed (not to mention all the other animes, but lets stay on point) the video portion of the show is now Co owned by the Licensee. The great thing about the United States is we have no such troubles as far as copyright violations work, especially when it comes to making money off of a copyright you do not own. That includes the distribution of for a profit. Remember when you were kids and rented the Disney movies on VHS and they used to have the FBI warning about display in public places and dsitribution? They aren't kidding about that.

A quick detour! As a master at arms in the U.S. Navy, One of the main things we are trained for on the legal end of training is to look for dirty money and how to identify why its dirty. Distributing licensed anime in the United States for Profit is a felony, even if the kid is in some little backwater jungle country using a telegraph machine to talk to a modem. Although with the amount being small in relation to the massive cocaine problem our country has, I doubt we will be drawing any extradition paperwork anytime soon for this little bitch, but if anime becomes as main stream as hollywood movies are, or if the Licensee is acquired by a studio with that kind of political clout, this little boy (or girl who knows?) may be facing some serious felony charges in the United States. Good, I hate when people steal the work of others in order to pad their pockets and know that they are doing it!


From reading several posts here wondering and theorizing why no one has taken legal action against the owner of Naruto fan, its quite simple. The United States has no trial in absentia laws, so a defendant has to be present to stand trail in civil and criminal court. Since the owner of the site is apparently a minor, even if evidence was mounting (and companies with large dollars usually hire law firms that will spend a few years researching every piece of dirty laundry the kid and his family have, then file 24 hours before the statue of limitations on the first offense expires). Extraditing a minor is a complicated and frowned upon process that the military and the state department (who would be fielding this one, since the kid isnt a war criminal, then my office would be handling it >_<[img][/img]. Its entirely possible they are waiting till he is of age in his country of residence in order to not seem barabric in their extradition request.


However if he lives in the United States, they are likely waiting for him to no longer be a minor, so they can not only nail him in civil court, but charge him as an adult in criminal court to. Hmm 700,000 members assuming 200K are in the US, and lets assume they only download 5 fan subs and no manga a piece. Thats 1,000,000 counts of Felony copyright infringement (altho they could never ever charge anyone with such a ludicrous amount, and they will probably settle after they make their point). This kid really needs to wise up and cut the shit before his 18th birthday.

Well said. Why is it I'm fond of the writing styles of most folks that come from the military? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
wait.......yeah.....im confused now......
I remember the series was licensed at some big event....I thought it was Naruto vs Kiba.....
But TW translated up to the 60s, so it couldn't have been there I guess.....

Was it when Aone and ANBU split up for a short period of time during the tsunade fight? That doesn't seem right, cause then they joined up again shortly after.

Edit: Apparently it was licensed last Feb. So I was probably thinking of the Kiba vs Sakon fight?
No wait.....actually I think therea was a false rumor of it being licensed during the Naruto/Kiba fight. Then Animesuki took it down based on that rumor, but put it back up a week later....and people were freaking out.

Ehh....I'll stop posting now

Kiba versus Sakon sounds about right.

[darkmetal505]

anbu left at episode 122 I think which was between the kiba/sakon, shikamaru/tayua, and naruto/kimimaro fights

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Mixairian
Find me the line where I did so and quote it. I'll apologize and rescind the last comment.

The best argument you have provided is your fear for the anime community. I find this as a viable risk because withou NarutoFan, I'd never have been able to download the manga. I wouldn't even know where to look. On top of this, his site is one of the first sites I go to get my Naruto news. I'm not the only person that his site has helped for free. It would be ridiculous to think that I would be in the minority considering how popular and well his site is doing.

Here you associate yourself with the audience that relies on Narutofan, while part of my argument was that the people that didn't have other means to obtain naruto media were causing the problems with offsetting the target demographic.

They're still people too. There are two approaches you can take. You can chastize people for what they don't know or you can educate them on their ignorance and fix the issue. I feel it poor tact to attack the target audience without trying to educate them first.

Are you saying....teach them how to use IRC/bittorrent, or teach them the value of product support? If a person that happily goes to suncoast every week to purchase the latest anime dvd is educated about a method of obtaining anime for free, then that would be bad for business. I say let the ignorant remain ignorant. Nobody's loss.

I'll also take this time to point out my own personal ideals when it comes to illegally obtaining movies/shows/games/etc. I believe in this policy:
If you'd rather not watch/play it at all than to pay for its market value, then downloading it is nobody's loss.
If the only means for me to watch Naruto was to buy the dvds, then I wouldn't watch Naruto. Not because I don't like it, but I refuse to spend $30x(170/4) on it. Trigun I liked, and bought all the dvds. Most movies I own are legitimate. All my xbox games are downloaded (I wouldn't even own an xbox at all if it wasn't for the mod capability). However, I cannot count on others to follow the same line of rationale.

You caught me there. I'd have to make an ammendment to my stance that covers the idea of when it involves risk to the health or well being to the customer. As for my bias or non-bias. I don't care if Tazmo cheats the hell out of people, not completely, but I believe I did mention somewhere along the line I do enjoy arguing. I know you have no way to know those but every now and again on forums I play devil's advocate to get people to stand up for their points or in some cases, create better arguments.

The issue of his business practices. If all this is true, I think the guy is a dick but I don't see him destorying any lives. Not to mention, a donation is completely up to the individual.

So if the "make-a-wish" foundation jar at the local 7-11 went towards the cashier's binge drinking habits instead of to misfortunate children, then you'd be ok with that, because it's not a health risk?

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: Kraco
These are the same bloody people who brilliantly contacted a band thinking a Naruto amv was an official work... And thus consequently and eventually caused damage to the amv makers. Cases like this prove illegal activities shouldn't be made too easy.

Originally posted by: Mixairian
I'm not quite sure what you're referencing here.

What I was referring to is this (taken from animemusicvideos.org forums):

Originally posted on: animemusicvideos.org forums
Here is how all of this relates to us: A fan was confused about some Evanescence AMVs found on this site. For some reason, the fan decided to attempt to contact Evanescence and ask if the band had created the videos. Whoever received the message from the fan placed the question on the desk of the bands lawyer so that they could best answer the fans question. The lawyer then asked the bands licensing department if our site had a license to offer Evanescence AMVs. Since the answer was no and the band would like to maintain the enforceability of the copyright on their songs, the lawyer had no choice but to take some kind of action.

This is what happens when people aren't forced to think even a little bit before they are provided services. Everybody is able to think that much, if required. You said some things require no brain power. I'm saying they should. Well, since nothing has yet happened to anime due to Narutofan, I suppose it could be argued this amv comparison is not relevant at all here. Only time will tell the truth.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Miz is in a pissy mood because he;s sitting in the heat. Turn the goddamn air on!

[Sapphire]

Anyone seen this convo ? It kinda reinforces what assertn says.

http://www.stoptazmo.com/viewtopic.php?t=9199

[Assertn]

I DID mention that tazmo doesn't reply to my messages, the forums delete any topics I make regarding the budget, and that the comments page for that announcement on his site is conveniently missing, right?

[Knives122]

One question I need to ask you assertn, were you the guy who started a thread about the budget at narutofan and then got banned for it?

[Kraco]

Things like that make it sound like he's just cashing in for as long as he possibly can before problems grow insurmountable. Like corrupt Third World leaders who keep sweeping bad publicity under the carpet whilst robbing the nation's treasury - until revolution sweeps the carpet from under their feet.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Knives122
One question I need to ask you assertn, were you the guy who started a thread about the budget at narutofan and then got banned for it?

nope. I have a horrible rating at NF, but never been banned.

Instead of directly attacking the budget plan, I decided to ask a seemingly innocent question like "how many plus members does NF have?"

[Knives122]

So I'm guessing you didn't get a reply based on the post you made? (the one below sapphires)

[Terracosmo]

In the midst of all this, I can't help being a bit jealous (weird huh?). I mean, 30.000+ USD for writing nonsense every tuesday is not that bad.



I want to kill him.

[Carnage]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
In the midst of all this, I can't help being a bit jealous (weird huh?). I mean, 30.000+ USD for writing nonsense every tuesday is not that bad.



I want to kill him.

On the contrary, we should learn from his example and take advantage of idiots who get up every tuesday just to see that he posted there is nothing new.lol[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] One day I'm going to create a site like that!

[Sapphire]

Originally posted by: Knives122
So I'm guessing you didn't get a reply based on the post you made? (the one below sapphires)

Wasn't the post he made regarding with number of Plus members?
--
Are you guys talking about forums, (i have never seen any forums), or the crappy comment section?

[ImitationSanen]

"Well said. Why is it I'm fond of the writing styles of most folks that come from the military?"

Because we have a requirement when we right anything down, it has to contain actual facts, and be as short as possible to save transmission bandwidth and space.
Which usually means you get 80 percent facts, 15 percent operater interpretation of the facts and 5 percent of operater filler bullshit (humor ect) to try to keep the person reading it from falling into a catatonic state. We do have a rather unique sense of humor though, Im glad to see someone can appreciate its weirdness.

You know sooner or later im going to finish my law degree, if someone doesnt take him to court by the time I finish, I may do it on behalf of the studios. Hey if he can get rich off of Naruto by being a scumbag that gives me the right to piss in his Kool-aid right?

[Knives122]

Originally posted by: Sapphire

Originally posted by: Knives122
So I'm guessing you didn't get a reply based on the post you made? (the one below sapphires)

Wasn't the post he made regarding with number of Plus members?
--
Are you guys talking about forums, (i have never seen any forums), or the crappy comment section?

What I meant was that I thought he was actually messaging(email or whatever) the guy and asking him about the whole "budget ploy"

[Assertn]

I messaged Tazmo directly, asking if his budget includes plus member servers, and if so, then he should factor in how much is made a year from plus members. He never responded.

I asked in the forums how many plus members there are, and the only response I got was "nobody knows for sure," and then my topic was promptly trashed.

[Aramis]

making a wad of cash for sharing pirates, is, like, SUPER CHEAP.
3.5$ for just about all the anime you'll ever want is not a bad deal. there's similiar deals all over the web. everyone must know Fileplanet etc.
but for PIRATES that he downloads from other people's FREE sources, it's bullshit.
KILL!

[Kraco]

Hmm... Doesn't he need to pay taxes with a turnover that big? If he should, I wonder if he does...