Religious cartoon causes outrage in the muslim world

[DO]

Originally posted by: el_boss
@DragonOutlaw: I don't know if you are moderator, I'm guessing that you are since you never get warned whatever you do. Still, I find it odd that you're getting away with acting like this.

lol

Its because most of all the mods are white and since im white I get away with it.


@Jadugar
I don't get banned we just didn't want you to keep complaining like a little bitch.

[Kraco]

Every forum needs a bad example, a permanent troublemaker. A statistical portion of mods are people who absolutely need something to moderate. If things are going too smoothly, they will start to pick at ever smaller and smaller things. And so when there's a really gross person like DragonOutlaw, who walks two miles beyond the limits of good conduct, it kind of resets the limits to where they should be in the minds of the overzealous mods. Even if the person's actions didn't get moderated.

[DO]

Originally posted by: Kraco
Every forum needs a bad example, a permanent troublemaker. A statistical portion of mods are people who absolutely need something to moderate. If things are going too smoothly, they will start to pick at ever smaller and smaller things. And so when there's a really gross person like DragonOutlaw, who walks two miles beyond the limits of good conduct, it kind of resets the limits to where they should be in the minds of the overzealous mods. Even if the person's actions didn't get moderated.

Don't get mad because you don't have status. your just a nobody [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

You get out of a temp ban and go right back to flaming? Your vacation has just been extended.

GotWoot Moderator

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: DragonOutlaw
lol

Its because most of all the mods are white and since im white I get away with it.

So what you're saying now is that the white mods treat other white people better. Basically you're saying that most of the mods are racist. That's a pretty strong statement.

Though there is room for misinterpretation, since in its current state this argument is fundamentally ill-formed and makes little sense. You fail to show a connection between white mods and the fact that you being white lets you "get away with it".

This is what you say now:
1) Most mods are white
2) I am white
------------------------
3) I get away with whatever I do

You see, the conclusion doesn't follow naturally from the premises, which is why your argument is ill-formed.

That which is lacking from the argument as it is now is a premise that draws the aforementioned connection. I am assuming that you are trying to say something like "white mods let white people get away with whatever they do" or "white mods let white people do what they want". If this wasn't what you were trying to say, the entire argument would become obsolete.

This is the proper form:
1) Most mods are white
2) White mods let white people get away with whatever they do
3) I am white
-------------------------
4) I get away with whatever I do

See how much better it got?

Next comes the evaluation of your argument. Since I really can't prove any of your statements nor deny them. My only choice is to take your word for it and acknowledge the fact that most of the mods are racist.

[DO]

You can discuss all this *SHOCKING* info on the IRC channel

irc.gotwoot.net
#gotwoot

[masamuneehs]

heh, DO might stir up trouble, but he does a shit ton more for Gotwoot than alot of people. I suppose he's entitled to raising hell. After all, the man somehow manages to maintain a negative post count.

And let us not forget, this incredible thread

nah seriously, just about everything to do with IRC is to his credit. (which someone banned me from, btw...)

but, um, what thread was this? Yes, that's right:

Back on topic-
this really did a good job of summing up lots of the viewpoints
BBC Interviews with Beirut Citizens on Embassy Torching

Danes, Swedes, evacuate citizens from Syria

Norway Post - Condemns attacks on Embassy in Damascus

And some Muslims wonder why their strong faith draws criticism and fear from others... When people start defending their religion and morals through threatening and attacking others they've overstepped their boundaries. Such reactions are obviously only going to bring about even worse repurcussions and criticism from the rest of the world. Peaceful protest? Fine. Boycott? Harsh, but effective. Burning an embassy? Flashy, but I don't think its doing much good in proving their point.

Stop going off topic guys. As DragonOutlaw has stated, take it to IRC.

Gotwoot Moderator.

[FrogKing]

^Nice reaction. Draw a cartoon...displace hundreds of families from their homes, ouch.
@Jad: Could you pm me the cartoons? I, too, would like to see what all the fuss is about.
Like the abortion topic:
Breaking out the 10' poll <---------- (for now)

[Mae]

I dislike people insulting others for no good reason, but I dislike political correctness even more, so I'm with the newspapers in this one.

Oh, and there IS a big difference between political discussions in a newspaper or other public sphere and a private conversation between individuals on a moderated forum. So DragonOutlaw, we get your point about intentionally insulting speech, it doesn't really apply here in the same way it does for the newpaper because the context is different, enough already.

[Jadugar]

Originally posted by: Xollence
Doesn't their religion teach against using violence? I think the way they're protesting is even more offensive to their faith than the stupid cartoons.

Nobody's religion preeches to mess with other religions. Its the people who create these kind of situations. The mis-interpretation of their faith/religion causes trouble.




@ Terracosmo :

I sure would like to get my hand on those <u>"get over it"</u> pills that you have. You need you share their formula/recipe with us or produce them on a mass scale so every body can benefit from it. You can make a shit load of money from them.[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]



@ KitKat :

I couldnt give a better exmaple than the one you mentioned.

Originally posted by: The Heretic Azazel
What i want to know is, if their faith is so strong, why does EVERY LITTLE THING seem to threaten it?

I bet you havent seen the cartoons or you have a very little undersatnding of what is going on.
One of the cartoons implys that their Prophet is source of all terrorism. Which is saying all muslims are terrorist.

I woudnt call that little.

Originally posted by: Some 10 year old with a massive comlex and who only knows a few words like suck my dick and I own you. Not not mention his famous phrase : Come to IRC

@Jadugar
I don't get banned we just didn't want you to keep complaining like a little bitch.

I figured that out the first time round when you started flamimg me and the other moderator(Upholder of Gotwoot laws) completely ignored your first post and the seond one. He blamed it on the <u>style</u> of other moderators.

Just because you have a small........ and your constant need of attention deosnt mean that I am complaining. You just need to pick on someone every once in a while just to prove your existance.

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
And some Muslims wonder why their strong faith draws criticism and fear from others... When people start defending their religion and morals through threatening and attacking others they've overstepped their boundaries. Such reactions are obviously only going to bring about even worse repurcussions and criticism from the rest of the world. Peaceful protest? Fine. Boycott? Harsh, but effective. Burning an embassy? Flashy, but I don't think its doing much good in proving their point.

If someone is doing something bad it doesnt mean their religion is bad or that their religion allows it. It simply means that that person is drawing wrong conclusions of its faith and mis-representing it. His actions are his alone not his religions.The others should understand that basic difference.



I need a fucking drink after this post.

Jadugar, what don't you understand about "don't go off topic". If you really want to argue so much, use PM's or go to irc and discuss it there.

I'll see you in a few days.

Gotwoot Moderator

[Terracosmo]

@Jadugar:

I'd gladly share them, but unfortunately I have to eat all of them myself to be able to endure my painful personal life!

[Kraco]

I think there are lots of people over there who have no better things to do than march in the streets burning flags and storming embassies. It's like people in western countries go to bars with friends to spend some time, or to an ice-hockey match. They like waving their AK-47s in the air and shout with their buddies. If they didn't like that, then every other news broadcast from that area wouldn't contain hundreds of people doing that. I mean, you rarely see massive and violent weekly demonstrations in western countries. They would be big news here.

Just another cultural difference.

[el_boss]

It seems like people keep forgetting one piece (lol "one piece") of fact. In islam it isn't allowed to depict the prophet in any way. So just making an image of him to begin with would have been bad, but putting him in the situations that they did was obviously too much. And Mae I really can't see how this has anything to do with political correctness. Political correctness is when you are afraid to say "black" in front of a black person. This more on scale of a newspaper having articles about why their country would be better of if all [insert minority here] were dead. I'm not saying it's as bad, but you get what I mean, right?

@Kraco: But oddly enough USA has the highest amount of people killed by guns. And probably the highest guns per capita as well.

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: el_boss
@Kraco: But oddly enough USA has the highest amount of people killed by guns. And probably the highest guns per capita as well.

But still hundreds of those people don't regularly march in the middle of cities shooting in the air and waving those guns.

I just meant that possibly those demonstrations look like a bigger deal to us than to those being involved. I bet most of those people have been in many, many demonstrations earlier, during their life. They are like pro demonstrators.

One other thing is that it wasn't an Islamic agency that published the picture. More like a Christian, most likely, being located in Denmark. In Christianity nothing prevents you from depicting anybody you want. I don't know why those Muslisms would think others should follow their rules. However, had I been responsible, I wouldn't have published those pictures. Not because I would have thought it ethically wrong but because I'd have known it would backlash and cause economic and other damage.

[Splash!]

i really don't get what jadugar did that was so off topic apart from his little comment to DragonOutlaw, anyways:

One other thing is that it wasn't an Islamic agency that published the picture. More like a Christian, most likely, being located in Denmark. In Christianity nothing prevents you from depicting anybody you want. I don't know why those Muslisms would think others should follow their rules

@ Kraco: Do you hear yourself??Why shouldn't their rules be followed if there is something that pertains to their religion.
Let's get this clear, making fun of a religious matter was wrong, representing the prophet as a terrorist was wrong, the violence that followed this event was ENTIRELY wrong!!!!!
One simple apology could have stopped all of this! Why couldn't that simple apology be made. Seems like some people are more stuck on the idea of "Get Over It" and "Freedom of Speech" than actually understanding the reprecussions of certain things. What was the problem in making a simple apology?Noone would have been upset and everything would have been, granted the Danish government would have to swallow its their pride a little.

[DB_Hunter]

Just to leave the discussion of whether the cartoons should have been published or not, I think that the future of this story is very muddled. People everywhere seem to be saying that this protest is now taking a life of its own. It may well be possible for this cartoon incident to spark of something bigger, albeit unrelated in the Muslim world.

I think it is very interesting that Denmark and Norway are blaming Syrian government for the burning of their diplomatic missions there. Without trying to sound biased I going to ignore the allegations of the United States, since they always seem to have a beef with Syria or some other Muslim country for their own personal interests.

I think the Danes and Norwegians have raised a valid point Syria is a police state and is used to excerising complete control over its people, even if fear is the tool used in doing so. They then say that it is a deliberate action on the part of Syria to allow the burning of the embassies.

What Denmark and Norway need to do is understand their own assertion more deeply. Yes, Syria is a police state run by an idiotic, cowardly tyrant who controls his country with fear. However, due to this the people in the country are living miserable lives. Since this cartoon row has come along, the people of Syria have become very heated. Note that the idea of demonstrantions against anything is unheard of in the Middle East if it is not in the favour of whatever regieme we are talking about. So for the people to demonstrate, they must have a major problem to start with. The people know this, and the Syrian leadership knows this.

So what has happened is is that the Muslims in Syria, consumed by anger, have done the actions they have done i.e. the burning of the building. This anger was so great that if the oppresive Syrian government tried to stop it they would have been blown away themselves in the process. One must remember that the governments in the Middle East and the wider Muslim world are despised by the native population, and consequently due to the many decades of not serving the people these oppresive rulers now find themselves in a very delicate and dangerous situation.

Look at the reaction of the Syrian government, it apologised there and then to both Denmark and Norway. The reason why it didn't stop the burning is because it could not, for it would have put itself in danger.

As for how this row is going to defuse, I must admit I can't see a way out of this yet. Either the protestors run of steam, which people are saying is not likely, infact momentum is growing, or the newspapers apologise, which doesn't look likely right now either. From a purely political and academic point of view, things look as though they are going to get very interesting. From a practical point of view, things may get much more ugly before we see light at the end of the tunnel.

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: splash
@ Kraco: Do you hear yourself??Why shouldn't their rules be followed if there is something that pertains to their religion.
Let's get this clear, making fun of a religious matter was wrong, representing the prophet as a terrorist was wrong, the violence that followed this event was ENTIRELY wrong!!!!!

It doesn't matter if it's right or wrong or what those people think or believe. What matters is what they do. The people in high positions shouldn't be children. A child needs concrete rules of what is right or wrong, because he/she can't make the decision himself/herself. The editor of a big newspaper shouldn't have this problem. Nor a Prime minister of a fricking democratic country. It's irrelevant what they think inside their heads as long as they do the correct things.

I just typed down first what I thought, then what I would have done, if it had been up to me. There was a distinct difference between those two, yet you only quoted the first part of my text, that is, the part describing what I thought. However, if I hadn't written that, you would have had no knowledge of my true opinions. If Jyllands-Posten hadn't published those cartoons because they are risky , it wouldn't have changed the fact the editor would have liked to publish them, but didn't want to risk it. Yet you would have never known that, and thought it's a respectable paper.

Interestingly enough the problem here is that some people can't be duplicitous, and instead do exactly what they want to do, like children. The editor of Jyllands-Posten (and many other newspapers since then), the idiot Prime minister of Denmark. Who cares if they thought all muslims are terrorists if they never opened they mouths?

[Xollence]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/200...mi_ea/prophet_drawings

At this point I don't think it matters whether the newspaper was wrong or not. We all know they should've used better judgement, but I think it's more important on how to stop these asses from destroying anymore European buildings and targeting people. I think the leadership should've at least tried to calm things down in the beginning but I'm against them being pressured into apologizing to these fanatics. What is it exactly that these ignorant people want? I doubt they just want an apology from the Danish government.

[Kraco]

Damn it's escalating. It's not like the key people among the demonstrators wanted really anything. As that news article suggested, there are pro demonstrators and firebrands among the masses who just want riots and torching of building. It doesn't matter what they are fighting for as long as they have something to fight for.

I doubt the Jyllands-Posten's editor can be accused of breaking any laws, but he should be labeled officially stupid by the Queen of Denmark. Since this all started because they published the cartoon and has cost so much to the Danes, the evidence would be overpowering enough.

[ChiaCheese]

Originally posted by: KitKat
ChiaCheese, I don't know if your analogy really represents the situation very well. I think it's a lot more personal than just happening to see something you classify as offensive. Maybe a better analogy would be this: Imagine you have a wife, a woman who you love more than anything else in the world, that you would sacrifice anything for, and she loves you just as deeply. Now imagine that a national newspaper prints comics depicting your wife totally naked, whoring it up and banging a number of other guys. You know that thousands of people across the country, and even internationally, are looking at these comics. How many of you would have the restraint to contact the head of the newspaper asking for a meeting to discuss your concerns, rather than driving over there and beating the living crap out of the guy who drew the comics? If it's a random person, you probably wouldn't care (you'd probably even encourage such comics) but once it involves someone close to you, it's not funny anymore.

i understand that and i was trying to make the same point, but with real life examples. but ya, your example is much clearer.

[KitKat]

This situation is definitely getting way out of hand. I was reading on the news yesterday about more burnings of buildings and people being driven out of countries. This has moved into the realm of violence for the sake of violence. It's the mob mentality where people stop being individuals and thinking rationally and move to being part of a giant force that is easily manipulated and bent on destruction. I have no idea what needs to be done to remedy this situation, but something better be done soon, or else it's just going to get a whole lot worse.