Religious cartoon causes outrage in the muslim world

[Assassin]

intresting, intresting.

I'd just like to point out something that everyone seems to be missing. As el_boss has already stated, it wasn't the cartoons that caused all the outrage. After the cartoons were published, 15 arab nations wrote a letter to the danish prime minister asking to meet with him in order to discuss a solution to this problem.

It was only when he blatantly refused this invitation that tehse nations got mad and the conflict escalated to this point. So to all of those people saying "its just a joke, dont be a pussy", its not the joke thats making muslims so mad, its the fact that there was an offer for a peaceful solution, and it was refused outright. And as a result, muslims are once again the bad guys making death threats and burnign flags.

Originally posted by: God#2
even if it was to spite the muslims, it wasnt like a letter saying " I DECLARE WAR ON THE MUSLIMS!" Its still freedom of speech. Fucking extremists.

I dont quite understand what you're trying to say here. You cant chalk everything up to freedom of speech. Even freedom must have limitations, otherwise its nothing more then anarchy. Even though the danish newspaper has the right to freedom of speech and expression, they also have a responsibility to thier readers. And as far as being extremists, i dont see how expressing thier outrage and boycotting danish products are in anyway extremism or fundamentalism.


Now, im a muslim, and my personal view on this is that the editor of the danish newspaper should have known better. I think Saudia arabia and Libya pulling out thier ambassadors and closing thier embassies was a good move. It was a strong nonviolent way to show thier disapproval.

However, i dont agree with the boycott of the swedish/danish company. Although it does send a strong message, in the end its hurting the wrong people. The workers who lose thier jobs due to this are just gettign caught in the crossfire, and its not fair that they suffer for the mistakes of thier prime minister. Regardless, that is the case in any boycott, and everyone has thier own opinion on the subject.

As for the flag burning and death threats, thats just plain idiocy. Im rather ashamed to see muslims resort to such acts while claiming to defend islam. Anyone who has bothered studying islam, or the life of the prophet muhammed would know that islam teaches you to simply walk away in such situations, and that the prophet himself went through much abuse in his life, and never once did he choose to retaliate.

All in all, the paper did offer an apology, but the prime minster still doesnt seem to understand why this is such a big issue as he still defends the freedom of press.

[KitKat]

To those of you who advocate that people should learn to lighten up and take a joke, I want to make an important distinction here. There is a huge difference between religion and faith. There are a lot of people who classify themselves as belonging to a religion. It's kinda like belonging to a club. They do it for different reasons, but they're not too hung up on the details and they don't think that their membership of their own little religious club should really affect other people. I'd say a lot of people in North America and Europe are like this. Then we have the people who can be classified as not just being in a religion, but having faith. To these people, religion is not just something that you do, it's the fundamental truths of the world. It dictates their actions, it affects every aspect of their lives. When you insult someone's religion, no big deal. When you insult someone's faith, you insult the very core of who they are. I don't know if any of you believe in anything so strongly to be able to understand this. But basically, this is why we are seeing this extreme reaction. These people probably wouldn't get this upset about an insult to their nationality or culture, but they will not stand by and let Allah and their holy prophet be insulted.

As for freedom of speech, as has been pointed out before, this is a very blurred line. Is sexual harrassment freedom of speech? Generally, in our society we've come to the conclusion that freedom of speech applies only so far as it is not harming another person. To see that this event has sparked such serious and debilitating consequences for the parties involved, and on a nation-wide scale no less, sets off some warning flags in my mind that these cartoons crossed the boundary from being expressions of opinion to being instruments of harm.

[Jadugar]

I will give you a practical example of "freedom of speech of gotwoot" forum.

I just posted two line jokes in my last post. They werent even remotly offensive but they were removed. Why? because one of the gotwoot moderators thought that if he let this continue someone elsemight post something that crosses the line. So why am I being punished for it. If someone else decides to post something that is offensive then that is their crime not mine.

You want a discussion then read my earlier post in this thread. I am perfectly capable of a discussion without taking it far. I dont have the control over all the jerks on gotwoot. If someone decides to post something he can do so without my permission. Implying that something I did will lead someone is nonsense.

Give me back my freedom of speech. I want an apology. I bet its one of the moderators who thinks that those cartoons were just a joke.

I do believe gotwoot moderators have seperate accounts which they can use to log in and post. So come out.

I see a ban comimg.

[Gotwoot Moderator]

Jadugar, I think you are still under the misconception that Gotwoot is a democracy. This is a private forum, and the admins and mods are responsible for what we will allow here and what we will not. Our goal is to keep this a place where people can come and have fun discussing various topics. We have to have certain rules in place to keep order. We do take the concerns of our members very seriously, but in the end everyone must respect the decisions that are made whether you agree with them or not. If you read the rules, most of them are restrictions on what you may or may not say. There is no freedom of speech here. If you are not happy with the decisions are made, you always have the freedom to leave.

[DO]

Originally posted by: Jadugar
I will give you a practical example of "freedom of speech of gotwoot" forum.

I just posted two line jokes in my last post. They werent even remotly offensive but they were removed. Why? because one of the gotwoot moderators thought that if he let this continue someone elsemight post something that crosses the line. So why am I being punished for it. If someone else decides to post something that is offensive then that is their crime not mine.

You want a discussion then read my earlier post in this thread. I am perfectly capable of a discussion without taking it far. I dont have the control over all the jerks on gotwoot. If someone decides to post something he can do so without my permission. Implying that something I did will lead someone is nonsense.

Give me back my freedom of speech. I want an apology. I bet its one of the moderators who thinks that those cartoons were just a joke.

I do believe gotwoot moderators have seperate accounts which they can use to log in and post. So come out.

I see a ban comimg.

lol stfu you fucking faggot stop complaining and start sucking my dick.

[Jadugar]

Originally posted by: Gotwoot Moderator
Jadugar, I think you are still under the misconception that Gotwoot is a democracy. This is a private forum, and the admins and mods are responsible for what we will allow here and what we will not. Our goal is to keep this a place where people can come and have fun discussing various topics. We have to have certain rules in place to keep order. We do take the concerns of our members very seriously, but in the end everyone must respect the decisions that are made whether you agree with them or not. If you read the rules, most of them are restrictions on what you may or may not say. There is no freedom of speech here. If you are not happy with the decisions are made, you always have the freedom to leave.

Ok understood, then what about DragonOutlaw's post.
You dont have a democracy but you do have some rules, right. I want to see them being enforced.

I have no problem shutting him up but lets see if you do something do about it.

Originally posted by: DragonOutlaw
lol stfu you fucking faggot stop complaining and start sucking my dick.

You are asking me to suck your dick and you call me a faggot [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

Dude if you are having problems with finding someone then try this.

[Turkish-S]

Originally posted by: KitKat
There are a lot of people who classify themselves as belonging to a religion. It's kinda like belonging to a club. They do it for different reasons, but they're not too hung up on the details and they don't think that their membership of their own little religious club should really affect other people. I'd say a lot of people in North America and Europe are like this.

this is why the muslim world made a big deal of it. (i'm gonna try to make myself clear plz don't laugh/bash me if i can't.) i think that 90 % of your grandma's and grandpa's are religious. 40/50 % of your parrents are religious. but for the young population in the west it's 5/10 %.. This is what the muslim world wants to prevent...


damn i have to go to school now i will edit my post later on the day.

[Gotwoot Moderator]

Originally posted by: Jadugar

Ok understood, then what about DragonOutlaw's post.
You dont have a democracy but you do have some rules, right. I want to see them being enforced.

I have no problem shutting him up but lets see if you do something do about it.

10. No racism: This rule isn't difficult to follow.

You still dont get it do you? You broke the rules by posting those jokes. Granted they were not a huge insult or anything, but that doesn't change the fact that they fall under the category of discrimination. If we let you do it, then what right do we have to stop others when THEY post racist/religious jokes. You are not being punished for what others do, you are being punished for something you did.

Despite what you may think, we do not believe that your actions will lead others to do the same. You are not that influential, so get over yourself.

[masamuneehs]

Great... I go and say I agree with Jadugar and he starts acting like a complete... ah, well, guess it ain't my place to flame others, but I do believe alot of the stuff he posted was both uncalled for and against the rules here... Since we're in an online forum and there are very few incentives to be constructive members here I actually understand the need for the moderator structure.

"Where incentive to preserve order and maintain peaceful relations cannot be provided, fear will be the best way to keep the people in line." Hobbes wrote something along those lines, and he was damn right...

Protestors Storm Danish Embasss=y

That occurred in Indonesia, just to show the scope of how big this ordeal is. Honestly, from what little I've heard on this incident, it was carried out very peacefully, and I fully support it if that is the case.

One person's big mouth might have the right to flap on and on, but don't be surprised when someone else's fist is used to silence it. And in this case there are millions and millions who will seek to silence this one mouth, and don't be surprised if its done in more violent ways than this protest...

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: DB_Hunter
As for boycott of Danish goods, so what? You expect a people to be insulted and take it lying down? The Western world can go about imposing sanctions on whoever it damn well pleases so why can't others do the same? Sure, we can discuss the merits of an economic boycott as an effective tool to discharge one's displeasure, but that's another thing.

I think you understood my post 180 degrees backwards. What I meant is that the Danish prime miniter is an idiot (no offence to any Danes here). All he had to do was, even after at first refusing to see the envoy, to make a strong apology and perhaps try to see anew the ambassadors. But instead, he just defends his stance that's nothing more than his own pride. I sure hope that dolt loses in the next election... Well, to speak the truth I don't really care since my home country isn't affected at all.

Basically the Danish Prime minister had to choose whether to help Jyllands-Posten, which didn't lose or win anything, or whether to help export companies, which are losing millions and millions. I suppose he got his campaign funding from the newspaper, since he chose Jyllands-Posten. Freedom of expression is all nice, but succesful business that employs people is nice as well. Too bad the Danish prime minister forgot that.

[Terracosmo]

You people say that what got the ball rolling was that the danish prime minister refused to meet up with the offended parties.
Well my original point was that they were taking it too seriously by even wanting to meet the prime minister to begin with.

I mean god, what a funny discussion that would be.

"Yeah we have 15 nations on the line who want to have a big meeting regarding a one-shot comic". Bah.

Edit: I still agree that the prime minister is a fucking idiot for not solving the situation at this point however, even though I can probably relate to the feelings of "what the hell is the problem?" that he must be feeling. Being prime minister means huge responsibility, and it amuses me how he can't even step up and make an apology for this even though he might not understand why.

[Ero-Fan]

Originally posted by: KitKat
As for freedom of speech, as has been pointed out before, this is a very blurred line. Is sexual harrassment freedom of speech? Generally, in our society we've come to the conclusion that freedom of speech applies only so far as it is not harming another person. To see that this event has sparked such serious and debilitating consequences for the parties involved, and on a nation-wide scale no less, sets off some warning flags in my mind that these cartoons crossed the boundary from being expressions of opinion to being instruments of harm.

This comic strip is very different from sexual harrassment in one very important way. When you sexually harrass someone, they pretty much have to hear you saying it. When it comes to printed material, no one is forcing you to read the article or buy the newspaper. If this were on a billboard, that would be a different story; you'd then have a good reason to be upset. You don't like what they print? Then don't buy or read it. Besides, this is freedom of the press, not freedom of speech. There are a lot less restrictions on printed material then what can be said in, say, an office environment or even in public.
Edit: Oh, yeah, and my co-worker said he saw the comic, and he didn't care. His religion comes first, and quite frankly, he doesn't care what other people think of him and his faith.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
You people say that what got the ball rolling was that the danish prime minister refused to meet up with the offended parties.
Well my original point was that they were taking it too seriously by even wanting to meet the prime minister to begin with.

Well it isn't really up to the danish prime-minister to decide how offended the muslim community should have gotten. And maybe they didn't take it so serious to begin with, but the fact that he refused to discuss the subject shows that he must have fealt "guilty" on some level and didn't want to confront those people. Very similiar to how a child would have handeled the situation. In my eyes it was a very disrespectful act.

The worst thing about this event is the way the media has handeled it and how the general public percieve it. Yet again muslims have been painted as extremist warmongers that just want jihad all over the place.

[Ero-Fan]

Originally posted by: el_boss
The worst thing about this event is the way the media has handeled it and how the general public percieve it. Yet again muslims have been painted as extremist warmongers that just want jihad all over the place.

If a person has any kind of intelligence at all, they would know its just a small minority among muslims that are the extremist warmongers. Unfortunatly, they also are the most visible due to their actions.

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: Ero-Fan

Originally posted by: el_boss
The worst thing about this event is the way the media has handeled it and how the general public percieve it. Yet again muslims have been painted as extremist warmongers that just want jihad all over the place.

If a person has any kind of intelligence at all, they would know its just a small minority among muslims that are the extremist warmongers. Unfortunatly, they also are the most visible due to their actions.

Exactly. Just like only a small minority among Danes are the extremist idiots. Unfortunately, one of the idiots also is the most visible due to being their prime minister.

[DO]

Originally posted by: DragonOutlaw
lol stfu you fucking faggot stop complaining and start sucking my dick.

You are asking me to suck your dick and you call me a faggot [img][/img]

Dude if you are having problems with finding someone then try this.[/quote]


lol you noob whore
your moms a total fatass

[el_boss]

@DragonOutlaw: I don't know if you are moderator, I'm guessing that you are since you never get warned whatever you do. Still, I find it odd that you're getting away with acting like this.

[Jadugar]

Originally posted by: Gotwoot Moderator
Despite what you may think, we do not believe that your actions will lead others to do the same. You are not that influential, so get over yourself.

When did I amply that I am so influential that others will follow my lead.

What are you talking about me not understading the rules. I said : OK, I understood. But you completely dodged my other question. I wanted you to do something about the remraks made by DragonOutlaw.
I think they fall in the category of

<u>2. No excessive or unprovoked flaming.</u> Its not very hard to follow as you put it.

Remarks made by some prick right under your nose.

Originally posted by: DragonOutlaw
lol stfu you fucking faggot stop complaining and start sucking my dick.

Originally posted by: DragonOutlaw
lol you noob whore
your moms a total fatass

What are you going to do about it. You removed my joke which even you admitted werent that offensive but what about forcing those precious rules of yours againt DragonOutlaw?



@ masamuneehs : I dont think that you even read what I posted. Those were two jokes. One liners. Even the mod admitted that they werent offensive. So what was the big deal. I feel like that cartoonist.

You might want to live in fear. Maybe you are use to it but not me.

[Carnage]

@assasin: What I meant was, it wasn't a threat. Thats the limit of freedom of speech. It was just a joke.

Wow, I can't believe nothing happens to Dragon Outlaw for serious flaming. When I do it everyone knows I'm just kidding. Usually. If nothing happens to him just because he is a mod, then no wonder Y and Mut left.

[Gotwoot Moderator]

Maybe some of the mods would let him get away with it, but I won't. The mods can't be browsing the forums 24 hours a day, and different mods have different styles and ways of dealing with things which is why you won't see complete consistency. But the bottom line is: Yes, the rules apply to everyone. DragonOutlaw gets a vacation for a few days.