Religious cartoon causes outrage in the muslim world

[Assassin]

Despite the fact that im sure 90% of ppl here are probably incapable of having a serious discussion, the Abortion topic has given me some hope.

Anyways, this is the story im referring to. For those too lazy to read it, basically the danish newspaper printed some cartoons back in september depicting the prophet muhammed in situations that muslims didn't find too funny. Although the newspaper is not affiliated with the government (atleast from what i know), the danish prime minister defended the cartoons saying it was freedom of press.

To make matters worse, 4 other european newspapers have printed the same cartoons to 'show support' for the danish newspaper.


Read the bbc story yourself, and give us your opinion on the issue. Please be advised that racisim or anyother form of flamming will not be tolerated.


Discuss away.

[el_boss]

The actual cartoons weren't what sparked the conflict. It was when the danish government refused to meet with some muslim diplomats that wanted to discuss this subject, that the shit really hit the fan. It seems like most news-sources are leaving out this essantial piece of fact.

The cartoons themselves are rather harmless in my opinion. I have them, and I can post them here if you want to see them. I just want to make sure that I don't get banned for posting them before I do.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: Assassin
Despite the fact that im sure 90% of ppl here are probably incapable of having a serious discussion, the Abortion topic has given me some hope.

C'mon dude, it ain't THAT bad. You're making this sound like Narutofan [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

As for the topic, yeah, I've heard a lot about this in the media recently.
My spontaneous response is "It's not weird that the world is so full of war, when morons can't even take a fucking joke".

[Kraco]

The whole thing is ridiculous. But even more ridiculous is the fact the Danes are losing millions because various countries are now boycotting their dairy and other products. But I suppose Jyllands-Posten isn't losing anything, nor the Danish prime minister, so everything's good...

[DB_Hunter]

The posts so far have missed the point. It's not what YOU guys think is acceptable or not, its what is offensive to Muslims. I find extremely patronising for people to say 'its a just a joke' or 'come on what are you lot crying about' etc etc etc... every person or group of people have their sensitivites and only they should determine the depth of their feelings towards them. Anyone who thinks otherwise should stop thinking like a colonialist and telling others over what issues they should get upset over or not.

The fact of the matter is is that these cartoons, forget the fact that they would upset Muslims for depicting such a sacred figure, actually set out to insult Islam. Which person would be naive enough to think that these cartoons are going to provoke reflection and contemplation in the mind of a Muslim?

I think its shows utter contempt and disrespect for Muslims for other countries in Europe to reprint the cartoons... at least the Danes could claim ignorance for arguments sake. What is particularly disgusting is a country like Germany claiming to defend the freedom of speech by printing these offensive cartoons whilst at the same time having blatantly hypocritical views towards the Holocaust... so its freedom of speech when you make outrageous cartoons about Islam but you are gonna get 10 years hard time if you decide to question the holocaust? Where the hell is free speech then? Would Germans like it if people dictated to them not to take the issue of the holocaust seriously? But hey, they can take what the like seriously, its their business.

As for boycott of Danish goods, so what? You expect a people to be insulted and take it lying down? The Western world can go about imposing sanctions on whoever it damn well pleases so why can't others do the same? Sure, we can discuss the merits of an economic boycott as an effective tool to discharge one's displeasure, but that's another thing.

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: DB_Hunter
As for boycott of Danish goods, so what? You expect a people to be insulted and take it lying down? The Western world can go about imposing sanctions on whoever it damn well pleases so why can't others do the same? Sure, we can discuss the merits of an economic boycott as an effective tool to discharge one's displeasure, but that's another thing.

I think you understood my post 180 degrees backwards. What I meant is that the Danish prime miniter is an idiot (no offence to any Danes here). All he had to do was, even after at first refusing to see the envoy, to make a strong apology and perhaps try to see anew the ambassadors. But instead, he just defends his stance that's nothing more than his own pride. I sure hope that dolt loses in the next election... Well, to speak the truth I don't really care since my home country isn't affected at all.

Basically the Danish Prime minister had to choose whether to help Jyllands-Posten, which didn't lose or win anything, or whether to help export companies, which are losing millions and millions. I suppose he got his campaign funding from the newspaper, since he chose Jyllands-Posten. Freedom of expression is all nice, but succesful business that employs people is nice as well. Too bad the Danish prime minister forgot that.

[Ero-Fan]

Ah, now this is why I feel religion is bad, and organized religion can make it worse. Why the hell can't they take a joke? Seriously, me and my friends make racial jokes all the time (especially concerning our own races). Why people take this so far over a fucking drawing?! Have they ever seen The Boondocks? You don't hear african-americans getting all worked up over that. Lighten up.. Damn religious nuts..
Edit: @ Above: I'm an Italian-german mix, if I got offended every time someone called me a deigo or nazi or guito (I can't spell, I know) I'd never have a moments peace. God, I'm already bored with this topic. Hey, El_Boss, pm me those cartoons, I need a good laugh..

[Carnage]

1.) this is the way the world is. People suck.

2.) El_boss, please pm me the pictures, I want to laugh

3.) {It was done not to defend freedom of the press, but to spite the Muslims," Mohammad Aman Hobohm said.}

even if it was to spite the muslims, it wasnt like a letter saying " I DECLARE WAR ON THE MUSLIMS!" Its still freedom of speech. Fucking extremists.

@DB_Hunter: Alot of my family is Muslim, I'm even considered muslim. I don't take any offense from these kinds of jokes.

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: Ero-Fan
Ah, now this is why I feel religion is bad, and organized religion can make it worse. Why the hell can't they take a joke? Seriously, me and my friends make racial jokes all the time (especially concerning our own races). Why people take this so far over a fucking drawing?! Have they ever seen The Boondocks? You don't hear african-americans getting all worked up over that. Lighten up.. Damn religious nuts.

Any group of people is capable of being sensitive to some issues, religion has nothing to do with it. Hell, I hear more "dat's racist!" than anything else where I live. However I do think this issue is being way overblown.

pm me the cartoons too, el_boss.

Originally posted by: God#2
Alot of my family is Muslim, I'm even considered muslim. I don't take any offense from these kinds of jokes.

Which is how it should be. But then again, you're not in the position of representing a large amount of people. I don't think Boubakeur could easily laugh this off. So I guess I kinda see how things got so tense, but I still think it's an overreaction.

[Jadugar]

I agree with DB_Hunter that you ppl have missed the point. Saying that its just a joke, it isnt. It might be a joke to someone but it aint a joke to someone else. There is a very fine line. I bet the people who are saying its just a joke they wouldnt like it if they were on the other side and the joke was on them. Fun is always at someone expense. Nobody like being ridiculed.

If you are lighting a dynamite. It wil explode. It wont turn into a flower. People are fine with joke but everything has a limit. EVERTTHING. When you hit that barrier then be prepare to face the consequences. If you know something is going to upset someone then why say it. There are plenty of jokes about religion but to criticise someone to its core is not a joke, its humilation and nobody likes that. NOBODY.

If those cartoons were some sort of freedom of speech then people who are protesting against them why their opinions arent called so called "freedom of speech". Even freedom of speech has its limits.

I live in English. The leader of the modern world and an example of multicultural society. Although the cartoons are published all over the EU but they have not been published here yet. Why, because there is a wide community of Muslims and British pple know that they will get upset by it. Why would you upset your neighbours.

I dont see Muslims making any cartoons about any other religions then why would they take it lying down when someone play a dirty trick on them.

If you want to live in a modern world where there is no war and peace then you need to learn how to respect others believes and their faiths.

Personally I dont discuss politics and religion becuase I know they are controversal and I have very strong believes and nothing will change them. You might debate on a particular problem but why cant we stay away from things which you will cause trouble.

You want to make cartoons, fine make something useful, something about peace, war, hatred, racism. Becuase that my friend is hard to do. Any moron can make those offensive cartoons.

//peace out

@ Terra : I am glad this discussion is not taking place in NarutoForum[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[Carnage]

If those cartoons were some sort of freedom of speech then people who are protesting against them why their opinions arent called so called "freedom of speech".

You are right. But I think I saw a picture of a burning car and I don't think thats a part of "freedom of speech".

[Ero-Fan]

Yeah, if I have to put up with idiots burning my flag and the KKK marching in the streets, then they can put up with a little comic strip. I'd shoot them if I could, but freedom of speech is a two way street. Deal with it like the rest of us do. Ignore shit you don't like.

[Jadugar]

@ God#2 : Idiots are a universal race. They dont have any religion. Aftermath of this situation has nothing to do with religion. Thats just people. Burning cars will not solve anything. No religion preeches voilence but the world we live in is not an ideal one. *Sigh*

[Assassin]

intresting, intresting.

I'd just like to point out something that everyone seems to be missing. As el_boss has already stated, it wasn't the cartoons that caused all the outrage. After the cartoons were published, 15 arab nations wrote a letter to the danish prime minister asking to meet with him in order to discuss a solution to this problem.

It was only when he blatantly refused this invitation that tehse nations got mad and the conflict escalated to this point. So to all of those people saying "its just a joke, dont be a pussy", its not the joke thats making muslims so mad, its the fact that there was an offer for a peaceful solution, and it was refused outright. And as a result, muslims are once again the bad guys making death threats and burnign flags.

Originally posted by: God#2
even if it was to spite the muslims, it wasnt like a letter saying " I DECLARE WAR ON THE MUSLIMS!" Its still freedom of speech. Fucking extremists.

I dont quite understand what you're trying to say here. You cant chalk everything up to freedom of speech. Even freedom must have limitations, otherwise its nothing more then anarchy. Even though the danish newspaper has the right to freedom of speech and expression, they also have a responsibility to thier readers. And as far as being extremists, i dont see how expressing thier outrage and boycotting danish products are in anyway extremism or fundamentalism.


Now, im a muslim, and my personal view on this is that the editor of the danish newspaper should have known better. I think Saudia arabia and Libya pulling out thier ambassadors and closing thier embassies was a good move. It was a strong nonviolent way to show thier disapproval.

However, i dont agree with the boycott of the swedish/danish company. Although it does send a strong message, in the end its hurting the wrong people. The workers who lose thier jobs due to this are just gettign caught in the crossfire, and its not fair that they suffer for the mistakes of thier prime minister. Regardless, that is the case in any boycott, and everyone has thier own opinion on the subject.

As for the flag burning and death threats, thats just plain idiocy. Im rather ashamed to see muslims resort to such acts while claiming to defend islam. Anyone who has bothered studying islam, or the life of the prophet muhammed would know that islam teaches you to simply walk away in such situations, and that the prophet himself went through much abuse in his life, and never once did he choose to retaliate.

All in all, the paper did offer an apology, but the prime minster still doesnt seem to understand why this is such a big issue as he still defends the freedom of press.

[masamuneehs]

Well, goodness gracious me, I actually agree with Jadugar and DBHunter!

If I took my religion seriously like many Muslims do I would also be pissed about the depiction of their most revered spirtual icon. Making fun of someone to prove a greater point is one thing, doing the same just to get a kick out of it is bordering on sadism. Its like rubbing salt in a person's open wound simply because you have salt to spare. There is no good taste in that, merely insensitive cruelty. Overreaction? Who are we to judge? Any Muslims here? Any? Speak up, please.

I'm Christian and I've seen Christ take plenty of jokes and I'm pretty fine with it, simply because:
I respect a person's right to freedom of speech/expression OVER my own religious beliefs/followings. (herein, I believe, lies the crux of this dilemma, that is in the differences between mine and others)

HOWEVER, those who do not follow a doctrine of such 'secularly influenced' religion might understandably be quite angered by acts such as this. I cannot blame them, nor any (nonviolent) actions they take as a response to this. That is also their expression of speech/faith/freedom, and they are owed that just as the next man is.

@God#2: Who is to say that such a blashpemous attack at a reverred religious figure does not border on extremist agitation?
@Jadugar: Yes, I haven't seen too many Muslim cartoons on other religions, however the cartoons found on aljazeera.com are quite harsh on certain countries.
@Xan: Religion can have Everything to do with it. References (Crusades, Jihad, israel/Palestine, Sri Lanka, colonization of Americas). It has beenused as a great prop in the past, why not now?
@Ero-fan: Religion is not a bad thing. Perhaps it is actually one of the best things in the world. However, humans bring their human flaws and human evils into religion just as much as they do into everything else, turning such great enterprises into great enterprises of INTERESTS. That is the source of religion as a bastion of conflict; merely a perversion of the faith into a grounds for staking/battling for agendas. It is a conflict of interest that spils blood, nothing else (insanity excluded).

[DB_Hunter]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs

HOWEVER, those who do not follow a doctrine of such 'secularly influenced' religion might understandably be quite angered by acts such as this. I cannot blame them, nor any (nonviolent) actions they take as a response to this. That is also their expression of speech/faith/freedom, and they are owed that just as the next man is.

It is a conflict of interest that spils blood, nothing else (insanity excluded).

Agreed on both points. And as for Muslims speaking up, I have mentioned before on the forums I am Muslim... so count me as spoken up now.

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
@Xan: Religion can have Everything to do with it. References (Crusades, Jihad, israel/Palestine, Sri Lanka, colonization of Americas). It has been used as a great prop in the past, why not now?

Oh, I'm not denying that religion is a MAJOR factor in many controversial issues. In fact, in this case it is precisely the issue. I was just replying to this point in particular:

Originally posted by: Ero-Fan
You don't hear african-americans getting all worked up over that. Lighten up.. Damn religious nuts.

I suppose I meant to say that it's not just religious differences that cause things like this. As you said, it's conflicts of interest that spill blood, which are not at all limited to religion. I repeat that I think this thing is being overblown, but I also think those insulted are completely justified. It's a bit of an unfortunate circumstance.

[KitKat]

To those of you who advocate that people should learn to lighten up and take a joke, I want to make an important distinction here. There is a huge difference between religion and faith. There are a lot of people who classify themselves as belonging to a religion. It's kinda like belonging to a club. They do it for different reasons, but they're not too hung up on the details and they don't think that their membership of their own little religious club should really affect other people. I'd say a lot of people in North America and Europe are like this. Then we have the people who can be classified as not just being in a religion, but having faith. To these people, religion is not just something that you do, it's the fundamental truths of the world. It dictates their actions, it affects every aspect of their lives. When you insult someone's religion, no big deal. When you insult someone's faith, you insult the very core of who they are. I don't know if any of you believe in anything so strongly to be able to understand this. But basically, this is why we are seeing this extreme reaction. These people probably wouldn't get this upset about an insult to their nationality or culture, but they will not stand by and let Allah and their holy prophet be insulted.

As for freedom of speech, as has been pointed out before, this is a very blurred line. Is sexual harrassment freedom of speech? Generally, in our society we've come to the conclusion that freedom of speech applies only so far as it is not harming another person. To see that this event has sparked such serious and debilitating consequences for the parties involved, and on a nation-wide scale no less, sets off some warning flags in my mind that these cartoons crossed the boundary from being expressions of opinion to being instruments of harm.

[Jadugar]

I will give you a practical example of "freedom of speech of gotwoot" forum.

I just posted two line jokes in my last post. They werent even remotly offensive but they were removed. Why? because one of the gotwoot moderators thought that if he let this continue someone elsemight post something that crosses the line. So why am I being punished for it. If someone else decides to post something that is offensive then that is their crime not mine.

You want a discussion then read my earlier post in this thread. I am perfectly capable of a discussion without taking it far. I dont have the control over all the jerks on gotwoot. If someone decides to post something he can do so without my permission. Implying that something I did will lead someone is nonsense.

Give me back my freedom of speech. I want an apology. I bet its one of the moderators who thinks that those cartoons were just a joke.

I do believe gotwoot moderators have seperate accounts which they can use to log in and post. So come out.

I see a ban comimg.

[Gotwoot Moderator]

Jadugar, I think you are still under the misconception that Gotwoot is a democracy. This is a private forum, and the admins and mods are responsible for what we will allow here and what we will not. Our goal is to keep this a place where people can come and have fun discussing various topics. We have to have certain rules in place to keep order. We do take the concerns of our members very seriously, but in the end everyone must respect the decisions that are made whether you agree with them or not. If you read the rules, most of them are restrictions on what you may or may not say. There is no freedom of speech here. If you are not happy with the decisions are made, you always have the freedom to leave.