Abortion

[Carnage]

Originally posted by: Xollence
I'm for prolife, unless the baby's going to die anyway and it's dangering the mother. I don't think the burden or rape excuse should allow abortion. If you really don't want the child give it up for adoption.

I disagree. I chose pro- abortion w/ exceptions. If the idiot forgot to use a condom then its her fault. Its her burden as a result of her stupidity. But if the woman was raped, why should she give have to go through the pain of being pregnant for 9 months and then actually going through the pain of birth? Its not her fault, it wasnt her choice to be raped. And if teh child is given to an orphanage or up for adoption, then it might mentally scar the child forever knowing that his or her mom had to give him or her up.

[Mr Squiggles]

^ If they were too stupid to use contraceptive they're probably too stupid to raise a child properly.

Its not fair to the child either If your going to bring into a world that doesnt want him. And imo, I dont think its murder. At this point the "child" is just a bunch of cells, It's not concsious or anything. As well arrest someone for murder after "enjoying himself" because he's flushing all those innocent sperm down the toilet.

just my 2 cents

[The Heretic Azazel]

You jerk off in the toilet?

Pro choice in cases of rape, I think the baby might have feeling sometime while still in the womb though. Regardless of rape, accidental birth, etc, I don't think many people have a problem with a morning-72 hour after pill, abortion should be as quick and painless as possible and done as close to conception as it can. There's no reason to hold out till the third trimester and get the damn thing chopped up and sucked out from a tube.

[Mr Squiggles]

^ No, but it makes for easy disposal

But anyways, yeah the 72-hour after pill is definetly the best option, and its easier on everyone.

Originally posted by: God#2
If the idiot forgot to use a condom then its her fault. Its her burden as a result of her stupidity. But if the woman was raped, why should she give have to go through the pain of being pregnant for 9 months and then actually going through the pain of birth? Its not her fault, it wasnt her choice to be raped. And if teh child is given to an orphanage or up for adoption, then it might mentally scar the child forever knowing that his or her mom had to give him or her up.

So, abortion is fine if it is a result of rape because the mother is not ready for him and adoption might tromatize him, but its not okay if he is an accident because punishing the mother for her stupidity has priority over the fact that the mother is not ready for him and adoption might tromatize him?

[ChaosK]

pro choice, and when the babies born.

[Carnage]

Originally posted by: Mr Squiggles
^ No, but it makes for easy disposal

But anyways, yeah the 72-hour after pill is definetly the best option, and its easier on everyone.

Originally posted by: God#2
If the idiot forgot to use a condom then its her fault. Its her burden as a result of her stupidity. But if the woman was raped, why should she give have to go through the pain of being pregnant for 9 months and then actually going through the pain of birth? Its not her fault, it wasnt her choice to be raped. And if teh child is given to an orphanage or up for adoption, then it might mentally scar the child forever knowing that his or her mom had to give him or her up.

So, abortion is fine if it is a result of rape because the mother is not ready for him and adoption might tromatize him, but its not okay if he is an accident because punishing the mother for her stupidity has priority over the fact that the mother is not ready for him and adoption might tromatize him?

Meh, you got like %30 to %40 of it right. Abortion is fine because it isnt the mothers fault that she is pregnant if she is raped.

"and adoption might tromatize him, but its not okay if he is an accident because punishing the mother for her stupidity has priority over the fact that the mother is not ready for him "

that part was correct.

And "and adoption might tromatize him?"

its the mom's fault! If I were the baby I'd plot to kill the my parents[img]i/expressions/devil.gif[/img]

[Xollence]

Does it matter who's fault it is? How does the baby's life differ in the two situations? The baby's value isn't any less because the mother got raped.

[Kovash]

I'm pro-choice, because I believe in some respect, the mother (and father, assuming he's even in the picture) have the right to decide if they can or cannot raise a child. Having said that, however, if I was ever in a situation to decide for myself [or influence someone else's decision], I would choose 'life' every time.

Also, though I accidently chose 'from birth' for the second poll, I meant to say 'from conception'.


And, for anyone who cares, I'm not religious, though I am spiritual in a sense.


EDIT: Added sentence.

[Carnage]

Originally posted by: Xollence
Does it matter who's fault it is? How does the baby's life differ in the two situations? The baby's value isn't any less because the mother got raped.

Ok, I guess I didnt take enough consideration of the baby. But then that creates the problem where people can just go around having sex withou a worry because they can just abort the baby.

[Ero-Fan]

Originally posted by: God#2

Originally posted by: Xollence
Does it matter who's fault it is? How does the baby's life differ in the two situations? The baby's value isn't any less because the mother got raped.

Ok, I guess I didnt take enough consideration of the baby. But then that creates the problem where people can just go around having sex withou a worry because they can just abort the baby.

I would think disease is a good enough reason to wrap your tool.
Edit: Besides pregnancy, of course.

[LobsterMagnet]

Babies are fricking nothing more then little pets that eat sleep vomit and shit. I'd really say that a person isn't a person until they've grown to the point where they can express sentient concious thought. A fetus is not a fricking person. Damn stupid abortioners, I really think that it's something that should not be as big of deal as it is. Something used by politicians to manipulate stupid people and diverte their attention from real more pressing problems and issues.

[anphorus]

Well in this I'm going to have to go for my general philosophy on life in general "People should be allowed to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt others". So I'm going to have to go pro-choice on this one. Until the baby is born, even though I believe it is a human being it is still technically part of the mother, and therefore it should be her choice whether or not to have an abortion. I do agree that the father should have a say though, but no woman should be forced into aborting a child if she doesn't want to.

Now as to me: Personally, I could never support the abortion of any potential Anphorus-juniors which may some day exist, unless there was some kind of serious health risk, to either the mother or the baby. To me it would be the same as if I had strangled the kid myself and I just couldn't do that.

[Uchiha Barles]

Well, I am a religious person, and as far as I know, abortion is illegal based on the religion I follow (christianity). But l am unable to make a stand on this point. Because my argument for pro-life arises purely from religion, I'll just mention my problems with the pro-life argument. Like many of you have said or hinted, in a lot of cases an unwanted child is usually less likely to have a decent life then a wanted child. This child can grow up to become a burden on society, even to the point of being a criminal. I see it all the time around where I live. Children who don't have the resources or the guardianship necessary to mature in a productive manner, turning to drugs and violence. You can look in some of their eyes and see pain they've experienced as clearly as you read these words. Either because of what they do, or because of their inability to cope with their situation, sometimes I find myself thinking that these people are better off dead. I guess I'd have to say that I'm pro-choice. Not that I have no problems with abortion, but in the end, without a religious argument, I don't see any reason why abortion should be avoided if a couple does not want a child. I'm not one to force anything arising directly from religion on anyone unless it affects me somehow. What a couple chooses to do with their child has no bearing on me. Later on it life it may, but I can't predict that.

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
I honestly don't think I have a legal right to force such an incredible requirement on others. I may make moral and ethical arguments for/against those people, but are those enough to give me the right to try to create law based on my morals?

Just for the record, the answer to that question is a gigantic YES. Why? That's how this democracy works. You vote according to self-interest. Be it on the issue of abortion, taxes, foreign policy, whatever. People vote according to what is important to them, and you should to. What does this have to do with you pushing for the creation of laws that may force people do things according to your values? I'm sure you know this, but for most people, the way to push for laws is to elect legislators that promise to promote the viewpoints they hold dear. This probably includes you. Every law you have to obey, whether you like the law or not, is in place because someone pushed for that law based on their values. Consequently, you do have a right, a constitutional one at that, to force your values on others in this manner.

[Carnage]

Originally posted by: anphorus
Well in this I'm going to have to go for my general philosophy on life in general "People should be allowed to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt others".

You know I have that same exact philosophy?

[Paulyboy]

Man, its kinda wrong though, I would only allow abortions for rape causes or if she is going to die. Its mostly peoples faults for not using protection. For some reason its a spiritual thing to me, and I haven't even gone to church in like a year.

[ChiaCheese]

Originally posted by: anphorus
Well in this I'm going to have to go for my general philosophy on life in general "People should be allowed to do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't hurt others". So I'm going to have to go pro-choice on this one.

doesn't it hurt the fetus?

Originally posted by: anphorus
Until the baby is born, even though I believe it is a human being it is still technically part of the mother, and therefore it should be her choice whether or not to have an abortion.

not neccessarily. the fetus isn't a cancer or an organ or even made up of the mother's tissues. the fetus has his or her own unique DNA that is differant than the mother's. Just because the fetus depends on the mother to survive, does not mean that the fetus is a part of the mother. nor is the fetus a piece of property. my belief is that life starts at the moment the egg is fertilized and at that point it becomes human. It may not be as developed as a full adult but the unborn child should have the same human rights as any man woman or child, including the right to life and no one should have the choice to take that right away. so that being said, i believe abortion should be illegal. and if it was illegal, my hope would be that most of those that may one day have an unwanted pregnancy would finally take birth control seriously or see adoption as a viable option.

[Ero-Fan]

They tried making abortions illegal, it resulted in a lot of back-alley abortions that were dangerous to the woman since they weren't very clean or safe. Even if I were not pro-choice, its just logically not practical to completely ban all abortions.

[Kraco]

Originally posted by: ChiaCheese
It may not be as developed as a full adult but the unborn child should have the same human rights as any man woman or child, including the right to life and no one should have the choice to take that right away. so that being said, i believe abortion should be illegal. and if it was illegal, my hope would be that most of those that may one day have an unwanted pregnancy would finally take birth control seriously or see adoption as a viable option.

Human rights is not some holy verdict. It only exists to make it easier and safer for people to live during normal times. It's like a part of good manners and conduct. A means to ensure the strong don't oppress the weak.

However, human rights are not basically meant to make life harder. If abortion was made illegal based on human rights, it'd on most occasions make life harder for those who would personally suffer the consequences of such a law. A fetus or embryo, which has not yet reached consciousness is mentally unaware of its existence and thus unaware of its death as well.

Personally I don't think the flesh of a human is as important as what's inside his/her mind. The personal identity, mind, experiences and opinions of an individual are what make a human being. The fetus/embryo lacks all of them. It's nothing but a lump of flesh.

[DB_Hunter]

I guess I'm wading into the waters a bit late but I will give my view anyway.

You could classify me as a religious person. There are a few people on the forum with whom I have discussed these issues already so they would already know that. To be more specific I am a Muslim.

As far as I understand Islam's position on abortion, it is the following. If a woman is to have an abortion or not depends on the circumstances. We all know that once an egg is fertilized it wil start to grow into a human. Since killing a human, no matter how old simply for existing is not allowed, the question is when exactly can we term this lump of cells to be alive? The time at which they zygote is said to have life is said to be either 40 or 42 days after fertilization (the number difference lies in the process of deriving Islamic laws, and you have to pick one number based upon what you think is the strongest derivation process). After this point, you cannot carry out an abortion. I am not sure but I think exceptions do exist, such as if the health (be it mental or physical) of the mother is seriously under threat (not one of those oh no I'm pregnant now what scenarios). There may be other exceptions but I am not sure. As for parents wanting to end the life of the unborn child due to fears of poverty, this is not allowed because there is a concept in Islam which states that your worldy provision or rizq in arabic is provided by Allah and that you would not die until you have received all of your rizq.

Before the 40 or 42 day period abortions are allowed in Islam and are considered to actually be a form of contraception, since you are not killing a live being.

[Aramis]

Yes to all aborts...babies have less intelligence than creatures we kill for food, they won't mind being killed. and you can always get a new one whenever you want.