The Bitching Thread

[Kraco]

There's also an electronics recycling fee in all products running on electricity in the EU. However, it isn't nearly as much as that! It's also not just an additional random tax with a bullshit explanation, because it ensures you can take your old, broken device to the shop where you get your new one, and they must take care of it appropriately with no extra charge. Or you can take old electronics for free to the municipal recycling centers.

Personally I think ours is an excellent system. Electronics are very worth it to recycle due to the rare earth elements and other stuff contained within. If you can get rid of them officially and "for free", because you have paid the recycling fee already no matter what, it leaves no excuse to dump them to the woods or something else nasty. Of course there are and will always be blistering idiots who no matter what carry their old stuff to somebody else's land instead; as long as there are humans on Earth, there will be idiots as well. At least this system ensures normal people don't be tempted to become idiots only to save a few euros.

[Buffalobiian]

A taxable tax is just laughable. I'd appeal that and ask for a reason for such a shitty system.

[fahoumh]

There's also an electronics recycling fee in all products running on electricity in the EU. However, it isn't nearly as much as that! It's also not just an additional random tax with a bullshit explanation, because it ensures you can take your old, broken device to the shop where you get your new one, and they must take care of it appropriately with no extra charge. Or you can take old electronics for free to the municipal recycling centers.

Personally I think ours is an excellent system. Electronics are very worth it to recycle due to the rare earth elements and other stuff contained within. If you can get rid of them officially and "for free", because you have paid the recycling fee already no matter what, it leaves no excuse to dump them to the woods or something else nasty. Of course there are and will always be blistering idiots who no matter what carry their old stuff to somebody else's land instead; as long as there are humans on Earth, there will be idiots as well. At least this system ensures normal people don't be tempted to become idiots only to save a few euros.

We have the exact same system and for the same reasons which seem ecologically responsible. I was just really annoyed that was such a staggering amount, more than 13% of the cost of the TV...the $300 TV ended up to $383.62 after the eco fee and tax.

It wouldn't be as bad if the manufacturer shared in the fee since they produce these electronics that ultimately produce the waste. Though it seems like our provincial government is proposing to scrap the eco fees paid by consumers and put them onto the producers...but then the producers will just add it to the cost of the electronics so consumers will still end up paying for them in the end. Source.

A taxable tax is just laughable. I'd appeal that and ask for a reason for such a shitty system.

Appeal to who, exactly? Corrupt politicians who have ZERO accountability? Or retailers who just shrug their shoulders and say they're forced to charge these fees by the government?

[Buffalobiian]

Appeal to who, exactly? Corrupt politicians who have ZERO accountability? Or retailers who just shrug their shoulders and say they're forced to charge these fees by the government?

Your local MP? It's not likely to do much, it it may help you in knowing you've done your bit in trying to improve the system, and the slack's on other people. It's just a vent, like how you write complaints to companies.

[Kraco]

We have the exact same system and for the same reasons which seem ecologically responsible. I was just really annoyed that was such a staggering amount, more than 13% of the cost of the TV...the $300 TV ended up to $383.62 after the eco fee and tax.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but my gut feeling is that for a 300 euros product it would be a few euros. It's not separated in receipts or price tags or such. In any case when it was introduced years ago, the prices certainly didn't jump up by any really significant amount. The fee is already paid by the manufacturers (or importers if imported from outside of EU). That fee directly funds the system to collect and process the old devices, so it doesn't dangerously go through the state.

[fahoumh]

Your local MP? It's not likely to do much, it it may help you in knowing you've done your bit in trying to improve the system, and the slack's on other people. It's just a vent, like how you write complaints to companies.

I've never actually written to my local MP...though maybe I should.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but my gut feeling is that for a 300 euros product it would be a few euros. It's not separated in receipts or price tags or such. In any case when it was introduced years ago, the prices certainly didn't jump up by any really significant amount. The fee is already paid by the manufacturers (or importers if imported from outside of EU). That fee directly funds the system to collect and process the old devices, so it doesn't dangerously go through the state.

As of right now I think the consumers share most of the burden of funding the recycling program...or it seems that way with the exorbitant fees.

[Kraco]

As of right now I think the consumers share most of the burden of funding the recycling program...or it seems that way with the exorbitant fees.

Now matter how the system works, it's obvious the end users will pay - ultimately it's always the consumers. After your post I read a bit about the situation over here and interestingly enough it looks like that even though our fee is but a fraction of yours, it's still generating surplus, which is returned to the manufacturers and importers! Theoretically that should allow them to adjust prices down, but the pessimist in me believes it rather goes straight into the bottomless pockets of the stock owners. The law dictates the organization (which is basically a cooperation effort by the involved business) must have a reserve fund that will ensure six months of continued recycling even if something happened to make the normal funding model crash.

I have nothing to complain about. When I took a year ago a big load of old electronics and devices from collecting dust in my corners to the free recycling center, it felt rather good. But unless you had no recycling whatsoever before your outrageous fee appeared, and thus it's all built from nothing, then it's clear somebody (or something, like the state) is embezzling. If it all goes to the right purpose, I'd imagine it will drop at some point. Another possibility is that it's a fixed amount, not progressive like our. I believe that the more expensive and bigger the device you get here, the more the fee will be. According to some source I spotted the max is 25 euros. Perhaps if you buy some 3000 euros mammoth TV, the fee is up to 25€ for it.

[fahoumh]

Now matter how the system works, it's obvious the end users will pay - ultimately it's always the consumers. After your post I read a bit about the situation over here and interestingly enough it looks like that even though our fee is but a fraction of yours, it's still generating surplus, which is returned to the manufacturers and importers! Theoretically that should allow them to adjust prices down, but the pessimist in me believes it rather goes straight into the bottomless pockets of the stock owners. The law dictates the organization (which is basically a cooperation effort by the involved business) must have a reserve fund that will ensure six months of continued recycling even if something happened to make the normal funding model crash.

I have nothing to complain about. When I took a year ago a big load of old electronics and devices from collecting dust in my corners to the free recycling center, it felt rather good. But unless you had no recycling whatsoever before your outrageous fee appeared, and thus it's all built from nothing, then it's clear somebody (or something, like the state) is embezzling. If it all goes to the right purpose, I'd imagine it will drop at some point. Another possibility is that it's a fixed amount, not progressive like our. I believe that the more expensive and bigger the device you get here, the more the fee will be. According to some source I spotted the max is 25 euros. Perhaps if you buy some 3000 euros mammoth TV, the fee is up to 25€ for it.

Our province is running a substantial deficit and it's not like we're paying any less taxes. It's clear as day that public money is grossly mismanaged: stolen by corrupt politicians for personal use, poorly invested, given to large corporations and banks in the form of ridiculous subsidies and tax breaks (I guess the billions of dollars in NET profits are never enough). Corruption in politics is nothing new and will never change; there have been several politicians recently who got caught using public money for their own purposes and you know what happened? Nothing. They supposedly gave the money back, apologized and continued going about their business. Meanwhile, anyone else who gets caught stealing gets charged, even if they give what they stole back. Politicians have ZERO accountability here. But I'm going off on a rant here, so I'll just stop now.

I have recycled 3 or 4 old computers but nothing substantial. Old televisions have been left outside and collected by people who drive around neighbourhoods picking up recyclable or reusable waste.

[enkoujin]

Mail-in-rebates (MIR) - specifically, the most recent types of mail-in-rebates.

I purchased an ASUS product today that has a mail-in-rebate sale. I thought it was innocent enough until I realized the ingenuity involved with MIRs. It brings price discrimination to a whole new level. It tricks the consumer into thinking that a product is on sale, which encourages greater sales. You have to pay full price for an item you might not have otherwise bought if there wasn't a special going on. Then, the consumer has to take the time to register for the rebate online, print off the form, copy the receipt, and cut out the UPC, pay postage, and wait for a few weeks (excluding first-class shipping) to get what was offered a month ago.

Meanwhile, the retailer benefits from making a sale on a regular-priced item (full taxes too!), and the manufacturers count on the laziness of consumers to not send in the MIR. When I considered all the work involved for the $10 MIR, I thought I was wasting a lot of my time and effort, but my pride didn't allow the system to game me.

But then, it did.

The MIR I'll be getting back is through an Amex gift card instead of a check (no other choice)... I thought this was ridiculous. These MIRs are like a chain reaction - the expenditures for these products create more expenditures when you get a rebate. Now I'll have this extra piece of flimsy plastic to engage in more transactions where companies can make more money off of my purchases. Can't I just get a check and save my money that I was supposed to be promised in the transaction? What happened to the concept of saving money? Isn't that one of the main reasons why the economy turned to shit in 2008?

tl;dr:The capitalist system gamed me today through MIRs and I don't like it.

EDIT: Just realized that MIRs can be abused by company refunds with original receipts, inflation creeps up to you while you're waiting to get your money back, and the manufacturers have my personal information. They are truly one of the most underrated evils of our markets and I'm pledging to boycott all products with MIRs in the future.

[Buffalobiian]

More accurately, the problem wasn't so much that people weren't saving money, but were borrowing money that they couldn't pay back (and institutions allowed such borrowing) right?

I haven't heard of these mail-in-rebates before, but they sound like a point system / loyalty-card system, except you have to work for it.

[enkoujin]

More accurately, the problem wasn't so much that people weren't saving money, but were borrowing money that they couldn't pay back (and institutions allowed such borrowing) right?

You're definitely right - I really went off tangent on the issue.

I haven't heard of these mail-in-rebates before, but they sound like a point system / loyalty-card system, except you have to work for it.

Pretty much - leverage is definitely more on the retailer and manufacturer's side with this system in place.

[Animeniax]

You shouldn't look at it like the MIR is the only reason you made the purchase. Is the product worth the price paid (ie full market price)? If yes, then the MIR is icing. If the product isn't worth the price, then don't buy it.

I know MIRs are mostly a scam, similar to gift cards, where the retailer/manufacturer relies on peoples' laziness to recoup costs or make profit. That falls back on consumers to not discard gift cards and to follow up on MIRs. If it's not worth your effort for the $10 MIR, then the product must be worth full price.

[Buffalobiian]

I suppose the trick is that with rebates they can announce that the item is now $$ after rebate, giving the illusion that you're saving on the current product, while the point system makes the need for a future purchase to realise the saving more obvious. Putting a monetary value on the saving also makes it more concrete than earning "points".

Well done to marketing..

[Kraco]

I occasionally see those rebates on some products (though they are vastly more uncommon here than they seem to be in the USA) , but I have never bought any product that happened to have it active, so I never knew how troublesome they could be to cash in. Although I imagine it could also depend on the company you are dealing with.

[Buffalobiian]

I hope I never have to see one, ever. All the rebates here are done in-shop, at the cash register.

[Kraco]

I hope I never have to see one, ever. All the rebates here are done in-shop, at the cash register.

That's strange. You'd think the likes of Canon or Microsoft, for example, had the same system everywhere since the same products are sold everywhere. Maybe your national laws forbid such rebates?

[Buffalobiian]

That's strange. You'd think the likes of Canon or Microsoft, for example, had the same system everywhere since the same products are sold everywhere. Maybe your national laws forbid such rebates?

I just did a quick search and someone's bought a monitor at an Australian shop that involved an Acer MIR, so I presume it's legal. I've just never seen one advertised. If they're unadvertised, then I never bought something that had MIR. Mandatory online registration for warranty services is the worst I've had to deal with in this regard. It sucked when I didn't have the box anymore for my mobo, but required the serial number to contact technical support to ask about 3-4TB HDD support.

[Ryllharu]

Tree falls on powerlines across the street, snaps the power lines. Was without power for 7 hours, but because it was in the high 80s (~30C) and my house was correspondingly quite warm, I lost everything in the fridge and freezer, except for the mustard and soy sauce.

3rd time in just about a year (edit: that I've lost the contents of my fridge and freezer).

[Kraco]

7 hours because of such a thing? The local electricity company surely saw no need to hurry, huh?

[Ryllharu]

Nah, the line crews were on the scene within the hour. It was just a nasty fix because the tree was still on top of all the other lines that hang from telephone poles.