The Bitching Thread

[Animeniax]

I play plenty of games, but beyond ME3 and D3 auction house I haven't seen this level of pay for in-game eq. It seems like more than half the items in the game can only be acquired via cash or by sacrificing all other upgrades to save up for with in-game collectible items. It's sad to see the game world head in this direction. I'd prefer they left out MP and co-op play and charged for those, than to be required to pay for items that should be acquirable in-game.

[Ryllharu]

I can't even remember all the Korean games I know that do this. Every single one I have ever played. Gunbound, Maple Story, some shitty dance rhythm browser game, Silkroad Online, Granado Espada, on and on and on.

If you want to talk "AAA" titles, there are dozens and dozens that do this. Just two examples, because I really don't want to waste too much time on this:

Saint's Row 3
DLC includes:
Unlockable Pack - Unlocks items, upgrades and bonuses that weren't chosen during normal gameplay.
Invincible Pack - This is literally DLC pack of cheat codes. Guns do more damage, never have to reload, etc.

Battlefield 3
DLC Includes:
Support Kit Shortcut - Unlocks all upgrades for the Support Class
(Three other specific class ones)
Vehicle Shortcut Bundle - Unlocks all upgrades for all vehicles
The Ultimate Shortcut Bundle - Unlocks all upgrade for all classes and vehicles


Place your faux outrage elsewhere. Even if you "play a lot of games," you don't know a whole lot about the industry trends as a whole.

[Edort4]

This new game industry is here to stay. In my opinion is sad that this is the only way they have found to get profits but we have to get used to it. Anyway there are still plenty of companies and games that dont use this "extraction" system but they arent what we could call the mainstream in game industry. Big companies will keep this model of busineess unless users start to give their backs to them, but I dont see that happening anywhere soon. Thank god we never had to buy a DLC to get the rocket launcher in Doom 2.

We have lived the golden age of game industry now we are getting into the dark age.

[Buffalobiian]

Battlefield 3
DLC Includes:
Support Kit Shortcut - Unlocks all upgrades for the Support Class
(Three other specific class ones)
Vehicle Shortcut Bundle - Unlocks all upgrades for all vehicles
The Ultimate Shortcut Bundle - Unlocks all upgrade for all classes and vehicles

I was pretty annoyed when I saw that upgrade pack. It put me into the dilema of whether I should waste money to unlock those, or whether I should chew up my time to unlock those.

[Ryllharu]

If you want to talk "AAA" titles, there are dozens and dozens that do this. Just two examples, because I really don't want to waste too much time on this:

I'll make it even better by including a much older AAA title to prove how not-new of a trend this is.

Tales of Vesperia (2008)
DLC includes:

Battle Support Item Pack - (Magic Lens, Life Bottle, Cure Bottle, Syrup Bottle, Nectar Bottle, Limit Bottle) x 10 (All-Divide, Hourglass) x 3 *Can also be obtained in the game. *This can only be purchased once.

300,000 Gald - Obtain 300,000 Gald. *This can only be purchased once.

Synthesis Kit: Lv. 3 - Whole ton of crafting items that can be obtained in game. *This can only be purchased once.

Pack o' Useful Stuff - A set of items that can come in handy during your journey. (Special Flag, Moon Selector, Winged Boots, Kitchen Knife, Salvage Crane, Collector's Book) *Can also be obtained in the game.

etc.

[Death BOO Z]

if you need to include DLC content in your game, then the product you're selling isn't as good as it can be. especially in single player game. the company should change the game to make it more fun to play and less frustrating, not put a patch on the bad gameplay and charge money for.

if gamers don't like to farm for random drops in single player, the solution is to make the drop rate more reasonable.
if the companies want to offer a 'more fun, casual and less restirctive form of play' by giving the player all upgrades, they should call it easy mode and include it from the get-go.

I guess it's just a different business plan; I think of the game as a single product that should entertain me (like a book), they think of it as a downpayment that they can build on and use as a channel to get more of my money.

[Animeniax]

Place your faux outrage elsewhere. Even if you "play a lot of games," you don't know a whole lot about the industry trends as a whole.

I love how you say shit like this, yet my post has generated a bit of discussion with similar views to mine.

This new game industry is here to stay. In my opinion is sad that this is the only way they have found to get profits but we have to get used to it. Anyway there are still plenty of companies and games that dont use this "extraction" system but they arent what we could call the mainstream in game industry. Big companies will keep this model of busineess unless users start to give their backs to them, but I dont see that happening anywhere soon. Thank god we never had to buy a DLC to get the rocket launcher in Doom 2.

We have lived the golden age of game industry now we are getting into the dark age.

Yeah I agree it's sad they haven't found a better way to improve the gaming experience while also increasing their profits. They already raised prices so PC games cost $60 instead of $50 at launch. And with the emphasis on MP, SP campaigns have suffered, so paying full price for a game that you get 8-10 hours of play time just doesn't seem worth it. The developers don't get that not all gamers are into community and online play. Love the comment about the rocket launcher in Doom 2.

if you need to include DLC content in your game, then the product you're selling isn't as good as it can be.

This is the truth.

if gamers don't like to farm for random drops in single player, the solution is to make the drop rate more reasonable.
if the companies want to offer a 'more fun, casual and less restirctive form of play' by giving the player all upgrades, they should call it easy mode and include it from the get-go.

Alternatively if players are ok with farming, the eq should be available for them to farm in-game, not have to pay for.

I guess it's just a different business plan; I think of the game as a single product that should entertain me (like a book), they think of it as a downpayment that they can build on and use as a channel to get more of my money.

Companies used to build on the game with story expansion packs and sequels, not charge you for eq that should be farmable in the game. I'm also not happy with the preorder bonuses, something we've discussed before.

[Ryllharu]

Good god...

"The Corporations, they're the true enemy, man."

Just because a few people agree with you, doesn't make any of you right.

1) Entitled Gamer Complaint: Games were $50 when I was growing up, now they're $60! They just trying to screw the consumer over!

Intelligent Response #1: When I was growing up, games were up to $75. This was 1993 (video of a catalog).
Take Mortal Kombat for genesis. $62.99. Adjust that for inflation to 2013: $100.38.
Take WWF Royal Rumble. $74.99 Adjust for inflation to 2013: $119.51
Take an average game from that catalog. $49.99. Adjust for inflation: $79.67.

Current generation games started in 2005, they were released for $60, much to the dismay of gamers everywhere. $60 in 2005 adjusted for inflation to 2013: $74.27

Games are cheaper than they have ever been.

FACT.

Yet their production budgets are higher than ever.
Is it really any wonder that they might want to make up for this massive differential in stabilized prices combined with increase in production costs?

Want to bitch about something legitimate? The prices of games NOT in the US.
The Australian Dollar is roughly equivalent to the US dollar these days. Yet they're charged $80-90 AUD on average for games. The Euro is worth more than the US Dollar. They're charged 60 Euro for a game. This isn't even physical copies. This is digital distribution like Steam.

2) Entitled Gamer Complaint: Everything that is DLC should be on the disc! It's bullshit that they have Day 1 DLC!

Intelligent Response #2:
Game development teams are massive these days. This goes along with the increased development costs of "AAA" titles. There are writers, concept artists, graphics artists, programmers (and a huge array of those), quality assurance teams, etc. Once the game has to be released for certification, publishing and release (commonly referred to as "going Gold"). The certification process takes a long time. Months even.

The writers, concept artists, graphic artists and a subset of the programmers don't have a whole lot to do unless the studio is immediately moving to their next title, which they won't while the game is still being readied for release. They can shift around people if they have multiple teams, but that only works for the larger studios.
So you know what they're going to work on? DLC content. Shorter turn around, shorter certification period, easy to accomplish. So yes, some of it gets released on the same day the game does.

You know what happened to this kind of content in the days of yesteryear? It never got made at all. If you were lucky and the game was successful, it got included in an expansion pack. Which cost money. Which also had to go through its own certification period.

[Animeniax]

I also like how you dismiss my complaint as frivolous, then proceed to write a dissertation about it.

In the end, squeezing gamers for DLC will hurt the companies. If I have to spend more to get the full experience from a single game, that's fewer games I'll play overall (that I pay full price for). They're going to bleed each other dry, as the bigger developers draw all the money away from smaller independents. What I've been doing is waiting a few months for prices to drop before buying. But sooner or later I'll return to the free dl option, if not for the full game, then at least for the DLC.

[Ryllharu]

Oh no, separate issues.

Your argument that "a new trend" is making DLC that sells stuff available in-game is still frivolous. Pay for convenience isn't new.

Then you two decided to go on the separate track that game devs are trying to rip people off with higher prices and DLC that should be included on the disc. Both assertions are fundamentally false. Games are cheaper than ever, and in previous generations, this DLC (occasionally free) would never have been made.

[Animeniax]

Dude what have I said about reading too much into my posts? I get off a 2 hour run on DS3 (it's a horror action shooter, gets the heart rate going), then post a half-cocked rant on an internet forum at 2AM. Don't take it so seriously.

[Ryllharu]

Nice posturing and backpedaling, "dude."

I'd almost believe it if you hadn't made other posts on the same subject.

[Animeniax]

That'll teach me to forgive your neurotic need to research and argue meaningless factoids to show your supposed awareness. Just imagine if you put that energy into something worthwhile like curing cancer.

I could care less about "trends" in the gaming industry. I'm currently playing a video game that happens to require additional cash pay to get the full experience and I call bullshit on that.

[Kraco]

Aren't there so many DLCs nowadays simply because the technology now makes it exceedingly easy to release content in that form and make a solid business out of it? Naturally that wasn't the case 10 years ago, so it's useless to compare the situations. Even if individual people working as game makers, who are themselves oft gamers as well, want to make good games they are proud of, it's still the business that brings bread and rice to their dinner table, at the end of the day. You make money any way you can to keep your boat floating.

[Animeniax]

Yes but pissing off customers by reducing what comes in the game and making them pay for it as extras isn't good for business either. As people become more tech-savvy and find ways to circumvent paying for content, this sort of business model will encourage piracy.

[Ryllharu]

They're not reducing anything.

Maybe you forgot the primary reason why games used to be "Nintendo hard." You can beat a lot of them, without cheats, in less than two hours.

That's even true of the PS era. Just search for speed runs on youtube. A lot of them aren't even tool-assisted (run at slow frames to make easier).

[Animeniax]

Games had come a long way since the Nintendo and PS1 to what was a pretty awesome period in gaming. Like Edort4 said, we were in a golden age, and now we're heading into a dark age for gaming. The graphics may be prettier, but the soul is being lost.

[David75]

Then there are some freemium on tablets/smartphones with riduculous prices for some items (isn't one of the cars in CSR like US$100?)

[fahoumh]

As far as DLC, I usually just wait for "Game of the Year" editions of games like Batman and Borderlands. I honestly don't care if a game's 2 years old when I play it.

[Animeniax]

As far as DLC, I usually just wait for "Game of the Year" editions of games like Batman and Borderlands. I honestly don't care if a game's 2 years old when I play it.

It's been thay way for me for a while where I'll wait for a game to go down in price before buying it, sometimes as special editions. But some games I will buy at release for full price. When I was working with college students, it sucked to be out of the loop on the latest game they were all playing and talking about.

DS3 has gotten better about items towards the middle of the game. There are actually better supply drops you can use to both survive and build the higher priced items, instead of buying them for cash as DLC. Earlier in the game these items were so scarce it didn't seem possible.

edit: I'll say this for DS3, it might be worth it to pay the extra cash for the upgrades. They aren't really necessary to succeed in the game, but it's a long game so it might be worth the upgrades and customizations. I'm 50% complete and spent 14 hours on the game at hard difficulty. And that's missing about 5-10% of the optional missions.