Bleach 61

[Munsu]

Shinigamis don't go around doing that because it's illegal in Soul Society...

Technically Aizen would be able to, but it would take a shitload of time... And we don't know if it will affect all people like it did to Ichigo... Probably if the same thing was done to someone else he would've ended up being a shitty ass shinigami, so why bother?

And to answer you question about gigais...


Gigais usually help shinigamis recover their spiritual power, they are made up with spiritrons (or whatever they are)... The gigai that was placed on rukia didn't posses this, rather it was made of something (unknown to us) that aborbed her spiritual power, trying to transform her into a human being...

From what I can see since she is in soul society, she didn't go through the transformation so she should still be capable of recovering her lost spiritual powers (I'm not sure about this though, I don't really understand what they are trying to say when they say "to make her human")...


And you are misunderstanding the point he was trying to make with demon arts, He was merely stating that her demon magic was so weak because the gigai was preventing her from recovering her spiritual powers...


@DarthEnder, there was something important that was ommited in the anime from the manga... This should've happened right after Rukia was taken to Soul Society...

Some investigators found and examined Rukia's gigai and commented on something along the lines of "Wow, I've never since a gigai like this before... Whomever did it must've been very talented..." Of course, you can tie up this with whatever we have just learned from Urahara in this episode...

I think someone else mentioned this earlier in this thread... maybe someone can post the pics to what I'm reffering to if I haven't done so already...

[el_boss]

@Bud: With all that said, I still don't think it makes any sence that she could get her own powers back, but she might be able to start from scratch and aquire all new powers. Obviously I know that created shinigamis don't get as strong as Ichigo, but then again Rukia was rather weak to begin with. If your as strong as Aizen you probably get strong spawn. Regarding the gigai: spiritual power isn't = shinigami power. Even Ichigo's little sisters have spiritual power.

[Munsu]

There's a lot I would like to argue from your post since most of it doesn't make sense to me, but I'll go with this...



What in my entire post makes you think that it doesn't make sense for Rukia to regain her spiritual powers?


What really doesn't make sense is your reasoning on a "strong spawn"...

[Jadugar]

Put your hands up if you are tired of

Budweineken VS el_boss

[Munsu]

I'll put my hands up...

But what can I do...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
There's a lot I would like to argue from your post since most of it doesn't make sense to me, but I'll go with this...


What in my entire post makes you think that it doesn't make sense for Rukia to regain her spiritual powers?

I didn't mean that your post doesn't make sence. I just meant in general, the fact that she would be able to regain her "old" shinigami powers doesn't make sence. I know it's not the same thing, but it would be like Ichigo being able to regain the powers he got from Rukia instead of unlocking his own. It just seems stupid that she would be able to give all of her power to Ichigo (including her zanpaktou, right?) and then they get destroyed and then they just grow back.

Let me just make something clear. I'm actually not arguing aginst if Rukia will get her powers back. I just think it would be really stupid and just an easy solution to get Rukia back into the game. You might be right though, but I've come to expect more from a show like Bleach. I'm just theorising, obviously I don't know what will happen.

Edit: Why doesn't the strong spawn make sence?

[Munsu]

Rukia's spirit whatever (what was destroyed from Ichigo) is not destroyed, so she still possesses her spiritual powers... What the gigai did was absorbed any spiritual power that was created from Rukia in order to recuperate... So with the absense of this gigai, I still don't know what makes you think that her powers can't finally be restored? Rukia's powers don't reside inside Ichigo by the way... She doesn't have to get her powers back from him if that's what's confusing you...


About the strong spawn thing...

There's just no correlation with Ichigo being strong and Rukia being weak... and Aizen being strong being able to create a "strong pawn"...

I don't see what Rukia being weak has anything to do with what you are alluding, since Ichigo himself got his powers from Rukia (weak Rukia at that) and still is one strong mofo...

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
Rukia's spirit whatever (what was destroyed from Ichigo) is not destroyed, so she still possesses her spiritual powers... What the gigai did was absorbed any spiritual power that was created from Rukia in order to recuperate... So with the absense of this gigai, I still don't know what makes you think that her powers can't finally be restored? Rukia's powers don't reside inside Ichigo by the way... She doesn't have to get her powers back from him if that's what's confusing you...

It's not that I don't believe that she can't get her powers back per sey. I just feel that there should be some other negative side than just being punished by SS. That would mean as I said before even if it takes alot of time someone that doesn't care what SS says could go around making shinigamis. But maybe it will be as you said, that they will be weak, but there hasn't been anything that has said that they will.

The thing is that what made her inital situation in the show special, was that it felt like a sacrifice that she gave her powers to Ichigo. But if the powers would just grow back, that whole part of the show would have been unnecessary somehow. It raises some questions for me at least, which you might be able to answer. If the powers are that easy to regain, why did she stay on earth? Seems that she just as well could have gone to SS, it's rather wierd if shinigamis have to be on earth to regain their powers. If she was afraid that she would get punished if she returned, then did she plan on staying on earth forever? If so why did she care if she regained her powers at all.

About the strong spawn thing...

There's just no correlation with Ichigo being strong and Rukia being weak... and Aizen being strong being able to create a "strong pawn"...

I don't see what Rukia being weak has anything to do with what you are alluding, since Ichigo himself got his powers from Rukia (weak Rukia at that) and still is one strong mofo...

It's not really logical that a weak shinigami would create a strong one, normally. But obviously there is something special about Ichigo or Rukia that lead to Ichigo becoming abnormaly strong even with just Rukia's powers. One reason I can think of is that Ichigo has had the hollow thing all along and it allowed him to excede Rukias limits.

So what I'm saying is that a strong shinigami should logically get a strong "spawn" or whatever you want to call it, since he/she has more reiatsu to work with. Well we have only seen one shinigami creation so anything could be possible I guess, it could even be random for all we know, but that would be wierd.

[masamuneehs]

URUSAI URUSAI URUSAI URUSAI!!!!!!!

Holy Flame Wars Batman! This is getting out of hand! (not to mention boring, Robin)

From what I heard and understood, the two cases in point are this: Some think that Rukia's powers are FOREVER lost by Urahara's special Gigai. Other's think that her powers are only TEMPORARILY lost.

As for the "Creating other Shinigami by giving your power to others"
It is quite obviously against the rules. Obviosly someone could ignore them.
BUT, as of this point we have NO IDEA whether powers (once given) can ever return.
IF such transfered powers CAN return in time, then Boss has a point, someone could make an army of Shinigami that way.
IF such transfered powers CANNOT return in time, then Rukia will not get stronger ever (since Ichigo took almost all of her powers)
However, Rukia's transfering her powers to Ichigo was still quite a big deal. Think of it this way: They just met. Ichigo tried to help her fight the Hollow. Rukia is losing. She TRUSTS this stranger to help her, totally ignoring the rules of SS. Being raised by Byakuya, I'd think she'd be prepared to die rather than break the rules, in most cases. But obviously something about Ichigo (KAien) made her want to break the rules and save him and his family, thus giving the powers.

As for the "Spawn" issue.
I'm sorta confused here too... Do you mean like an initial return point of powers (say, after a completley draining fight or after transfering powers) where one's Reiatsu would return to?

Also, if Ichigo's example serves us at all, it shows that a great deal of the amount of powers transfered can depend on the person receiving the powers. Thus, ANY Shinigami transferring their powers would be hard-pressed to calculate what their Reiatsu/Power level would be like immediatley after the transfer. Also, recuperation and the question of IF all powers can return after a transfer are still quite up in the air. It seems quite risky for even Aizen to go about creating Shinigami in this way.

EDIT: And I'm not saying that my opinion isn't any better or worse than anyone elses. I just feel like this conversation needs some fresh blood in it... (perhaps we just need to wait until 62...)

[Assertn]

First of all: What kind of villain willingly gives up some of his power to create a team of pathetic lackeys? I've seen cases where villains STEAL power from lackeys to increase their own, but never the other way around.

and el_boss, it sounds like your whole argument is based around what you are HOPING to be the case, rather than what you are rationalizing to be the case. Frankly, I'd have to disagree with you completely on your opinion that Rukia not getting her powers back naturally would have a negative impact on the entertainment value of the show. I've been anxious to see Rukia get her power back ever since the first few episodes.

[Dezalanel]

I think you guys are confused on how transferring shinigami powers works. When Rukia gave her powers to Ichigo in the first episode her powers were supposed to come back and recover, while at the same time Ichigo would lose them. BUT since Rukia had the gigai this did not happen. Now since she is out of the power draining gigai there should be no reason why her powers will not recover. Ichigo will not lose his Shinigami powers though since he has his OWN shinigami powers not Rukias anymore.

[XanBcoo]

Dezalanel brings up a good point. I personally think Rukia might be able to get her powers back, for the reasons Bud stated.
Also:

But obviously there is something special about Ichigo or Rukia that lead to Ichigo becoming abnormaly strong even with just Rukia's powers. One reason I can think of is that Ichigo has had the hollow thing all along and it allowed him to excede Rukias limits.

I'm still 100% certain that a shinigami is only able to exceed the limits of a normal shinigami by actually becoming a hybrid and using the hollow powers. Not just having a hollow spirit present inside them. Ichigo never displayed any Hollow powers in the first arc of the series.

And another, minor point:

It just seems stupid that she would be able to give all of her power to Ichigo (including her zanpaktou, right?) and then they get destroyed and then they just grow back.

Rukia did not give Ichigo her actual zanpakuto. Zangetsu is Ichigo's, and always has been from episode 1. That is as I understand it at least.

[ChaosK]

im not sure what timeline you guys have in mind but i was thinking that urahara gave rukia the gigai well before rukia met ichigo, or else why would she be as weak as not be able to defeat a hollow that ichigo was able to slice up, being its his first time? it makes no sense, rukia did not transfer spirit power to ichigo, merely shinigami powers, ichigo had a shit load of spirit power himself and thats the reason why his sword was enormous, not becuase it was rukias. so im thinking ever since that given period where rukia met urahara she's been getting weaker little by little, to the extent that she could not even fight a hollow anymore.

[Dezalanel]

Urahara gave Rukia the gigai after she gave her powers to Ichigo. She would not have it before that because the only reason your in a gigai is to recover your powers as a shinigami. Also people seem to think Rukia is still in the gigai, this is not the case when she went to SS she was taken out of it.

[XanBcoo]

Urahara is shown offering the Gigai to Rukia sitting in the street with her white gi on. This was obviously after she gave her shinigami powers to Ichigo. She didn't need a gigai when she came to earth. A gigai is used for recovering powers, but it's main function is interaction with the living world (stated earlier). Perhaps Rukia is just naturally weak, and isn't able to face a hollow one-on-one. You could argue the only reason she was sent was because of some secret orders Aizen issued.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: XanBcoo
I'm still 100% certain that a shinigami is only able to exceed the limits of a normal shinigami by actually becoming a hybrid and using the hollow powers. Not just having a hollow spirit present inside them. Ichigo never displayed any Hollow powers in the first arc of the series.

Well since Ichigo is the only one that has a hollow spirit reciding inside him we can't really say anything for certain. So Ichigo's insane power level even now in SS (except for when the hollow takes over his body) has nothing to do with the hollow? That is certainly a valid argument, but then where does Ichigo get his immense strenght from? I would like to think that it's not just because he is the "chosen one" or whatever you like to call it.

Rukia did not give Ichigo her actual zanpakuto. Zangetsu is Ichigo's, and always has been from episode 1. That is as I understand it at least.

If she didn't give it to Ichigo then why did it dissapeared? It can't have anything to with the actual transfer since Ichigo still had his broken zanpaktou when he lost all her powers. I was under the impression that the Zangetsu is sort of the soul of the sword and that he "lives" in the sword. But I guess it could just as well be that he "lives" inside the shinigami and manifests himself as a zanpaktou.

Originally posted by: Dezalanel
I think you guys are confused on how transferring shinigami powers works. When Rukia gave her powers to Ichigo in the first episode her powers were supposed to come back and recover, while at the same time Ichigo would lose them. BUT since Rukia had the gigai this did not happen. Now since she is out of the power draining gigai there should be no reason why her powers will not recover. Ichigo will not lose his Shinigami powers though since he has his OWN shinigami powers not Rukias anymore.

I wasn't aware of this fact. I must say that Rukia regaining her powers makes alot more sence now and also why they don't go around creating shinigamis. But there is still an issue though. From what you're saying it seems like normally she would regain her powers at same pace that Ichigo loses his (hers). But what happens if he loses all her powers, like for example if someone cuts his spirit-link (can't recall what it's called, but you know like Buykuya did) and she isn't able to absorb anything at that point? Will the lost power be kept in some kind of pool until Rukia is able to aquire it or is it lost forever?

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Dezalanel
Urahara gave Rukia the gigai after she gave her powers to Ichigo. She would not have it before that because the only reason your in a gigai is to recover your powers as a shinigami. Also people seem to think Rukia is still in the gigai, this is not the case when she went to SS she was taken out of it.

Yikes, that's just flat out wrong. A gigai is described as a faux body, designed to simulate human bodies. If she was wearing that in the first episode, everyone would see her. Not to mention she wouldn't be able to turn into a butterfly or float all over the place and junk.

[ChaosK]

Originally posted by: Dezalanel
Urahara gave Rukia the gigai after she gave her powers to Ichigo. She would not have it before that because the only reason your in a gigai is to recover your powers as a shinigami. Also people seem to think Rukia is still in the gigai, this is not the case when she went to SS she was taken out of it.

are you telling me that rukia was never injured before this fight against this hollow? i bet everybody has a gigai for when they go to the human world. Urahara should be operating on a gigai at the moment because he cant open a store if he's invisible can he? i cant think of any raeson why urahara should be recovering. the gigai is for what assertn said, faux bodies and rukia already had that faux body in episode one. this means that she got it before she met ichigo. didnt she disappear after ichigo fought with the hollow? she probably ran away to put the faux body in to appear in school the next day.

[anphorus]

Originally posted by: XanBcoo
Rukia did not give Ichigo her actual zanpakuto. Zangetsu is Ichigo's, and always has been from episode 1. That is as I understand it at least.

The way it comes across in the series seems to be that someone's zanpaktou is a part of themselves, an extension of their soul. A shinigami seems to create their own zanpaktou. Thus, I always thought that the zanpaktou Ichigo used was always zangetsu.

Now the evidence I present here will be from the manga. However, both of these images are from the first chapter, so i think that's okay.

As we all know, soul slayers, unreleased, are pretty much indistinguishable from each other. Now, the one thing that seperates all soul slayers is the decoration on the guard, and it is this that I shall be investigating.

Image the first: Rukia's soul slayer as seen prior to her attempt to transfer her powers to Ichigo.
Here.

Image the second: Ichigo's zanpaktou after said power transference.
Here.

Now, the second image isn't the clearest, I know, but it's the best I could find witout trawling through 60 manga chapters. Now, as you will notice, both guard designs are similar, however, on close inspection there are subtle differences.

1) The "flame" part on the part of Ichigo's sword has a rounded part at the bottom of the flame, which rukia's doesn't (hard to see on this image, but I'm sure it is there. If anyone has a better picture please post it up.) And most noticably:

2) On Rukia's sword the top of the flame points towards the round part of the comma shaped design. On Ichigo's sword the top of the flame points towards the tail part of the comma design.

I know that some people might think this isn't enough, but for me it is irrefutable proof that Ichigo had zangetsu since the very first episode. (Phew, that was a long one)

[Ban Kai]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
I feel like Ichigo had to have gotten some of his powers from his mom. His dad has no abilities whatsoever, yet Ichigo, Karian and Suzu (his sisters) all have some kind of special relation with spirits.

I'm also still one of those "Ichigo is some kind of reincarnation of Kaien Kukaku" believers. The similair appearances, attitudes, along with the fact that both are the only confirmed Hollow/Shinigami hybrids that we know of really make me think Ichigo and Kaien have some connection.

How Urahara knows this (if he knows it), why Rukia was selected (if there is any special reason that it was her) to hide the Crumbling Treasure Ball in, how Aizen got that information are still all very mysterious to me.

If his mother had a lot of spirit power then wouldn't she have kicked Grand Fisher's @$$? I mean even Ichigo with his crappy unknown named sword beat Grand Fisher. I think his mom would be able to if she knew about spirit world like that. I don't think she would have died so easily. And I don't think she saw that girl too, so yeah ~.~.