Intelligent Design and Evolution

[Honoko]

Okay, with whatever US school board news going on, it makes me wonder what exactly is the big deal about teaching intelligent design along with evolution.

I remember in how in grade school or high school I was taught Darwinism as well as the big bang theory. Is the opposition to intelligent design preventing the big bang theory taught in schools? or is the big bang theory not part of the intelligent design opposition? I'm asking exactly why can't you just teach both subjects and let the kids decide for themselves?

I'm just asking this b/c if the big bang theory is NOT being taught in schools anymore (due to the opposition to intelligent design), then I personally think it's totally retarded. The big bang theory is as equally valid a scientific theory as evolution and it's stupid to let politicians dictate what's "real" science and what isn't.

If you actually read this post, you'll notice that I'm not asking for a (flame) war between the advocates of either side here. You'll also note that I want this topic strictly in the realm of scientific theory. Do refrain from pointing to the Bible. There's plenty of theory to go around to support either claim without it. And do try to stay on topic or else I'll ask the mods to lock this thread [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Well? Any thoughts? Comments?

[XanBcoo]

Is the opposition to intelligent design preventing the big bang theory taught in schools? or is the big bang theory not part of the intelligent design opposition?

I don't think the big bang theory has anything to do with Intelligent design. One is pretty scientific and the other is based on creation by a higher power. In any case I'm not sure what to think of this, and I've never really experienced the problem (I've been going to Catholic schools for about 10 years). I do think, though, that it is pretty closed minded to ignore one teaching or the other based on something like politics. Just goes to show how powerful the "separation of Church and State" ideals can be I guess.

[FrogKing]

Originally posted by: Honoko
... what exactly is the big deal about teaching intelligent design along with evolution.

...Is the opposition to intelligent design preventing the big bang theory taught in schools? or is the big bang theory not part of the intelligent design opposition? I'm asking exactly why can't you just teach both subjects and let the kids decide for themselves?

...The big bang theory is as equally valid a scientific theory as evolution..

...realm of scientific theory...

I I came across this post tonight and thought I would try to contribute; however, I am not sure what you are asking? Do you think that evolution and big bang theory are separate theories representing the two sides (i.e. intelligent design, big bang, and scientists, evolution)? Ok, if I have it right and the question is why not teach about evolution AND the big bang theory? I started to write out a very long scientific explanation of how evolution fits INTO the big bang theory, but before I post that I wanted to find out if that is what you meant.

If you merely mean, why isnt intelligent design AND evolution both taught in a science class? If so, then I think it is a question of how 'science' is defined which I could go into how intelligent design deals with a spiritual entity and science deals with model design and experimental rationale. Do they sound the same? Then why teach them in the same classroom? Which is it? or am I totally off base? if so, please elaborate and I'll toss my opinion in.

Oh, I think I got your question. It is the second one; I was just confused for a sec& I thought you treated Darwinism and evolution as the same theory. You meant, that Darwinism fails to explain evolution as a whole and that his ideas have not quite stood the test of time and that scientists have uncovered my flaws or gaps in his theory of why things evolve. Intelligent design offers an explanation to explain away the gaps in Darwinism and redefine evolutionary theory. Rather than fitness driving evolution, in intelligent design a spiritual being designed us to evolve into who we are. Therefore, there is no need for an overall fitness increase to drive evolution. Instead, the universe and time are like a clock&God wound up the clock at the big bang and everything He planned for was played out over time. Our existence and the existence of all the beings before me was apart of some divine plan and that the infinitely complex set of dominos (so-to-speak) was all kick started by an omniscient God. Hmmmm&that is actually a good question, but I think it is (as I stated above) a question of theology or philosophy and NOT science.

If someone (i.e. your kid) wants to ask that kind of question, then reply by telling him or her that, 'That is a great question, son/daughter. If you study hard and get good grades, then you can go off to college. In college, you can take classes that ask that very question and learn all about coming up with your own opinions and think for yourself. 'Until then, I want my high school son or daughter to learn the core curriculum and not tackle theology or philosophy (hell, teenagers have a hard enough time dealing with just who they are questions). Sci

ence attempts to use experimental analysis to test a model. Darwinism is a model; science has challenged this model by observing the world and applying his ideas to the inhabitants (us, plants, animals, bacteria) in an attempt to describe rules that govern the world around us. Not all scientific models are perfect and most all have asterisks in them (i.e. gaps or exceptions in them). Has intelligent design stood up to scientific scrutiny? Ill let you do some more research but the short answer is a resounding no. It doesnt stand to scrutiny under the guidelines that defines science, but that is true for theology.

I think my point is (after all the above babbling) is that science class belongs in high school. In high school, I think it is of extreme value to teach about the use of observation and experimentation to help build the mind of a young adult and help him/her gain a better understanding of how an individual can solve problems. We should definitely encourage kids be inquisitive but there is a place and time for that whether it be in college or not. Until then (and some scientific proof), stick with the science&

<hops off soap box>
Whew, that was a long opinion...sorry to make you read this...


edit: Yeah, what he said above...
edit2: Paragraphs

[ChiaCheese]

i have absolutely no problem with intelligent design being taught in schools. i don't know why anybody would have a problem with ergonomics.

[Lefty]

Well the problem of teaching intelligent design along wiht evolution is that Intelligent design isn't a theory, its an ideology. Thats why. Most of the world looks and laughs at the retard in the corner that america has become. Intelligent design is an insult to every one, because it tries to make people belive that we were made by god, and that they're god is the only god and that we must do what he says and then we're drinking the cool aid to get on the sapce ship to go to heaven. Evolution is a theroy and that changes when more information has been gathered. Intelligent design is set in stone never weavering to the pilling evidence that proves evolution. Can't we all agree that god created the unverse but not the things in it. The bible freaks are happy and the liberals can shut up.

[el_boss]

I have never heard of this "intelligent design", but from what I have read in this thread it seems to be an idae that a "higher" being has created the universe or some such. I am quite baffeled that this is taught as "fact" in american schools. Here in sweden we learned these things in religion-history and ordinary history, and that they were things that people believed in in the past.

[basey44]

lol well its simple here, we're not allowed to be taught evolution in highschool, unless your doing biology i guess.
i guess they figure they cant teach how the world started stuff cos they dont wanna get in trouble from either side. but u'd be taught the religious version in religion class. But not allowed in history class, thats the main thing [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: basey44
lol well its simple here, we're not allowed to be taught evolution in highschool, unless your doing biology i guess.
i guess they figure they cant teach how the world started stuff cos they dont wanna get in trouble from either side. but u'd be taught the religious version in religion class. But not allowed in history class, thats the main thing [img][/img]

So they can't even teach evolution as a theory in american schools except in biology? What about other religions than christianity and different cultures, is that prohibited as well? It seems like the american school system is set on giving the stidents a extremly biased view of the world.

[basey44]

im in australia [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[KitKat]

First of all, el_boss, if you'd clicked basey's profile, you'd have seen that he lives in Australia. Not everyone here is from the US. Second, this discussion is about the teaching of intelligent design in schools along with evolution. It's an ongoing debate in the US right now. Some advocates want to have intelligent design briefly presented as another viable theory, whereas others feel that this violates the separation of church and state.

@ Lefty: I find it a bit hurtful that you view people of my faith in such a derogatory manner. And I think perhaps you misunderstand intelligent design. I actually never heard the term until this whole kafuffle with the US school board started. But from what I've read, it seems to be a broad theory since it advocates no particular religion but just proposes the idea that some higher being created the universe and aided its development.

What is science? Science is how we have defined it: It is what we can see, what we can measure, what we can touch, what we can recreate. In my view, science has become our society's god. We worship science because it is perfect and flawless. Everything can be proven or disproven. We must have facts and proof in order to be convinced of anything. The problem when we start to talk about the spiritual realm is that it doesn't fit nicely into our little science box. But here is my question: Just because a theory does not fit into what we have defined to be science, does that reduce its probability of being true?

Anyways, back to the question at hand. I don't see a problem with intelligent design being taught in schools. The legislature only specifies one paragraph, whereas I imagine that evolutionary theory will still be taught in great detail. Kids are smart, they can make their own decisions. Do you think that by exposing them to a point of view that is held by more than half the world will confuse them and make them less able to make rational choices? I really don't think it's a big deal, and all those US officials need to not get their panties in a knot and chill out.

[el_boss]

Originally posted by: basey44
im in australia [img][/img]

I see... but they have a similiar system in america as well, right?

[Honoko]

@Lefty: are you saying that intelligent design is not a theory but an ideology and has nothing to do with the big bang theory? I feel like I have to disagree (which is why I wanted someone more knowledgable than me to answer the question of whether or not big bang is part of intelligent design or not). The thing is, in the big bang theory, scientists think that the universe started off as nothing and then suddenly exploded into existence. If you actually do your research (the objective kind, stay away from those rants from the advocates), there is a lot of evidence that *supports* this theory but not actual proof (hence the word, theory =P). And if the big bang theory (which is, btw, held as a valid theory in the scientific community) actually holds, it implies that something (or, if I'm permitted to mention: someONE) actually *caused* that explosion. That is, at least, why I'm wondering whether or not big bang is part of intelligent design in the first place.

And if it is, then I find it quite disappointing that the US schools are instructed to not teach it. It's so unreasonable to be so phobic of religion that it actually gets in the way of teaching actual science. That whole seperation of church and state thing is beginning to get out of hand.

Oh, and Frogking? Next time I recommend you use paragraphs [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img] It's easier on the eyes hehe

[FrogKing]

Yeah, after I looked at my post I was like 'ouch a little chunky'...

Anyhow, if you look at the amazing equation E=mc2 and apply it to the singularity termed the 'big bang' then you might get a better sense of time and space and what happened at the beginning. However, science hasn't been able to provide a concrete theory of why it started and what was there before (how can you have a 'before' when you don't have time/light yet?). Intelligent design merely fills that void and offers the simplest explanation (re: Occam's Razor about simple explanations), but should we teach it in science without it being tested by the rules of science?

Evolution has withstood quite a bit of testing and the gaps/exceptions in the model have been exposed. It is not a perfect model, but it fits well and until another theory can supplant it and explain (thru careful analysis) what evolution could not...it should stand. Science is about understanding and questioning the world around us; it is not about applying convenient ideas to explain the as-yet unexplainable without withstanding close analysis.

You've started a nice little discussion Honoko...good luck and I'll check back a little later to see if any other replies.

[masamuneehs]

You're going to believe what you want to believe, no matter what you were taught...

We're talking about matters that I honestly don't see having a very big impact on people's lives in today's world. So maybe A Supreme Being created us according to some blueprint, or maybe we evolved ala Darwin. Does it make a difference? It still doesn't answer the great philisophical question "Why are we here?" or, the more practical version of that question, "What should we do with the time/abilities we have here?" So it seems like a large waste of time to dispute such a thing, as it most likely will escape human comprehension anyhow...

[Assertn]

Don't make generalizations about the US school system. The school system is more or less divided into their respective counties and I'm pretty sure they each have a certain degree of control over what classes are taught in school. For example I've never had an evolution nor an intelligent design class K-12

[The Heretic Azazel]

The reason is that those of faith who are religious want to validate their own opinions and try to base facts on their own faith, which is a paradox of faith, something that exists because there are no facts to support it. I think intelligent design is a joke, personally. That is, trying to teach it, not believing it, because there's nothing to back it up.

I mean, if we teach intelligent design in school, what the hell difference does it make if what we learn all through school is right or wrong? Any teachers could give bullshit crackpot ideas and pass them off as valid theories.

You've all come from dust, and back to dust shall turn.. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
We're talking about matters that I honestly don't see having a very big impact on people's lives in today's world. So maybe A Supreme Being created us according to some blueprint, or maybe we evolved ala Darwin. Does it make a difference? It still doesn't answer the great philisophical question "Why are we here?" or, the more practical version of that question, "What should we do with the time/abilities we have here?" So it seems like a large waste of time to dispute such a thing, as it most likely will escape human comprehension anyhow...

Even if you accept that fact, the point is that schools are going to try and teach the theories of our origin (It's probably along the same lines as the reason for teaching History). The different groups are not exactly arguing how it happened in this case, just which version of creation they don't want their children to be taught. You're right, people will beleive what they will, but that won't stop others complaining about the school system because it seems to advocate one side or the other.

I am quite baffeled that this is taught as "fact" in american schools

Probably for the same reasons that many Scientific theories are taught in schools. It almost depends on which side you look at it from. I've never heard of Intelligent Design before this topic, but it is very probable that it includes some rational theories. Quoting Kitkat's question, "Just because a theory does not fit into what we have defined to be science, does that reduce its probability of being true?" I'm gonna say of course it doesn't. Science is just an attempt to explain the world. Intelligent Design just seems to do it in another manner, like FrogKing explained.

I think there's no problem at all teaching both theories, and some people (like Politicians and overly concerned parents) are being way too sensitive about it.

[Lefty]

@ Kit Kat: Sorry if I came off hurtful but this subject always gets me fired up. But the Version that most groups want taght is the 'GOD' version. When you have this stuff shoved down your throwt by Ignorent evangelicals you tend to get really irritated really fast, which i did get and i'm sorry if i offended you.

@ honoko: I never mentioned the big bang theroy because I'm more concerned on the subject of that intelligent dessign was goingot make it's way into the school system.

[Nin10doman]

I have no problem with Intelligent Design being taught in schools...But I do have a problem with it being taught in SCIENCE classes. If suddenly in Biology books, right after the evolution chapter, they had a section for Intelligent Design, I'd probably be a little ticked.

Other people did pretty well explaining why this Intelligent Design idea is not a science, so I won't go into that.

And I really hate how just a little bit of whining can get something like this started..."Oh noes a couple people are offended by ID not being taught in schools, let's start a nationwide debate..."

:\

[FrogKing]

@masamuneehs: "You're going to believe what you want to believe, no matter what you were taught..." I wish that was true, but unfortunately I don't think that is the case for most people. I think the overall goal of education is to give humans examples and tools for thinking for themselves and to question what we see/hear. However, I know that during my teenage years I didn't know how to really think for myself an that it wasn't until I began to apply what I was taught in both a college and job setting that I really started to stake my own beliefs. It was the foundation of my education that helped make an impact on HOW I interpret the world around me. If you don't think that what you're taught can make an impact just ask Lefty and his views on religious schooling at a young age...

@Heretic Azazel: I agree mostly with what you said, but I think that there IS a place for religious study...IN a religious studies course. I think as humans we should explore the possibilities of alternate explanations. It's just that those don't always need to be sold a science or fact; but rather, I a theological or philosophical course setting.

@XanBcoo: see my comments for Heretic. Science and theology have their respective places in education NOT both in a science class which I think is what Honoko was bring to our attention.

By the way, if we are on the subject you should check out this 'new' intelligent design theory...

Open letter to Kansas school board

I TOO AM A BELIEVER IN THE FLYING SPAGETTI MONSTER THEORY; THEREFORE IT MUST BE TAUGHT IN SCHOOL!

WWFSMD