Sasuke VS Neji

[heero]

Originally posted by: darkmetal505

ah, the argument wasnt about that. It was about if naruto beat neji or not. Or rather if neji got "owned".

ic...the last time i checked the topic was Sasuke VS Neji. Also, my point still stands that Kishimoto's plot devices has nothing to do with what the characters are capable of (as shown in my naruto vs sasuke example). Just because Kishimoto made Naruto win does not prove that Neji's abilities are inferior to Naruto's. Like wise, just because Kishimoto made Sasuke win does not prove that Sasuke is stronger than Naruto or Chidori is stronger than Rasengan or Curse seal is better than Kyuubi powers. Therefore, you can't say Neji was owned because most people define the word as:

Originally posted by: Strider
I take "owned" as I would take someone saying "blowout."

Like Smokey's, "You got knocked the FUUUUUUUCK OUT~!!"

As in, no contest.

Now linking this back to the topic, just because Kishimoto will probably make Sasuke win in a fight between him and Neji does not mean that Sasuke is stronger than Neji. When we make predictions here we want to stick with the logics. Naruto being able to blow a big hole in a water tank but not able to blast through head protector is not.

[darkmetal505]

Originally posted by: heero

Originally posted by: darkmetal505

ah, the argument wasnt about that. It was about if naruto beat neji or not. Or rather if neji got "owned".

ic...the last time i checked the topic was Sasuke VS Neji. Also, my point still stands that Kishimoto's plot devices has nothing to do with what the characters are capable of (as shown in my naruto vs sasuke example). Just because Kishimoto made Naruto win does not prove that Neji's abilities are inferior to Naruto's.

It was relevant, at that time.

[Jadugar]

@KENSEE : Welcome to this thread.
@Strider : You should be doing this.

Originally posted by: Kensee
You made me do this.

I like you but you choose the wrong side.
You have brought it on yourself.

I think you failed to grasp the essence of this thread. It's a battle of the strongest. A fight between two elite ninjas. The struggle to be the last man standing alive.

NOT

I like Neji. Neji was an idiot but he is learning. He is not an idiot any more. That's why I like him. He is so cool. He has white eyes. They are very nice to look at.


Go make a Neji Fan (gay) Cub/thread.

Originally posted by: Kensee
I don't care who is the strongest

Why bother voting for Neji then. Oh I know you like him.

Originally posted by: Kensee
See you 360 then dance

WTF

Originally posted by: Kensee

Naruto: I'm sorry ...
Sakura: You sliced his head open?
Naruto: I ..
Sakura: NARUTO YOU PROMISED!
Naruto: Punk had it comming to him
Sakura: Say what?
Naruto: You heard me bizatch, take this (Kage no Justsu + ransangen)

BAM

Naruto: Lets cheeze it Choji.
Choiji: B - B - Q !

Leave this to Terra.

Originally posted by: Kensee
If sasuke acted tough and didn't wear the head protector like naruto told him too, HE WOULD BE DEAD!

Are you on some kind of drugs?

Naruto only scratched his protector. It wasnt a gash. Naruto used the word, "scratch".

BTW, that metal wasnt made out of super alloy titanium.

Originally posted by: Strider
I just noticed you revised your post and put this in there. Heh. Bastard.

My trap worked. You came back from the land of dead.

Originally posted by: Strider
Our champion, Neji, should be the focal point of our discussion

The focal point is the real champ, Sasuke. Not a so called champ, Neji.

Latest vote : Kensee

Originally posted by: Kensee
Meh vote, el Neji.

UPDATED SCORE

SASUKE : 16
[ Assertn, Barles, SFreedomZGMFx20a, chet_chetty, Mut@chi, Nests, XanBcoo, coud656, Phoenix20578, Shuurai, 6Zabuza9, Chaoskiddo, darkmetal505, Edort4, Ban Kai, Zein ]

NEJI : 14
[DrCitan, Heero, Terra, Dark Maginn, Mite Gai, Turkish-S, Naruto_RNG, Dezalanel, Vasco, Heretic-Azazel, Shinda, Jurojin, Y, Kensee ]

[vasco]

For The Heretic Azazel:
I move to Marion AR, 10 miles away from Memphis

cont' my post, even double post, sorry

9> Speed - Neji
How to know how fast can Neji be, here is example: Lee do not have a chance to win neji until Lee open his five gate (with high speed close combat combo). It means Neji can at least as fast as Lee before open his gate.
Prove: ep49 8m49s, ep50 5m18

10> Speed - Sasuke
Lee: "But it looks like you consume a lot of stamina to maintain that speed"
Again, Sasuke has speed, but he is not durable... If he keep with Lee's speed, he will run out of stamina in no time. So, if Neji and Sasuke both fight in Lee speed, Neji has upper hand.
Prove: 66-67 16m8s

11> close combat skill - Neji
Sakura: "Hyuuga style"
Lee: "Konoha's strongest hand-to-hand combat style."
Neji is good at close combat, There is no way Sasuke could win the strongest hand-to-hand combat style, right?
Prove: ep 46 16m10s

12> Close combat skill - Sasuke
Sasuke only has 1 combat skill, Lion combo. And he 'steal' it from Lee. If Neji could win Lee's combo (before open gate), could the same skill work on Neji?

13> Defence: Neji vs Sasuke
Tenten: "Neji's Byakugan's maximum field of vision is almost 360 degrees, and he detects all enemy attacks with it."
... Kaiten ...
Tenten: "In other words, its power is even greater than Gaara's and is another kind of absolute defense"
We do know what Neji has, what about Sasuke...? NOTHING!
ep61 5m23s, 6m43s

14> Long Distant - no result...
If both Neji or Sasuke play long distant instead of close combat, endless battle. Why? are you just keep thowing knife, fireball (sasuke) and so only? There is no fatal hit can do for both Sasuke and Neji, so forget about Long Distant fight.
(Personal opinion, no need to prove)

15> It hurts - even just one hit, not 64 hits
Kakashi: "There is no way to train your internal organs. If you get hit, no matter how tough you arem it'll be fatal"
So, if anyone get hit by Neji, even just once, we could say Neji win almost for sure... no matter that person is Naruto or Neji.
ep46 18m18s

16> Sharingan - Useless
Sharingan funcation: Steal skill, prediction
All Neji skill are Bloodline, no way to steal
Prediction only work if Sasuke can see Neji. If Neji use smoke bomb or out of his sign, no use. No matter it is 2 dot or 3 dot or 1000 dot. (just like Zabuza using mist to blind Kakashi, and it is fair since all Ninja can use smoke bomb) But Byakugan can see ^_^
Prove ep15

17> Blood Seal Lv 2
Again and again, people too focus on it power, but forget it drawback. If Sasuke use it, he got to finish the fight fast, or he will use up all his Chakra, or lose his own mind. Sasuke won't use it until it is the final blast... right?

18> Naruto Hit Neji from ground at ep62
Actually, it doesn't make sence, because Neji has 360 vision, and Naruto is not in his blind point, so there is no way Neji could not 'see' the real Naruto. By conclusion, story require...
(Personal opinion, no need to prove)

19> Neji lose to Naruto
It is because this anime is called "Naruto" not "Neji" and story required Neji to lose to prove something. It is not because Naruto really stronger than Neji. By the way, Neji did not intent to kill Naruto until to end, if he do so, Naruto may die already.
(Personal opinion, no need to prove)

20> Release chakra block - blood seal 2
Try this:
No blood seal > sasuke get hit by 64 > blood seal Lv 1 > Neji use 64 again > blood seal Lv 2 > blood seal Lv 2 > neji hit again > oop... no blood seal Lv 3, game over.
For sure, i assume Neji hit sasuke everytime. But on the other hand, i just want to say, if Sasuke get hit 64 hits when Blood Seal Lv 2, there is no other way for him to recovery his chakra.
(Personal opinion, no need to prove)

21> Chidori - work?
Sasuke can use 2 x chidori only, we know that. and he need to hit the non-moving person. Tell me how Sasuke can make Neji not to move?
(Personal opinion, no need to prove)


OK, overall, By all 21 points I wrote (may be more later), Neji has much upper hand than Sasuke.
i> Neji just need to hit Sasuke once for internal organs damage
ii> Sasuke no absolute defence to block Neji
iii> Sasuke won't use Chidori until finish move.
So, tell me how can Sasuke win? Sasuke fans, bring it on.

[Jadugar]

Originally posted by: vasco
All Neji skill are Bloodline, no way to steal

Wrong

Originally posted by: vasco
Blood Seal Lv 2

Its Cursed Seal lv2

Originally posted by: vasco
It is because this anime is called "Naruto" not "Neji" and story required Neji to lose to prove something. It is not because Naruto really stronger than Neji.

Yes, the fight proved that Naruto is stronger than Neji. Thats why the anime is called Naruto, moron.

Originally posted by: vasco

Tenten says this, Tenten says that.

What does fucking Tenten know. She is fucking useless.

Originally posted by: vasco
Tell me how Sasuke can make Neji not to move?

Show him a picture of vasco(his gay lover). Easy.


Also in all those simulations and calculations you never mentioned, Windmill triplr blades controlled by sharingan. Did I miss it or are you being biased and didnt include it in your fight simulator.

[vasco]

Originally posted by: Jadugar

Originally posted by: vasco
All Neji skill are Bloodline, no way to steal

Wrong

ok, not all, like the thowing knife one... but you know what we mean!!! otherwise, please name it.

Originally posted by: Jadugar

Originally posted by: vasco
Blood Seal Lv 2

Its Cursed Seal lv2

ok, my bad, not a big deal, you know what I mean!

Originally posted by: Jadugar

Originally posted by: vasco
It is because this anime is called "Naruto" not "Neji" and story required Neji to lose to prove something. It is not because Naruto really stronger than Neji.

Yes, the fight proved that Naruto is stronger than Neji. Thats why the anime is called Naruto, moron.

Side topic, talk with you later ...

Originally posted by: Jadugar

Originally posted by: vasco

Tenten says this, Tenten says that.

What does fucking Tenten know. She is fucking useless.

That is what i quote in the anime, even she is stupid, what she (actually is writer) say is still correct. Neji is strong!

Originally posted by: Jadugar

Originally posted by: vasco
Tell me how Sasuke can make Neji not to move?

Show him a picture of vasco(his gay lover). Easy.

That mean we do the same to sasuke by showing your picture(sasuke gay lover)? then get 64 hits, game over.

Originally posted by: Jadugar
Also in all those simulations and calculations you never mentioned, Windmill triplr blades controlled by sharingan. Did I miss it or are you being biased and didnt include it in your fight simulator.

[/quote]

No problem, I add 'Windmill triplr blades' next time when i write... but it won't work on Neji neither because of Byakugan view. (more detail later.) by the way, if you know more skill that Sasuke has, write now, i don't want to keep write point post by post.

By the way, the things i just wrote are not simulation any more, all of them are the fact from anime with proves.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Vasco's pretty wise, don't let him embarass you Jadugar!

As for the bloodline, the only bloodline Neji has is Byakugan, which allows him to have the 359 degree vision and hit the tenketsu. So, even if Sharingan could copy the 64 palms, he wouldn't know where the tenketsu is.

[elmojo]

*************************************
**there are SPOILERS in this reply**
*************************************

neji vs sasuke is more like it

lets see the difference between the two when it comes to achievements, neji so far didnt resort to any third party power (unlike sasuke), neji has become a jounin (whats sasuke done so far? nothing) when neji and gai sensei and ten ten and rock lee are in a team, its not team gai anymore neji is the one who expresses more leadership style and he is a true genius, gai would have been lost without him

when the sound kidnapped sasuke, neji was the only one who fought without any sort of third party enhancment and won against his own weakness (sasuke just got brutally clapped and kidnapped), neji has already demonstrated he can fight against orichimaru's seals during that mission

naruto did beat neji , that being said..

how many times has naruto saved sasuke? oh what? enough times to traumatize the poor kid so he could go running to orichimaru

when it comes hand to hand combat, neji wins
when it becomes to skill developement (when i say skill development i dont mean stealing skills , i mean actually developing them), neji wins ~ hes a true genius, what did sasuke learn so far? lion hit combo ooh deadly, fire breath? yea when did that become useful, hes done more damage throwing a shuriken than using skills

the only "advantage" sasuke has over neji is his new seal, but then again that thing eats your body away, the way i see it sasuke is going to need it on more than just neji, there are more characters that rival / are equal to sasuke than neji,

when it comes to actually facing an enemy, neji is way more tactical and analytical ~ have you seen what sasuke does? his emotions take over and he screams and does a chidori , way to go dumbass i'm sure that will help you out against itachi .. oh wait no it didnt he got tossed aside like an empty pack of smokes, the only time sasuke actually showed some potential was against gaara, and gaara put him in his place after awhile too

I really can't see any scenario where i would choose sasuke over neji,

i'd would even let neji to babysit sasuke, hes not worth neji's attention

i think potentially sakura could be stronger than sasuke, atleast she beat an akatsuki, sasuke got scolded by an akatsuki member instead and was unconsious for a few days after that

with all the stipulations that were given in this topic,
winner: neji hands down

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: vasco
5> 64 hits - damage
Lee: "No, it hurts even if it just nicks you" (about Hinata attack to Neji)
Gai: "Hyuuga attempts to damage the chakra circulatory system inside the enemy, AND destory the internal organs"
Why all the people always think 64 hits need to attack chakra point, instead of internal organs? If Sasuke really block 64 hits, his arms will be damage (both chakra system and muscle), which mean dead meat! So, if Sasuke cannot avoid all attack, even just block 1 hit on his finger (he cannot form seal ^_^), can he keep fighting?
Prove: ep46 17m28s / 18m02s

64 hands of hakke is different than jyuuken. 64 hands immobolize the enemy, jyuuken damages their organs. You're mixing the quotes and logistics.

9> Speed - Neji
How to know how fast can Neji be, here is example: Lee do not have a chance to win neji until Lee open his five gate (with high speed close combat combo). It means Neji can at least as fast as Lee before open his gate.
Prove: ep49 8m49s, ep50 5m18

You're just formulating a theory based on careful dialogue nitpicking and passing it as a proof. Neji never trained in Lee's taijutsu style, nor has he ever trained with leg weights. I would be surprised if Neji was as fast as lee with his weights ON. He's a defensive type, not offensive...it would be meaningless for him to train for speed.

10> Speed - Sasuke
Lee: "But it looks like you consume a lot of stamina to maintain that speed"
Again, Sasuke has speed, but he is not durable... If he keep with Lee's speed, he will run out of stamina in no time. So, if Neji and Sasuke both fight in Lee speed, Neji has upper hand.
Prove: 66-67 16m8s

Neji doesn't fight in lee speed. And that was only a month after learning lee's taijutsu. Im sure at this point in the series, Sasuke's stamina has increased since then.

11> close combat skill - Neji
Sakura: "Hyuuga style"
Lee: "Konoha's strongest hand-to-hand combat style."
Neji is good at close combat, There is no way Sasuke could win the strongest hand-to-hand combat style, right?
Prove: ep 46 16m10s

I'm sure the "Level 2 Curse Seal" doesn't factor into the list of KONOHA hand-to-hand combat styles. Besides, taijutsu is taijutsu. If there was going to be a quote about "Konoha's strongest tai/ninjutsu style" then Chidori would've beaten jyuuken.

12> Close combat skill - Sasuke
Sasuke only has 1 combat skill, Lion combo. And he 'steal' it from Lee. If Neji could win Lee's combo (before open gate), could the same skill work on Neji?

Huh? 1 combat skill? I don't even know what that means....
Sasuke has more moves than we are even familiar with. This is why he is able to pull something like "sharingan-controlled shuriken blades" without any prior indication of him knowing such a move. I don't even understand the second part of that line. I'm sure grammar would solve that problem though.

13> Defence: Neji vs Sasuke
Tenten: "Neji's Byakugan's maximum field of vision is almost 360 degrees, and he detects all enemy attacks with it."
... Kaiten ...
Tenten: "In other words, its power is even greater than Gaara's and is another kind of absolute defense"
We do know what Neji has, what about Sasuke...? NOTHING!
ep61 5m23s, 6m43s

I think not knowing what Sasuke has gives him more of an advantage than anything else, but that's just me. Gaara's absolute defense was straight up pierced by sasuke's chidori. Can anyone say for sure that the kaiten could block it?

15> It hurts - even just one hit, not 64 hits
Kakashi: "There is no way to train your internal organs. If you get hit, no matter how tough you arem it'll be fatal"
So, if anyone get hit by Neji, even just once, we could say Neji win almost for sure... no matter that person is Naruto or Neji.
ep46 18m18s

refer to my response to point #5

16> Sharingan - Useless
Sharingan funcation: Steal skill, prediction
All Neji skill are Bloodline, no way to steal
Prediction only work if Sasuke can see Neji. If Neji use smoke bomb or out of his sign, no use. No matter it is 2 dot or 3 dot or 1000 dot. (just like Zabuza using mist to blind Kakashi, and it is fair since all Ninja can use smoke bomb) But Byakugan can see ^_^
Prove ep15

Are you implying that Neji is going to sit there, spinning around while throwing smoke bombs all day? What would neji do after he throws a smoke bomb? Pretty much all his attacks are counter-attacks, so unless sasuke just charges in, then I don't see the point.

17> Blood Seal Lv 2
Again and again, people too focus on it power, but forget it drawback. If Sasuke use it, he got to finish the fight fast, or he will use up all his Chakra, or lose his own mind. Sasuke won't use it until it is the final blast... right?

"Final blast" is still part of the fight. And it's usually the part where the winner is determined too. What's your point?

18> Naruto Hit Neji from ground at ep62
Actually, it doesn't make sence, because Neji has 360 vision, and Naruto is not in his blind point, so there is no way Neji could not 'see' the real Naruto. By conclusion, story require...
(Personal opinion, no need to prove)

I'll respond anyway. Neji couldve seen naruto underground, but he wasnt using his byakugan at the time. If you were neji, and had your chakra almost depleted, and saw an unconscious naruto lying in a crater, would your instinct be to search underground for kage bunshins?

21> Chidori - work?
Sasuke can use 2 x chidori only, we know that. and he need to hit the non-moving person. Tell me how Sasuke can make Neji not to move?
(Personal opinion, no need to prove)

First of all, sasuke used 3 chidoris against Naruto. The lv 2 seal gave him enough for a 3rd.
Second of all, who says the target can't be moving? The whole purpose of the sharingan in conjunction with the chidori is so it can anticipate movement and act accordingly.

[Tinks]

I would think the fact that Neji doesnt train alone, would give him the advantage as of now
Also I would assume Sasuke is distracted by his current problems to even train on the same level as Neji
Also the fact that Neji is still continuing his missions and having new experiences with problem solving that Sasuke wont get anymore, is another advantage
So Neji would naturally have the upper hand since he has more resources and better chances to train

[Strider]

Originally posted by: Jadugar
@Strider : You should be doing this.

I should be doing what .. ? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
64 hands of hakke is different than jyuuken. 64 hands immobolize the enemy, jyuuken damages their organs. You're mixing the quotes and logistics.

Word.

This is true. 64 Hands of Hakke is different, but still a form of Jyuuken. Jyuuken is where chakra is emitted with each strike with intent to damage an enemy's internal organs. I think we can all agree on this, considering I'm sure that's an accurate enough description or match to what's been said about it.

However, 64 Hands of Hakke is a modification of Jyuuken, if you will. It's more refined, and utilized to precisely damage and affect the myriad tenketsu. While not fatal, it might as well be, considering it can completely deprive you from accessing your chakra, or forcibly cause you to instantly exert all of your energy and expel your chakra reserves.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
You're just formulating a theory based on careful dialogue nitpicking and passing it as a proof. Neji never trained in Lee's taijutsu style, nor has he ever trained with leg weights. I would be surprised if Neji was as fast as lee with his weights ON. He's a defensive type, not offensive...it would be meaningless for him to train for speed.

This stuff isn't real. Dialogue and viewing is all we have. From that, we gather the truth and disperse as proof / fact.

I disagree. I believe Neji is as fast as Lee, which is why Gai continuously taught him (or allowed him) to continue opening gates to push his limits in speed. Neji's speed, as well as his speed with registering everything that is occurring around him and act towards anything in whatever given direction, must be great. If Neji's speed with his own body, as well as utilizing the Byakugan, was not anything remarkable, why bother going beyond Omote Renge?

Also, Neji is a strategist. He is neither defensive or primarily offensive. He quickly adapts to his situation, and never enters a battle with all his skills at the ready. He tests the waters, then proceeds accordingly from there.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Neji doesn't fight in lee speed. And that was only a month after learning lee's taijutsu. Im sure at this point in the series, Sasuke's stamina has increased since then.

You need stamina to move at such speeds, and there have not been many situations or instances of time where Sasuke would have such time to condition himself to moving faster, or even becoming capable of maintaining the initial speed boost he was taught.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
I'm sure the "Level 2 Curse Seal" doesn't factor into the list of KONOHA hand-to-hand combat styles. Besides, taijutsu is taijutsu. If there was going to be a quote about "Konoha's strongest tai/ninjutsu style" then Chidori would've beaten jyuuken.

I don't think "Curse Seal" is categorized as it's own, individual fighting style.

Taijutsu is Taijutsu. Jyuuken is the strongest Taijutsu style.

Ninjutsu is Ninjutsu. We know it's not, but we'll say - Chidori is the strongest Ninjutsu technique.

You just gave us apples and oranges. What were you trying to say? Your point eluded me.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
I think not knowing what Sasuke has gives him more of an advantage than anything else, but that's just me. Gaara's absolute defense was straight up pierced by sasuke's chidori. Can anyone say for sure that the kaiten could block it?

Where does Sasuke have the advantage, in this situation? Sasuke knows nothing of the Hyuuga, and has never seen Neji fight. Neji watched his battles, though.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Are you implying that Neji is going to sit there, spinning around while throwing smoke bombs all day? What would neji do after he throws a smoke bomb? Pretty much all his attacks are counter-attacks, so unless sasuke just charges in, then I don't see the point.

You seriously think Jyuuken techniques are solely counter-attacks, or defensively-based? If there's an opening - BOOM! There goes one of your organs. It's really that simple. Especially if Sasuke is blinded, by vasco's example of smoke bombs.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
"Final blast" is still part of the fight. And it's usually the part where the winner is determined too. What's your point?

Again, in regards to the culmination of this battle ..

The final blast would be Neji's palm pressing against the left breast of Sasuke, chakra pouring forth through the traitor's flesh, emitting through the bastard child's back, simultaneous to the ventricles and auricles and atriums and every other part of the heart exploding.

.. The pre-final blast would be Sasuke's arm slicing through Neji's chest like a warm knife through butter, with an uber Chidori.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
I'll respond anyway. Neji couldve seen naruto underground, but he wasnt using his byakugan at the time. If you were neji, and had your chakra almost depleted, and saw an unconscious naruto lying in a crater, would your instinct be to search underground for kage bunshins?

Agreed.

Seriously.

You put your guns away, when you're confident of victory.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
First of all, sasuke used 3 chidoris against Naruto. The lv 2 seal gave him enough for a 3rd.
Second of all, who says the target can't be moving? The whole purpose of the sharingan in conjunction with the chidori is so it can anticipate movement and act accordingly.

Sasuke has to stay away. There is no way he can remain close, and not be touched once, which is all Jyuuken needs.

And, I don't see how victory can be possible from such a distance. Impatience, plus irritation of Neji being better than he expected will cause an abrupt change into the Curse Seal form, and with his energy peaking (and also depreciating from being in that state), he'll go in for the kill. And, succeed - but also die in the process.


UPDATED SCORE

S A S U K E : 15
[ Assertn, Barles, SFreedomZGMFx20a, chet_chetty, Nests, XanBcoo, coud656, Phoenix20578, Shuurai, 6Zabuza9, Chaoskiddo, darkmetal505, Edort4, Ban Kai, Zein ]

N E J I : 15
[ DrCitan, Heero, Terra, Dark Maginn, Mite Gai, Turkish-S, Naruto_RNG, Dezalanel, Vasco, Heretic-Azazel, Shinda, Jurojin, Y, Kensee, elmojo ]

It seems it's a tie. Mut's vote was removed since well, he's banned .. he doesn't count anymore. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

.. What .. ?! I was kidding. Shit. Correct scoreboard is below. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]


UPDATED SCORE

S A S U K E : 16
[ Assertn, Barles, SFreedomZGMFx20a, chet_chetty, Mut@chi, Nests, XanBcoo, coud656, Phoenix20578, Shuurai, 6Zabuza9, Chaoskiddo, darkmetal505, Edort4, Ban Kai, Zein ]

N E J I : 16
[DrCitan, Heero, Terra, Dark Maginn, Mite Gai, Turkish-S, Naruto_RNG, Dezalanel, Vasco, Heretic-Azazel, Shinda, Jurojin, Y, Kensee, elmojo, Tinks ]


EDIT: Added Tinks. Good man. Level playing field, all over again. Wake up, Jad'.

[Assertn]

damn, sniped by Strider....

64 Hands of Hakke is a modification of Jyuuken, if you will. It's more refined, and utilized to precisely damage and affect the myriad tenketsu. While not fatal, it might as well be, considering it can completely deprive you from accessing your chakra, or forcibly cause you to instantly exert all of your energy and expel your chakra reserves.

In all honesty....I dont know why anyone would prefer to use 64 HOH over jyuuken. One immobilizes, the other can instantly kill. ::shrug::

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
You're just formulating a theory based on careful dialogue nitpicking and passing it as a proof. Neji never trained in Lee's taijutsu style, nor has he ever trained with leg weights. I would be surprised if Neji was as fast as lee with his weights ON. He's a defensive type, not offensive...it would be meaningless for him to train for speed.

This stuff isn't real. Dialogue and viewing is all we have. From that, we gather the truth and disperse as proof / fact.

I disagree. I believe Neji is as fast as Lee, which is why Gai continuously taught him (or allowed him) to continue opening gates to push his limits in speed. Neji's speed, as well as his speed with registering everything that is occurring around him and act towards anything in whatever given direction, must be great. If Neji's speed with his own body, as well as utilizing the Byakugan, was not anything remarkable, why bother going beyond Omote Renge?

Also, Neji is a strategist. He is neither defensive or primarily offensive. He quickly adapts to his situation, and never enters a battle with all his skills at the ready. He tests the waters, then proceeds accordingly from there.

I'm aware that dialogue and viewing is all we have. I use that to prove my points as well. But there's only a certain point you can get before you're taking things too literally, out of the context that the writer intended.

Any accusation of Neji being as fast as Lee is pure speculation, and only supported by Gai saying that Lee's gate unlocking was the requirement to beating Neji. Note that this correlation does NOT mean that Neji is as fast as Lee prior to unlocking gates. Speed isnt the only thing capable of countering speed. If this was the case, then Kisame wouldn't have been kicking Gai's ass most of their rematch in the manga. When Lee acknowledged that Sasuke's assimilation of his taijutsu + doujutsu made him superior to himself, I did not feel that he could make the same statement about Neji's taijutsu + doujutsu. And, as Gai put it, Lee and Neji are different types of taijutsu masters. Lee's focus is external damage through speed and power, but Neji is all about chakra control and accuracy. Speed is required for lee, but not for Neji. Just because they are on the same team doesn't mean that they even remotely train in the same methods.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Neji doesn't fight in lee speed. And that was only a month after learning lee's taijutsu. Im sure at this point in the series, Sasuke's stamina has increased since then.

You need stamina to move at such speeds, and there have not been many situations or instances of time where Sasuke would have such time to condition himself to moving faster, or even becoming capable of maintaining the initial speed boost he was taught.

He didn't seem to be gasping for breath keeping up with kyubi naruto. And kyubi naruto is quite a speed demon in his own right.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
I'm sure the "Level 2 Curse Seal" doesn't factor into the list of KONOHA hand-to-hand combat styles. Besides, taijutsu is taijutsu. If there was going to be a quote about "Konoha's strongest tai/ninjutsu style" then Chidori would've beaten jyuuken.

I don't think "Curse Seal" is categorized as it's own, individual fighting style.

Taijutsu is Taijutsu. Jyuuken is the strongest Taijutsu style.

Ninjutsu is Ninjutsu. We know it's not, but we'll say - Chidori is the strongest Ninjutsu technique.

You just gave us apples and oranges. What were you trying to say? Your point eluded me.

heh, lets not talk semantics about a response to a barely legible opening statement.
The point I was making was that it doesnt matter if jyuuken is the strongest taijutsu if its paired up against a melee ninjutsu like chidori.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
I think not knowing what Sasuke has gives him more of an advantage than anything else, but that's just me. Gaara's absolute defense was straight up pierced by sasuke's chidori. Can anyone say for sure that the kaiten could block it?

Where does Sasuke have the advantage, in this situation? Sasuke knows nothing of the Hyuuga, and has never seen Neji fight. Neji watched his battles, though.

I'm pretty sure the guy meant us the viewers not knowing what sasuke has, not the characters in the series. I like how you didn't respond to my accusation that chidori can probably pierce through kaiten though.

I'm not really sure why clans wouldn't know much about each other. It's actually kinda dumb to not know about the aburame clan and the hyuga clan, since they're both significant entities within the same village. But, just like with kidoumaru, if anyone needs to be caught up to speed about a character's abilities that we are already familiar with, then it'll happen soon enough. Maybe sasuke will throw a few shurikens at neji and all will be revealed to him.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Are you implying that Neji is going to sit there, spinning around while throwing smoke bombs all day? What would neji do after he throws a smoke bomb? Pretty much all his attacks are counter-attacks, so unless sasuke just charges in, then I don't see the point.

You seriously think Jyuuken techniques are solely counter-attacks, or defensively-based? If there's an opening - BOOM! There goes one of your organs. It's really that simple. Especially if Sasuke is blinded, by vasco's example of smoke bombs.

When do ninjas leave openings though? Usually right after they miss an attack, hence the counter-attack.
I'm not saying jyuuken HAS to be solely counter-attack, but every time we've seen it, its been for that purpose. Considering that hyuga's speciality is observing enemy movement, I'd say it would be reasonable for them to concentrate mostly on countering opponents rather than anything else. And Tenten even said herself "Neji is defensive, he's not at all offensive" (or something unpoetic like that).

[Jaredster]

http://www.leafninja.com/biographies-H.php#Neji

and

http://www.leafninja.com/biographies-U.php#Sasuke


Look at them both and decide.

[The Heretic Azazel]

Wow, the name Neji means Screw,

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: Jaredster
http://www.leafninja.com/biographies-H.php#Neji

and

http://www.leafninja.com/biographies-U.php#Sasuke


Look at them both and decide.

yeah, and lee also has apparently the same taijutsu/speed stats as neji, which is shown to be higher than sasuke's
i wouldn't hold any weight on it to the discussion. Especially since im sure those stats represent the introductory levels of the characters from the first two seasons

[heero]

I got a question...if naruto failed so many times, how come he grad the same age as sasuke and the others?

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

One vote for Neji please!


[img]i/expressions/devil.gif[/img]

[Strider]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
damn, sniped by Strider....

I found this cute. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Any accusation of Neji being as fast as Lee is pure speculation, and only supported by Gai saying that Lee's gate unlocking was the requirement to beating Neji. Note that this correlation does NOT mean that Neji is as fast as Lee prior to unlocking gates.

YOSH'~!!

The correlation does not mean Neji is as fast as Lee or faster. However, it should be clear that Neji is fast enough, and / or strong enough to handle Lee's taijutsu prior to the unleashing of the Proud Green Beast's signature technique.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Speed isnt the only thing capable of countering speed. If this was the case, then Kisame wouldn't have been kicking Gai's ass most of their rematch in the ma

Having speed doesn't mean it's always utilized. Gai realized Kisame was of a higher calibre, and so that there would not be any questions as to his opponent's survival, Gai unleashed the beast with his six gates.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
When Lee acknowledged that Sasuke's assimilation of his taijutsu + doujutsu made him superior to himself, I did not feel that he could make the same statement about Neji's taijutsu + doujutsu. And, as Gai put it, Lee and Neji are different types of taijutsu masters. Lee's focus is external damage through speed and power, but Neji is all about chakra control and accuracy. Speed is required for lee, but not for Neji. Just because they are on the same team doesn't mean that they even remotely train in the same methods.

I took Lee's acknowledgment of Sasuke's training as a sign of his vast potential. At that moment, it was amazing (amazingly cheesy) to see Sasuke moving just like Lee. However, he could not sustain it. So, where's the justification that Sasuke's superior to Lee? Because Sasuke could copy Lee's movements and train to acheive whatever level of speed desired, it opens up more doors for Sasuke than Lee could imagine or aspire to. That's why such a statement was made.

And, Gai tried teaching them all the same certain techniques. Think that eliminates that last comment of yours.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
He didn't seem to be gasping for breath keeping up with kyubi naruto. And kyubi naruto is quite a speed demon in his own right.

.. What are you talking about?

Once Naruto took on the Kyuubi "One-Tail" form, Sasuke got pimped smacked twice, fire off a Katon: Goukyaku no Jutsu, and then activated the Curse Seal and advanced into Stage 2. He was basically immobile the entire time.

Even before then, Naruto was moving towards him. Sasuke sidestepped a few times, and punched him in the face. Kicked him square in the jaw, too. That was it. The only thing moving fast for Sasuke were his eyes.

Where and when did the two have to keep up with one another?

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
heh, lets not talk semantics about a response to a barely legible opening statement.

You had me ballin' over with this one, considering I was in the same boat as you.

He completely lost me with his comments. Hahaha.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
The point I was making was that it doesnt matter if jyuuken is the strongest taijutsu if its paired up against a melee ninjutsu like chidori.

It does, though. Since Chidori is a Melee-ranged Ninjutsu, the caster of Chidori is now within proximity to be harmed by the strongest Taijutsu.

Did I miss your point, again? [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-confused.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
I'm pretty sure the guy meant us the viewers not knowing what sasuke has, not the characters in the series. I like how you didn't respond to my accusation that chidori can probably pierce through kaiten though.

That wasn't intentional. I never noticed that second line, while thinking of my retort. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

Gaara's Sphere of Sand was stationary. It's easier to penetrate. Plus, it's fuckin' sand. You know how often I'd kick little kids' sand castles down at the beach? And, that barely took any effort at all! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Maybe sasuke will throw a few shurikens at neji and all will be revealed to him.

Yup. All will be revealed to him, since Neji will Kaiten and 64 Hands of Hakke those damned shuriken to hell.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
And Tenten even said herself "Neji is defensive, he's not at all offensive" (or something unpoetic like that).

If Tenten did say something like that, I bet she said it better than that. Sheesh.

Originally posted by: The Heretic Azazel
Wow, the name Neji means Screw,

It represents what occurs to all that fuck with him.

As in, "Sasuke would get Neji 'd, trying to fuck with the Hyuuga genius."

.. Okay, that was lame. But, you got my damn drift!

EDIT:

Originally posted by: heero
I got a question...if naruto failed so many times, how come he grad the same age as sasuke and the others?

I wondered the same. Although, I think Naruto had been in the Academy for three years, right?

And, Iruka felt sorry for the Demon Fox-boy.

Thanks for the vote, iMUSTbeTHEdevil. Your vote has given Neji a one vote edge. Rightfully so.

[iMUSTbeTHEdevil]

GO NEJI GO!


Anytime Strider =)


[img]i/expressions/devil.gif[/img]

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
damn, sniped by Strider....

I found this cute.

I aim to amuse [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Any accusation of Neji being as fast as Lee is pure speculation, and only supported by Gai saying that Lee's gate unlocking was the requirement to beating Neji. Note that this correlation does NOT mean that Neji is as fast as Lee prior to unlocking gates.

YOSH'~!!

The correlation does not mean Neji is as fast as Lee or faster. However, it should be clear that Neji is fast enough, and / or strong enough to handle Lee's taijutsu prior to the unleashing of the Proud Green Beast's signature technique.

I wasn't arguing that neji couldn't counter lee's taijutsu prior to the omote renge, I'm just saying that it's no indication that he has lee's speed is all.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
Speed isnt the only thing capable of countering speed. If this was the case, then Kisame wouldn't have been kicking Gai's ass most of their rematch in the ma

Having speed doesn't mean it's always utilized. Gai realized Kisame was of a higher calibre, and so that there would not be any questions as to his opponent's survival, Gai unleashed the beast with his six gates.

For both Lee and Gai, all their moves focus on sheer physical speed and strength. To not utilize it would mean to disregard what he is known best for. Kisame just had a real good defense, kinda like Neji wouldve against lee.

And, Gai tried teaching them all the same certain techniques. Think that eliminates that last comment of yours.

I'd say for about 90% of the time, Gai just leaves Neji and Tenten to themselves for most of their training. Both of them specialize in techniques that Gai probably can't help too much with, and neither of them seem to respect gai all that much anyway. Sure Gai tried teaching all 3 of them the ura renge, but also note that kakashi, without lee's-style training, was also able to open up the first gate. I don't even think there's any speed prerequisite for gate unlocking anyway, it just so happens that everyone who takes gate unlocking seriously also takes speed seriously.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
The point I was making was that it doesnt matter if jyuuken is the strongest taijutsu if its paired up against a melee ninjutsu like chidori.

It does, though. Since Chidori is a Melee-ranged Ninjutsu, the caster of Chidori is now within proximity to be harmed by the strongest Taijutsu.

Did I miss your point, again?

Huh? Maybe you did....
You said it was like comparing apples to oranges, but both moves in question are melee type....which is why such a comparison can be a valid one. However, the guy's argument was that Neji had the strength advantage in close combat because he has the strongest taijutsu. And I'm saying sasuke has the advantage in close combat because he has a melee ninjutsu thats stronger than the strongest taijutsu. Jyuken may have the potential of being fatal, but it certainly took more than one direct hit to put hinata in a near-death state, which is more than how many it wouldve taken if it was sasuke with a chidori instead.

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
I'm pretty sure the guy meant us the viewers not knowing what sasuke has, not the characters in the series. I like how you didn't respond to my accusation that chidori can probably pierce through kaiten though.

That wasn't intentional. I never noticed that second line, while thinking of my retort.

Gaara's Sphere of Sand was stationary. It's easier to penetrate. Plus, it's fuckin' sand. You know how often I'd kick little kids' sand castles down at the beach? And, that barely took any effort at all!

What about sand castles molded together from the chakra of a demon? Sasuke pulled off what nobody in the sand village could pull off....penetrating gaara's absolute defense. I think that has to count for something. We're talking sand hardened from the chakra of a demon vs raw chakra from a genius genin. Everything has to have a threshold where it can be penetrated. Especially in anime.