Minerva vs Archangel.

[naruto22]

First of all, discount all MS. This will lessen headache of this debate. And now I set the scenarios.

Archangel
Captain: Captain Maryu Ramius (veteran of the previous war, commanded the Archangel during the most difficult part of its career and against insurmountable odds, emerged from the previous war intact. She is a very understanding captain while at the same time being a no nonsense captain during battle. Her personality endears most of the crew to her, which explains why many of the old crew still remain. Kira also treats her like a big sister. Very charismatic but a little weak against relationships.

Armanents:
"Lohengrin" positron blaster cannon x 2 (Most Heave weaponry, capable of firing two at once)
"Gottfried Mk.71" 225cm dual high-energy beam cannon x 2 (Standard Anto-Warship weapon)
"Valiant Mk.8" 110cm linear cannon x 2 (High speed firing RAIL gun often used in GS against MS)
"Igelstellung" 75mm automatic multi-barrel CIWS x 16 (useless except for destroying missles)
Torpedo launcher x ? (Wombat anti Ship missles, Sledgehammer heavy missiles used against MS and ships)
Large missile launcher x 24
Surface-to-air missile launcher x 16 (Helldarts, mostly for interception of incoming missles and non-PS MS)
Anti-beam depth charge launcher x 8 (Like hell they need them, AA's armour is laminated and extremely laser resistant.

Weaknesses: Apparently so far, only speed. Nazca's could outrun them in GS. Minerva on the other hand is more speed oriented so possess an advantage in this field.

Minerva
Captain Talia Gladys: We know nothing about Talia's prior combat experience except that apparently, she did fight in the previous war, making her a veteran. Her exploits on the planet Earth shows that she is a competent commander who knows her ship but her strategist skills, like Maryu is not displayed often. Personality wise, she is a little drab and not quite as likeable as Maryu. Her chief weakness is her inability to administer military discipline to her crew, as demonstrated by Shinn Asuka who has blatantly disregarded her orders many times and never shows her the respect that is due to a captain.

Nevertheless, like Maryu , she is competent. I would like to put both on the same level in terms of captaining their ships.

Armanenets
XM47 "Tristan" dual beam cannon x 2, (Similar to Gottfreid, they're used for anti-ship duels and have better recharge then the Tanhauser)
M10 "Isolde" 42cm triple cannon x 1 (Shell weaponry. this I believe is one of the few advantages Minerva has over AA as AA is still vulnerable to projectile weaponry. AA's only equivalent is the Valiant rail guns, which so far, have not seen deployed effectively against warships)

QZX-1 "Tannhäuser" positron cannon x 1, (Minerva's ultimate weapon. Since it has only one, I think is safe to assume that it has a faster recharge rate the AA's two Lohengrins.

40mm CIWS x 12, missile launchers ("Neidhardt" space missiles,
"Parsifal" ground missiles, "Dispar" interceptor missiles) x many, torpedo launcher ("Wolfram" M25 torpedoes) x 4, anti-beam depth charge launchers x many

Weaknesses: Not much. I would say the lack of submersible capabilities but that is irrelevant to the scenario I've set below. It does seem that AA is slightly more heavily armed than Minerva is you take into account that Minerva has only one Isolde cannon while AA has 2 Valiant rail guns.

First debate

Battleground: Space (assume deep space, no gravity factors like Earth and the Moon to hamp their maneuverabilities.

OK people, throw your opinions. AND MAKE SURE THEY'RE WELL DOCUMENTED AND SUPPORTED WITH ON-SCREEN EVIDENCE. I'm an auditor by profession and i like to see evidence back opinions.

[Raiten]

If you only take specs of both battleships into consideration you will undoubtfully find out that the Minerva is equipped with weaponary to destroy other battle ships. While the AA is built for multi-purpose situation mainly for large scale war. Both ships can possibly take out the other if the attacks are concentrated correctly. Therefore both ships are on the same scale in this matter. Except, Minerva is built way after AA therefore it's technology is far more advance to AA, so MInerva has the advantage there. The Tanhauser has a longer range then any gun AA has on it's arsenal. The overall comparison would end up with MInerva winning, but when the added factor of who's the captain then it can be clearly stated that it all results in how much skill and how clever the captain of the battle ship is. Also as stated before somewhere in this forum, there is a theory saying that Minerva's original intent was to be built to destroy AA therefore it is better armed and more manverable then the AA in almost all factors. Except the only thing that the person who designed the Minerva missed out was the new AA was upgraded to be able to dive underwater as it previously wasn't able to in GS. Therefore that's the only disadvantage it has over the AA. According to Episode 43-44 the AA was extremely disadvantaged to the Minerva the whole battle until it decided to use submission tactics to fight back. So, the last word would be that Minerva would win if it was a regular space war of dumb captains and cannon spamming retards.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Raiten
The Tanhauser has a longer range then any gun AA has on it's arsenal.

The Tannhauser is "just" a Positron Cannon. It is THE EXACT SAME THING as the Archangel's Lohingrin. Archangel would have the advantage there because they have TWO of them to Minerva's ONE. Even if the Tannhauser has a faster recharge cycle as naruto22 thinks, the AA could just stagger it's shots. Plus in 1 on 1 Ship combat I doubt range would end up as an issue unless one of them was trying to snipe at the other before the fight began.

Originally posted by: naruto22
M10 "Isolde" 42cm triple cannon x 1 (Shell weaponry. this I believe is one of the few advantages Minerva has over AA as AA is still vulnerable to projectile weaponry. AA's only equivalent is the Valiant rail guns, which so far, have not seen deployed effectively against warships)

I don't see how this is an advantage at all. Rail Guns are just like the Isolade, except they can fire MUCH faster projectiles which are harder to dodge. In fact I don't remember the Isolade hitting anything before until episode 45 where it hit a stationary target (the moon base). That doesn't mean it hasn't, but it wasn't anything notable. The Archangel used the Variant Rail Guns against the ZAFT naval fleet a couple of episodes ago, and we have never really seen it in combat with space war ships. At the beginning of SEED it was constantly on the run because it was pretty much always out numbered and out gunned by larger ZAFT attack forces and the stolen Gundam units. After it met up with the 8th Armada while the Armada was fighting the ZAFT force the Archangel was decending to Earth. Then at the end of SEED when it returned to space it pretty much only fought the Dominion, 1 ship which happened to have the former Executive Officer (and someone that Ramius was probably hesitent to kill) from the AA as it's captain. In Destiny we have yet to see the AA in Space at all.

[Strike Freedom]

An important key to remember in a debate that is a grey area, there is no right or wrong, just a well contested argument. I like this question as it is very similar to that of an essay on a LSAT. Yes, I am an aspiring attorney so I know a question structured like this would be on there! Very well done, presentation of facts is plausible, as well as the setup of rules for this thread's debate.

I would have to say the Archangel would come out on top. Why? I heavily base my opinion on the experience difference/skills of the captains. (I will not bring up the crew of each respective ship as it would be unadvantageous for me in terms of time, so only captains will suffice).

Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure. From previous battles, her strategic attacks are instinctive and coordinated. Ramius is more effetive in strategy and tactics since the Archangel does not look to destroy its enemy, rather disable it. She also follows no superior's orders and commands the entire battle sequence for the AA. Ramius uses her environment to her advantage (look back at various episodes such as 23, 28, and 42) . There were several times that the AA surprised the Minerva. Of course, the circumstances were in favor of the Archangel. I bring up this point since it does not specify who initiates the battle, exactly how it starts, etc. Another advantage is that Ramius actually knows the Minerva, since she's worked on it (look back to the beginning episodes when she is maintaining it in Orb, episode 8). She was in the ship, she should know its limits and capacities. The Archangel is more heavily armed than the Minerva, this advantage is self explanatory. Although slower, it makes up for its lack of speed with its weapons and quick decisions from an experienced and capable captain and crew. The AA's crew is by far more experienced than that of the Minerva's as well. Experience is important when dealing with enemies, it gives one an upper hand in strategy/tactics. Lastly, the AA fights for what it believes in. Although this may seem trivial, I believe one's faith can drive that individual beyond expectations and help overcome most obstacles.

Talia is a good captain, but lacks the experience of Ramius (from what we know). I would not consider her a great tactician when compared to Ramius. The Minerva more or less aims at taking out its enemy. She is told to follow orders, is told where to be on the battlefield, unlike her counterpart. Look back at most of the battles and the Minerva is always part of a larger attack squad of Zaft, and in some instances Talia asks for permission from her superiors (episode 42 and 43 are good proof). Her lack of control over the crew creates a dissonance that affects the effectiveness of the Minerva in battle (episode 33 is a good one to watch to realize that there are different views on this ship). If her crew is doing as they please in battle it could prove disruptive to the Minerva. Talia seems to let her emotions get a bit more out of hand than her counterpart (episode 37). This has led her to be indecisive about some decisions in battle (episode 34 when AA is being attacked by Minerva) and quick to act in others (look back at episode 42 around 19:25). The Minerva is strong, but it does not fight for a particular belief. It does as it is told to do. This is a disadvantage in battle. The captain Gladys is very conflicted in following orders and her beliefs, and this leads to ineffective and inefficient leadership.

Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster. The AA takes off in episode 45 with no thrusters and reaches space. The AA has more weapons as stated before than the Minerva, allowing it to be more offensive and giving it a stronger defense than the Minerva. Further, I disagree that the Minerva's Taunhauser can recharge faster (without any proof since you demand proof, it is fair), it is just an assumption made. I would rather say that the Taunhauser does take time to charge (episode 23 & 34). The same it takes the AA to charge its Lohengrins. The advantage of these positron cannon's would be the AA's though, since it has two of them, doing double the damage than the Minerva's single cannon. The AA would suffer severe damage in such a battle, but come out victorious over the Minerva, Final Word!

Lastly, I hope this could take on a mature form in the spirit of good arguments. An argument is a claim, supported by reasons and evidence. It does not have to change the views of others towards the objective of your own claim, rather you will accomplish the same mission if your argument is respectful, well done, thought out in such a way that it may not create support but at least respect from your readers. Argument comes from the Latin word of "argentum" which means to make clear. I hope this becomes a respectful and thoughtful debate!

[Splash!]

@ naruto 22
arent the the valiant railguns the wun the AA uses under water to try and hit the minerva in episode 43. Well from what i have seen they are much better than the minerva's isolde.
As for the part about the lohegrin, i agree with curium and let us remember that the AA has 2 while the minerva only has 1 tannhauser. On top of that, AA can go underwater, but i believe the minerva probably has a higher MS carrying capacity(Not sure someone check this) and in large scale battle that can probably prove to be more decisive than the armaments.

[XwingRob]

Simple, Archangel engages Minerva and launches Mwu in the Sky Grasper. AA wins.

What? You said no mobile suits. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[Curium]

Originally posted by: XwingRob
Simple, Archangel engages Minerva and launches Mwu in the Sky Grasper. AA wins.

What? You said no mobile suits. [img][/img]

The Sky Grasper is a Fighter. It isn't usable in Deep Space. He would have to use either his Mobious Zero, or a variation of the Sky Grasper called the FXet-565 Cosmograsper.

[aznimperialx]

AA probably wins. It has more sturdyness than the minvera

[Curium]

Originally posted by: aznimperialx
AA probably wins. It has more sturdyness than the minvera

That is a good point, but I will expand on it a little, and branch out.

The Archangel doesn't seem to have a lot of wasted space, it is fully loaded with weaponry, but not excessivly large. The Minerva on the other hand seems to be larger then it really needs to be. It has to have that seperate area just to store the Impulse's special catapult plus all the various Impulse parts and spares (I still think the Impulse system is rediculous). Since Mobile Suits are banned in this scenario, the whole Impulse thing is a waste of space. With the extra size Minerva doesn't really seem to use it for extra veaponry, it just makes it into a bigger target that is easier to hit. Just looking at the Minerva, it looks awfully similar to the AA except with the front added on. If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).

[naruto22]

Please people, note that the scenario set is a SPACE BATTLE. That is why earlier I mentioned that Archangel's submersive abilities are non-applicable in the fight.

Reason I discounted mobile suits from the battle is because too often have the GUNDAMs been used as deus ex machinas, plot devices that save the day and their power cannot be reliably measured due to Fukuda's imagination which seems to be they can do anything.

That is why the scope of this discussion is limited to capital ship capabilities and the competencies of their crew.

As the instigator of this debate, I hope you will accept me as the one to control the scope of this discussion. Hence if you want to add mobile suits to the mix, please tell me so I can define the situation into a plausible one. For example, if you want to put Asuran and Kira in CIC or gunnery, please do so although I doubt either one knows how to do that job as well as Mirilia or their counterparts.

Anyway, some replies to earlier quotes:

Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure

Missle launchers will still work, they're located on the sides, just like Arcnagels is located on its side "fins". But Archangel is the same, too many weapons are aimed forward. Aft side, they have no weaonpry except the CIWS. Oh, AA's railguns can turn so it still can fire from behind. Buts its the least damaging of AA's weapons.
Actually, she didn't on some occassions. Like I said, she sometimes let emotions take over, such as when Mwu La Flaga was blasted apart by the Dominion (Gundam Seed Phase 50). She completely broke down in the middle of a raging battle, only gathering enough composure to order the Archangel to return fire. Base on her battle with Natarle, I can't say she is great in stategic and tactics as well.

Then again, neither is Talia. Both haven't shown that they're military geniuses, meerly competent captains. But I agree that at least Maryu knows what she is fighting for. Unlike Talia and the kids at Minerva. And she has handled greater pressure than Talia has experienced in the entire Gundam Seed Destiny series, like piloting Archangel since Day One, dropping in the middle of ZAFT territory and fighting all the way to Alaska. Granted Kira was a huge factor but the fact is that she held the crew together like a family.

Talia on the other hand, well, like I said, no personality.

Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.

Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.

This is not a very good argument, but its on screen evidence.

Can't believe I'm defending Minerva and its crew of pansies. Oh well, its a bunch of pansies piloting a fast ship that easily beats Archangel in terms of aesthetics.

I stand by my belief that Minerva has the speed advantage. But AA has more guns than Minerva.

If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).

[Terracosmo]

Who's to say that Ramius has more experience than Talia? It should not be blatantly assumed by anyone that Talia doesn't have any experience compared to the prior... also what do you mean, naruto22, "no personality"? How does Ramius have anymore personality than she does? They both have pasts which hasn't been deeply delved into (out of which Talia's is much more intriguating since the whole child issue of hers hasn't been shown yet), other than that we only know that they are both competent captains who had issues with their higher-ups (Talia doesn't approve of Gil's actions many times, and Ramius had fights with various EA officers in Seed).

[LokeXero]

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster.

Those booster were only needed for launch purposes, Same in Seed when AA goes to space. Theres no drag in space, hence it doesnt even need the thrusters to be going once it clears earths atmosphere and since there is no drag on the moon they arnt needed anymore. That being said, When AA was running from Minerva, AA couldnt outrun Minerva which is why AA submerged and Talia let them go, hence Speed for Minerva > Speed of AA.

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
The AA takes off in episode 45 with no thrusters and reaches space. The AA has more weapons as stated before than the Minerva, allowing it to be more offensive and giving it a stronger defense than the Minerva.

Maybe so, AA wasnt is a hurry to stop Djibril though were they, Hence they could take there time... AA might have a power advantage over Minerva but Minervas speed allows it to get behind AA and shoot the majority of weapons into the back of AA...

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Please people, note that the scenario set is a SPACE BATTLE. That is why earlier I mentioned that Archangel's submersive abilities are non-applicable in the fight.

Reason I discounted mobile suits from the battle is because too often have the GUNDAMs been used as deus ex machinas, plot devices that save the day and their power cannot be reliably measured due to Fukuda's imagination which seems to be they can do anything.

That is why the scope of this discussion is limited to capital ship capabilities and the competencies of their crew.

As the instigator of this debate, I hope you will accept me as the one to control the scope of this discussion. Hence if you want to add mobile suits to the mix, please tell me so I can define the situation into a plausible one. For example, if you want to put Asuran and Kira in CIC or gunnery, please do so although I doubt either one knows how to do that job as well as Mirilia or their counterparts.

Anyway, some replies to earlier quotes:

Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure

Missle launchers will still work, they're located on the sides, just like Arcnagels is located on its side "fins". But Archangel is the same, too many weapons are aimed forward. Aft side, they have no weaonpry except the CIWS. Oh, AA's railguns can turn so it still can fire from behind. Buts its the least damaging of AA's weapons.
Actually, she didn't on some occassions. Like I said, she sometimes let emotions take over, such as when Mwu La Flaga was blasted apart by the Dominion (Gundam Seed Phase 50). She completely broke down in the middle of a raging battle, only gathering enough composure to order the Archangel to return fire. Base on her battle with Natarle, I can't say she is great in stategic and tactics as well.

Then again, neither is Talia. Both haven't shown that they're military geniuses, meerly competent captains. But I agree that at least Maryu knows what she is fighting for. Unlike Talia and the kids at Minerva. And she has handled greater pressure than Talia has experienced in the entire Gundam Seed Destiny series, like piloting Archangel since Day One, dropping in the middle of ZAFT territory and fighting all the way to Alaska. Granted Kira was a huge factor but the fact is that she held the crew together like a family.

Talia on the other hand, well, like I said, no personality.

Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.

Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.

This is not a very good argument, but its on screen evidence.

Can't believe I'm defending Minerva and its crew of pansies. Oh well, its a bunch of pansies piloting a fast ship that easily beats Archangel in terms of aesthetics.

I stand by my belief that Minerva has the speed advantage. But AA has more guns than Minerva.

If the front part is destroyed the Minerva may be able to continue to operate, but they would lose a good deal of their weaponry (Tannhauser, Isolade, probably some missle launchers).

My assumptions are for GSD, not GS. We're talking about the current Seed series. Of course Ramius would not have been composed as she is all her life. BUT in GSD she has yet to lose that composure. I concede that in GS she lost it when Mwu went what seemily seemed bye bye, now resurrected from the dead by Fukada. Yet, my assumption (which I thought was to be understood by everyone) is that this argument is only in terms of the present which would be GSD. So therefore, my argument stands as valid and strong on that assumption.

About the Minerva being faster than the AA, I will change my view on that argument as of the moment. Your argument as well as the others that Minerva should be faster. So it gives the Minerva an advantage. Yet what good was that speed when the Minerva battled the AA in episode 42? This is really a question I pose. The battle seemed pretty even between the two ships, although the AA had a slight advantage cause of the skygrasper. I still stand with the facts that I have given, that the Minerva would most likely lose in battle to the AA from the arguments I posted above.

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Who's to say that Ramius has more experience than Talia? It should not be blatantly assumed by anyone that Talia doesn't have any experience compared to the prior... also what do you mean, naruto22, "no personality"? How does Ramius have anymore personality than she does? They both have pasts which hasn't been deeply delved into (out of which Talia's is much more intriguating since the whole child issue of hers hasn't been shown yet), other than that we only know that they are both competent captains who had issues with their higher-ups (Talia doesn't approve of Gil's actions many times, and Ramius had fights with various EA officers in Seed).

That is true Terra, but for that mere reason that we do not know, we must go with what we do know. They may have equal experience, Talia may have more experience, the problem with these scenarios is that it is NOT necessilary true. Therefore, you must work with the evidence you have, that is why Ramius as of now from what is blatantly true has more experience than Gladys. This strengthens my arguments since I am working off the facts that I have, not the possibilities of what could be (since that would be a major weakness in my argument).

[Terracosmo]

That makes no sense. You don't achieve the rank Talia has from just sitting around. Just because it hasn't actually been shown in the anime doesn't mean that it can't be included in an argument.

[LokeXero]

Actually i think talia has shown enough of her tactical and strategic knowledge for her past as an officer to be included in the debate...

[xat]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.

Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.

Quick note: since we are within the bounds of space, the only time aerodynamics applies is when both ships head for space from an atmospheric setting (and vice versa). With no air friction in space, aerodynamics applies far less. I'm thinking that a better arguement would be to take mass into consideration, and how much power it takes to propel that mass (I don't actually know how much each vessel's mass is though).

I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster.

Those booster were only needed for launch purposes, Same in Seed when AA goes to space. Theres no drag in space, hence it doesnt even need the thrusters to be going once it clears earths atmosphere and since there is no drag on the moon they arnt needed anymore. That being said, When AA was running from Minerva, AA couldnt outrun Minerva which is why AA submerged and Talia let them go, hence Speed for Minerva > Speed of AA.

I agree, you are absolutely right. However, I am basing my arguments solely on the present of what is GSD. I do not want to compare then to now, rather ship to ship using only the present series. Why? Most of my arguments are based on that. Why? The AA now is being commanded differently by Ramius than in SEED, she has matured and developed as a captain. Things are different, so comparing the past AA to the present seems a bit irrational.

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
That makes no sense. You don't achieve the rank Talia has from just sitting around. Just because it hasn't actually been shown in the anime doesn't mean that it can't be included in an argument.

What makes no sense? I never said anything about Talia's rank Terra, I acknowledge you might be right, but until it becomes fact, I will use only the facts I have which does not include Gladys past [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: xat

Originally posted by: naruto22
Srike Freedom, I have to disagree with you on the speed advantage of Minerva. She is definitely built more aerodynamic that Archangel's odd shape. As for the comment about Archangel not using boosters to get to space, kindly look again, carefully at the back fins of the Archangel as it took off. You will see that there are some sort of boosters attached there.

Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.

Quick note: since we are within the bounds of space, the only time aerodynamics applies is when both ships head for space from an atmospheric setting (and vice versa). With no air friction in space, aerodynamics applies far less. I'm thinking that a better arguement would be to take mass into consideration, and how much power it takes to propel that mass (I don't actually know how much each vessel weighs though).

I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.

Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation