Minerva vs Archangel.

[naruto22]

First of all, discount all MS. This will lessen headache of this debate. And now I set the scenarios.

Archangel
Captain: Captain Maryu Ramius (veteran of the previous war, commanded the Archangel during the most difficult part of its career and against insurmountable odds, emerged from the previous war intact. She is a very understanding captain while at the same time being a no nonsense captain during battle. Her personality endears most of the crew to her, which explains why many of the old crew still remain. Kira also treats her like a big sister. Very charismatic but a little weak against relationships.

Armanents:
"Lohengrin" positron blaster cannon x 2 (Most Heave weaponry, capable of firing two at once)
"Gottfried Mk.71" 225cm dual high-energy beam cannon x 2 (Standard Anto-Warship weapon)
"Valiant Mk.8" 110cm linear cannon x 2 (High speed firing RAIL gun often used in GS against MS)
"Igelstellung" 75mm automatic multi-barrel CIWS x 16 (useless except for destroying missles)
Torpedo launcher x ? (Wombat anti Ship missles, Sledgehammer heavy missiles used against MS and ships)
Large missile launcher x 24
Surface-to-air missile launcher x 16 (Helldarts, mostly for interception of incoming missles and non-PS MS)
Anti-beam depth charge launcher x 8 (Like hell they need them, AA's armour is laminated and extremely laser resistant.

Weaknesses: Apparently so far, only speed. Nazca's could outrun them in GS. Minerva on the other hand is more speed oriented so possess an advantage in this field.

Minerva
Captain Talia Gladys: We know nothing about Talia's prior combat experience except that apparently, she did fight in the previous war, making her a veteran. Her exploits on the planet Earth shows that she is a competent commander who knows her ship but her strategist skills, like Maryu is not displayed often. Personality wise, she is a little drab and not quite as likeable as Maryu. Her chief weakness is her inability to administer military discipline to her crew, as demonstrated by Shinn Asuka who has blatantly disregarded her orders many times and never shows her the respect that is due to a captain.

Nevertheless, like Maryu , she is competent. I would like to put both on the same level in terms of captaining their ships.

Armanenets
XM47 "Tristan" dual beam cannon x 2, (Similar to Gottfreid, they're used for anti-ship duels and have better recharge then the Tanhauser)
M10 "Isolde" 42cm triple cannon x 1 (Shell weaponry. this I believe is one of the few advantages Minerva has over AA as AA is still vulnerable to projectile weaponry. AA's only equivalent is the Valiant rail guns, which so far, have not seen deployed effectively against warships)

QZX-1 "Tannhäuser" positron cannon x 1, (Minerva's ultimate weapon. Since it has only one, I think is safe to assume that it has a faster recharge rate the AA's two Lohengrins.

40mm CIWS x 12, missile launchers ("Neidhardt" space missiles,
"Parsifal" ground missiles, "Dispar" interceptor missiles) x many, torpedo launcher ("Wolfram" M25 torpedoes) x 4, anti-beam depth charge launchers x many

Weaknesses: Not much. I would say the lack of submersible capabilities but that is irrelevant to the scenario I've set below. It does seem that AA is slightly more heavily armed than Minerva is you take into account that Minerva has only one Isolde cannon while AA has 2 Valiant rail guns.

First debate

Battleground: Space (assume deep space, no gravity factors like Earth and the Moon to hamp their maneuverabilities.

OK people, throw your opinions. AND MAKE SURE THEY'RE WELL DOCUMENTED AND SUPPORTED WITH ON-SCREEN EVIDENCE. I'm an auditor by profession and i like to see evidence back opinions.

[Raiten]

If you only take specs of both battleships into consideration you will undoubtfully find out that the Minerva is equipped with weaponary to destroy other battle ships. While the AA is built for multi-purpose situation mainly for large scale war. Both ships can possibly take out the other if the attacks are concentrated correctly. Therefore both ships are on the same scale in this matter. Except, Minerva is built way after AA therefore it's technology is far more advance to AA, so MInerva has the advantage there. The Tanhauser has a longer range then any gun AA has on it's arsenal. The overall comparison would end up with MInerva winning, but when the added factor of who's the captain then it can be clearly stated that it all results in how much skill and how clever the captain of the battle ship is. Also as stated before somewhere in this forum, there is a theory saying that Minerva's original intent was to be built to destroy AA therefore it is better armed and more manverable then the AA in almost all factors. Except the only thing that the person who designed the Minerva missed out was the new AA was upgraded to be able to dive underwater as it previously wasn't able to in GS. Therefore that's the only disadvantage it has over the AA. According to Episode 43-44 the AA was extremely disadvantaged to the Minerva the whole battle until it decided to use submission tactics to fight back. So, the last word would be that Minerva would win if it was a regular space war of dumb captains and cannon spamming retards.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Raiten
The Tanhauser has a longer range then any gun AA has on it's arsenal.

The Tannhauser is "just" a Positron Cannon. It is THE EXACT SAME THING as the Archangel's Lohingrin. Archangel would have the advantage there because they have TWO of them to Minerva's ONE. Even if the Tannhauser has a faster recharge cycle as naruto22 thinks, the AA could just stagger it's shots. Plus in 1 on 1 Ship combat I doubt range would end up as an issue unless one of them was trying to snipe at the other before the fight began.

Originally posted by: naruto22
M10 "Isolde" 42cm triple cannon x 1 (Shell weaponry. this I believe is one of the few advantages Minerva has over AA as AA is still vulnerable to projectile weaponry. AA's only equivalent is the Valiant rail guns, which so far, have not seen deployed effectively against warships)

I don't see how this is an advantage at all. Rail Guns are just like the Isolade, except they can fire MUCH faster projectiles which are harder to dodge. In fact I don't remember the Isolade hitting anything before until episode 45 where it hit a stationary target (the moon base). That doesn't mean it hasn't, but it wasn't anything notable. The Archangel used the Variant Rail Guns against the ZAFT naval fleet a couple of episodes ago, and we have never really seen it in combat with space war ships. At the beginning of SEED it was constantly on the run because it was pretty much always out numbered and out gunned by larger ZAFT attack forces and the stolen Gundam units. After it met up with the 8th Armada while the Armada was fighting the ZAFT force the Archangel was decending to Earth. Then at the end of SEED when it returned to space it pretty much only fought the Dominion, 1 ship which happened to have the former Executive Officer (and someone that Ramius was probably hesitent to kill) from the AA as it's captain. In Destiny we have yet to see the AA in Space at all.

[Strike Freedom]

An important key to remember in a debate that is a grey area, there is no right or wrong, just a well contested argument. I like this question as it is very similar to that of an essay on a LSAT. Yes, I am an aspiring attorney so I know a question structured like this would be on there! Very well done, presentation of facts is plausible, as well as the setup of rules for this thread's debate.

I would have to say the Archangel would come out on top. Why? I heavily base my opinion on the experience difference/skills of the captains. (I will not bring up the crew of each respective ship as it would be unadvantageous for me in terms of time, so only captains will suffice).

Ramius is a veteran captain, with several years experience. She played a curcial role in the last war. Further, she has shown herself to be very competent and to maintain complete composure while under pressure. From previous battles, her strategic attacks are instinctive and coordinated. Ramius is more effetive in strategy and tactics since the Archangel does not look to destroy its enemy, rather disable it. She also follows no superior's orders and commands the entire battle sequence for the AA. Ramius uses her environment to her advantage (look back at various episodes such as 23, 28, and 42) . There were several times that the AA surprised the Minerva. Of course, the circumstances were in favor of the Archangel. I bring up this point since it does not specify who initiates the battle, exactly how it starts, etc. Another advantage is that Ramius actually knows the Minerva, since she's worked on it (look back to the beginning episodes when she is maintaining it in Orb, episode 8). She was in the ship, she should know its limits and capacities. The Archangel is more heavily armed than the Minerva, this advantage is self explanatory. Although slower, it makes up for its lack of speed with its weapons and quick decisions from an experienced and capable captain and crew. The AA's crew is by far more experienced than that of the Minerva's as well. Experience is important when dealing with enemies, it gives one an upper hand in strategy/tactics. Lastly, the AA fights for what it believes in. Although this may seem trivial, I believe one's faith can drive that individual beyond expectations and help overcome most obstacles.

Talia is a good captain, but lacks the experience of Ramius (from what we know). I would not consider her a great tactician when compared to Ramius. The Minerva more or less aims at taking out its enemy. She is told to follow orders, is told where to be on the battlefield, unlike her counterpart. Look back at most of the battles and the Minerva is always part of a larger attack squad of Zaft, and in some instances Talia asks for permission from her superiors (episode 42 and 43 are good proof). Her lack of control over the crew creates a dissonance that affects the effectiveness of the Minerva in battle (episode 33 is a good one to watch to realize that there are different views on this ship). If her crew is doing as they please in battle it could prove disruptive to the Minerva. Talia seems to let her emotions get a bit more out of hand than her counterpart (episode 37). This has led her to be indecisive about some decisions in battle (episode 34 when AA is being attacked by Minerva) and quick to act in others (look back at episode 42 around 19:25). The Minerva is strong, but it does not fight for a particular belief. It does as it is told to do. This is a disadvantage in battle. The captain Gladys is very conflicted in following orders and her beliefs, and this leads to ineffective and inefficient leadership.

Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster. The AA takes off in episode 45 with no thrusters and reaches space. The AA has more weapons as stated before than the Minerva, allowing it to be more offensive and giving it a stronger defense than the Minerva. Further, I disagree that the Minerva's Taunhauser can recharge faster (without any proof since you demand proof, it is fair), it is just an assumption made. I would rather say that the Taunhauser does take time to charge (episode 23 & 34). The same it takes the AA to charge its Lohengrins. The advantage of these positron cannon's would be the AA's though, since it has two of them, doing double the damage than the Minerva's single cannon. The AA would suffer severe damage in such a battle, but come out victorious over the Minerva, Final Word!

Lastly, I hope this could take on a mature form in the spirit of good arguments. An argument is a claim, supported by reasons and evidence. It does not have to change the views of others towards the objective of your own claim, rather you will accomplish the same mission if your argument is respectful, well done, thought out in such a way that it may not create support but at least respect from your readers. Argument comes from the Latin word of "argentum" which means to make clear. I hope this becomes a respectful and thoughtful debate!

[Splash!]

@ naruto 22
arent the the valiant railguns the wun the AA uses under water to try and hit the minerva in episode 43. Well from what i have seen they are much better than the minerva's isolde.
As for the part about the lohegrin, i agree with curium and let us remember that the AA has 2 while the minerva only has 1 tannhauser. On top of that, AA can go underwater, but i believe the minerva probably has a higher MS carrying capacity(Not sure someone check this) and in large scale battle that can probably prove to be more decisive than the armaments.

[XwingRob]

Simple, Archangel engages Minerva and launches Mwu in the Sky Grasper. AA wins.

What? You said no mobile suits. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[Curium]

Originally posted by: XwingRob
Simple, Archangel engages Minerva and launches Mwu in the Sky Grasper. AA wins.

What? You said no mobile suits. [img][/img]

The Sky Grasper is a Fighter. It isn't usable in Deep Space. He would have to use either his Mobious Zero, or a variation of the Sky Grasper called the FXet-565 Cosmograsper.

[aznimperialx]

AA probably wins. It has more sturdyness than the minvera

[LokeXero]

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster.

Those booster were only needed for launch purposes, Same in Seed when AA goes to space. Theres no drag in space, hence it doesnt even need the thrusters to be going once it clears earths atmosphere and since there is no drag on the moon they arnt needed anymore. That being said, When AA was running from Minerva, AA couldnt outrun Minerva which is why AA submerged and Talia let them go, hence Speed for Minerva > Speed of AA.

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
The AA takes off in episode 45 with no thrusters and reaches space. The AA has more weapons as stated before than the Minerva, allowing it to be more offensive and giving it a stronger defense than the Minerva.

Maybe so, AA wasnt is a hurry to stop Djibril though were they, Hence they could take there time... AA might have a power advantage over Minerva but Minervas speed allows it to get behind AA and shoot the majority of weapons into the back of AA...

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom
Overall, both ships match up pretty equally. Though the Archangel is slow as pointed out, I would say the same applies to the Minerva. How so? Episode 44, around 19:15, the Minerva takes off and is shown with extra Thrusters. Now, I do have in mind that the Minerva needs to reach Space ASAP, yet it does prove that the Minerva's speed isn't above that of the AA, in fact it might be slower. In episode 45, if the Minerva was in such a hurry to destroy the Requiem, then why were the boosters off. It could have used that extra speed to get to it even faster.

Those booster were only needed for launch purposes, Same in Seed when AA goes to space. Theres no drag in space, hence it doesnt even need the thrusters to be going once it clears earths atmosphere and since there is no drag on the moon they arnt needed anymore. That being said, When AA was running from Minerva, AA couldnt outrun Minerva which is why AA submerged and Talia let them go, hence Speed for Minerva > Speed of AA.

I agree, you are absolutely right. However, I am basing my arguments solely on the present of what is GSD. I do not want to compare then to now, rather ship to ship using only the present series. Why? Most of my arguments are based on that. Why? The AA now is being commanded differently by Ramius than in SEED, she has matured and developed as a captain. Things are different, so comparing the past AA to the present seems a bit irrational.

[Terracosmo]

Who's to say that Ramius has more experience than Talia? It should not be blatantly assumed by anyone that Talia doesn't have any experience compared to the prior... also what do you mean, naruto22, "no personality"? How does Ramius have anymore personality than she does? They both have pasts which hasn't been deeply delved into (out of which Talia's is much more intriguating since the whole child issue of hers hasn't been shown yet), other than that we only know that they are both competent captains who had issues with their higher-ups (Talia doesn't approve of Gil's actions many times, and Ramius had fights with various EA officers in Seed).

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Who's to say that Ramius has more experience than Talia? It should not be blatantly assumed by anyone that Talia doesn't have any experience compared to the prior... also what do you mean, naruto22, "no personality"? How does Ramius have anymore personality than she does? They both have pasts which hasn't been deeply delved into (out of which Talia's is much more intriguating since the whole child issue of hers hasn't been shown yet), other than that we only know that they are both competent captains who had issues with their higher-ups (Talia doesn't approve of Gil's actions many times, and Ramius had fights with various EA officers in Seed).

That is true Terra, but for that mere reason that we do not know, we must go with what we do know. They may have equal experience, Talia may have more experience, the problem with these scenarios is that it is NOT necessilary true. Therefore, you must work with the evidence you have, that is why Ramius as of now from what is blatantly true has more experience than Gladys. This strengthens my arguments since I am working off the facts that I have, not the possibilities of what could be (since that would be a major weakness in my argument).

[Terracosmo]

That makes no sense. You don't achieve the rank Talia has from just sitting around. Just because it hasn't actually been shown in the anime doesn't mean that it can't be included in an argument.

[LokeXero]

Actually i think talia has shown enough of her tactical and strategic knowledge for her past as an officer to be included in the debate...

[Strike Freedom]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
That makes no sense. You don't achieve the rank Talia has from just sitting around. Just because it hasn't actually been shown in the anime doesn't mean that it can't be included in an argument.

What makes no sense? I never said anything about Talia's rank Terra, I acknowledge you might be right, but until it becomes fact, I will use only the facts I have which does not include Gladys past [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img]

[SkyReaper]

Sorry for butting in, SF seems to hold the same opinions on the matter as I have, but I just want to add one little thing.

Even though the Minerva might have better speed then AA, in a battle situation, I don't think the diference is high enough to influence the outcome. A competent pilot, even while using a slightly slower machine will never turn his back to his enemy unless circumstances force him to do so, or if the enemy machine has a VERRY significant diference in speed AND agility.

Anyone here who has experiance at playing Armored Core (Giant robot game for PS2) would know what I'm talking about. An armored core with tank threads can still manuver in ways to keep a midweight in front of him for the entire duration of the battle, unless the midweight decides to fly over the tank, making both machines be back to back. A lightweight on the other hand will have little to no trouble at getting and staying behind the tank.

This might seem a little wierd for me to bring in situations from an other source to back up an argument, but in this case, I believe that anyone with battle experiance would try to do the same, given the oportunity.

[Black_Wing]

I vote archangel since captain Maryu Ramius has the milf factor.

Besides she is a better technican if you look all over in seed the archangel has managed to get thru many tough situations when being prused by zaft or the eaf.
She also has a good relation ship with crew and are more experience.

Minevera crew for the most part does listen to gladys ex. rey and shinn breaking out stellar. Arthur his always liek wowo what do i do and is a bad co captian.

Also the archangel has the kira effect. If you blow it up it will always come back .

there i conclude that AA would indeed own the minerva

[naruto22]

Regarding my earlier aruments FOR Minerva's speed, I realised that I made an error. I was suppose to be depicting a space scenario yet I used data evidence based on an atmospheric situation.

Strike Freedom, I think I erred in bringing up the whole speed thing. In this battle, they won't need speed any more since they already encoutnered one another.

I think the argument should shift to MANERUVERABILITY, not speed.

Remember that both AA and Minerva suffer from a design flaw that focuses all weapons in front. Except for missle launchers and CIWS, they have pratically no weapons in the aft section nor do they have any underneath their bellies as well. So now its a battle of who can shoot each other's backside or belly.

Extrapolating Archangel's performance in atmosphere, i would like to point out the battle over the Red Sea during phase 23, or 24 of GS. The Archangel can roll over even in atmosphere in order to bring its Gottfried guns to shoot into the ocean. And in the battle of Alaska, the Archangel can dodge missle barrages in an instant.

More recently in phase 34, the Archangel dodged a near point blank range shot of Minerva's Isolde shell cannons by "Leap frogging" over the Minerva. Remember that this was when they were barely a few hundre meters fromeach other.

Minerva has not shown any of fantastic maneuvers such as the ones I cited above as far as I can remember. Well, they did dodge the positron cannon back in the desert so i guess its doesn't skimp on maneuverability. More recently in Phase 42, the Minerva always seem to be able to get behind Archangel. This may be the reason why Maryu chose to submerge the AA, where the AA can attack with impunity at the Minverva.

Now I know in space, most of the friction and difficulty in maneuvering a ship becomes different and disappear since in vacuum, there is no friction. But I'm using their atmosphere capabilities to get a gauge of their maneuverability.

One last comment about the speed comparison between Minerva and Archangel. Archangel since GS, is said to be slower than a Nazca Class Cruiser. Minerva is built to be the fastest ship in ZAFT, meaning its faster than the Nazcas. Which means it is faster than the AA unless AA does some serious upgrading. But AA's only upgrade in GSD is the submersible abilities.

Let's put in another factor into the battle: their respective Executive Officers.

Archangel: Amagi

The former EXO of Takemikazuchi who served Todaka. Almost zero is known about him but he instantly adapted from being a carrier EXO to a battlehsip (AA) EXO. He is first seen as the EXO of AA during the hunting of AA by ZAFT forces in episode 34. He demonstrated excellent knowledge of the AA abilities, using appropriate weapons and remaining cool under pressure despite being outnumbered, outgunned and moreover adopting the NO KILL policy of the AA crew.

Minerva: Arthur Trine.

First of all, I would like to note that as EXO, he hasn't really done anything wrong. He follows his orders, uses the Minerva's weapons to the best of its capabilities (as demonstrated in episode 42 where he nearly scored a shot on the AA using the Parcifal missles if not for the intervention of Mwu La Flaga) and hasn't really panicked in battle.

But for the love of God, are you all sick of his Naruto like expressions whenever something suprising happens? All the "HHHHHHHHUUUUUUUHHHHHH"!!!!! WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO NA, BAKANA!!!! AAAHHHHHH!!!!! Also the guy can't think beyond his small mind, like when Asuran Zala was planning the attack on the desert stronghold. He actually dared to imply that Asuran was afraid or couldn't fly down into the caves to attack the positron cannon RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY. What kind of idiot questions his superior officer? To the idiot, he just happens to think Asuran is a turncoat who came back and can't be trusted, and he could never really accept Asuran back into ZAFT.

None of this is relevant to the battle above, I just wanted to complain about the dickhead Arthur. In Episode 45, he also annoyed me greatly by giving the BIG EXCLAMATION when he announced minerva's mission to attackt he moon base. Oh please, you are still suprised that you are given dificult missions. Please pilot a GINN and get shot please. And I'm talking about the first GINN in Gundam Seed.

[SkyReaper]

Originally posted by: naruto22
One last comment about the speed comparison between Minerva and Archangel. Archangel since GS, is said to be slower than a Nazca Class Cruiser. Minerva is built to be the fastest ship in ZAFT, meaning its faster than the Nazcas. Which means it is faster than the AA unless AA does some serious upgrading. But AA's only upgrade in GSD is the submersible abilities.

But again, to me the dif in speeds is still AT MOST the same diferance as that from a heavyweight compared to a midweight Armored Core. Sorry if I'm getting annoying with this. ^_^;

I'd immagine that a Nazca class battle ship is faster then the AA, but not so much as to make it aweinspireingly diferent. In other words, to me it'd still count as a heavyweight in speed comparison. Just a faster one with the Eternal being a little faster and the Minerva being a little faster then then the Eternal (I'd assume). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

An other thing. With all the manuvering needed in a battle, I doubt that even the minerva could make any serious use of it's speed advantage as any machine will lose speed when turning due to friction and a few other factors that I don't know enough about. ^_^;

To me, a machine that's said to go real fast only means that it'll get from point A to point B before anyone else on a straight lline. Acceleration and manuverability are two other factors and the key elements to be used in battle situations. (Well, ofcourse weaponry, shielding and neat gadgets also count in this. ^_^; )

To finish up, I don't think the minerva has any more carying cappacity then the AA. Well, except for the impulse system which I laughed at when they said it was a new and more eficient way of using a gundam. (With all the spare parts, if those conceptors had half a brain, they would have assinged two other core splendors and pilots to the minerva. THEN it would have been eficient. 3 gundams with interchangeable parts in one ship and room to spare. Heck, if that's spreading the butter too thin, then AT LEAST put a second Core Splendor. Make the most use of those spare parts! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] )

[Aramis]

I'd say that they have equal chances in a fair cat fight. they won't really allow each other to end the fight quickly with the positron cannons, so all they can do is circle around and barrage eachother with turrets and missiles, and the first to score some lucky hits on the other's engine or weaponry will win.
But when either ship gets such an advantage, the opponent will likely try to flee. Archangel can submerge and shoo the Minerva away by continuing to fire from underwater when on the seas, but the Minerva can simply run away whenever they want unless their engines are badly crippled.
SO there's one thing I could say about 'em...the Minerva has better chances to get out alive, but not really win the battle.