Minerva vs Archangel.

[SkyReaper]

Sorry for butting in, SF seems to hold the same opinions on the matter as I have, but I just want to add one little thing.

Even though the Minerva might have better speed then AA, in a battle situation, I don't think the diference is high enough to influence the outcome. A competent pilot, even while using a slightly slower machine will never turn his back to his enemy unless circumstances force him to do so, or if the enemy machine has a VERRY significant diference in speed AND agility.

Anyone here who has experiance at playing Armored Core (Giant robot game for PS2) would know what I'm talking about. An armored core with tank threads can still manuver in ways to keep a midweight in front of him for the entire duration of the battle, unless the midweight decides to fly over the tank, making both machines be back to back. A lightweight on the other hand will have little to no trouble at getting and staying behind the tank.

This might seem a little wierd for me to bring in situations from an other source to back up an argument, but in this case, I believe that anyone with battle experiance would try to do the same, given the oportunity.

[Black_Wing]

I vote archangel since captain Maryu Ramius has the milf factor.

Besides she is a better technican if you look all over in seed the archangel has managed to get thru many tough situations when being prused by zaft or the eaf.
She also has a good relation ship with crew and are more experience.

Minevera crew for the most part does listen to gladys ex. rey and shinn breaking out stellar. Arthur his always liek wowo what do i do and is a bad co captian.

Also the archangel has the kira effect. If you blow it up it will always come back .

there i conclude that AA would indeed own the minerva

[naruto22]

Regarding my earlier aruments FOR Minerva's speed, I realised that I made an error. I was suppose to be depicting a space scenario yet I used data evidence based on an atmospheric situation.

Strike Freedom, I think I erred in bringing up the whole speed thing. In this battle, they won't need speed any more since they already encoutnered one another.

I think the argument should shift to MANERUVERABILITY, not speed.

Remember that both AA and Minerva suffer from a design flaw that focuses all weapons in front. Except for missle launchers and CIWS, they have pratically no weapons in the aft section nor do they have any underneath their bellies as well. So now its a battle of who can shoot each other's backside or belly.

Extrapolating Archangel's performance in atmosphere, i would like to point out the battle over the Red Sea during phase 23, or 24 of GS. The Archangel can roll over even in atmosphere in order to bring its Gottfried guns to shoot into the ocean. And in the battle of Alaska, the Archangel can dodge missle barrages in an instant.

More recently in phase 34, the Archangel dodged a near point blank range shot of Minerva's Isolde shell cannons by "Leap frogging" over the Minerva. Remember that this was when they were barely a few hundre meters fromeach other.

Minerva has not shown any of fantastic maneuvers such as the ones I cited above as far as I can remember. Well, they did dodge the positron cannon back in the desert so i guess its doesn't skimp on maneuverability. More recently in Phase 42, the Minerva always seem to be able to get behind Archangel. This may be the reason why Maryu chose to submerge the AA, where the AA can attack with impunity at the Minverva.

Now I know in space, most of the friction and difficulty in maneuvering a ship becomes different and disappear since in vacuum, there is no friction. But I'm using their atmosphere capabilities to get a gauge of their maneuverability.

One last comment about the speed comparison between Minerva and Archangel. Archangel since GS, is said to be slower than a Nazca Class Cruiser. Minerva is built to be the fastest ship in ZAFT, meaning its faster than the Nazcas. Which means it is faster than the AA unless AA does some serious upgrading. But AA's only upgrade in GSD is the submersible abilities.

Let's put in another factor into the battle: their respective Executive Officers.

Archangel: Amagi

The former EXO of Takemikazuchi who served Todaka. Almost zero is known about him but he instantly adapted from being a carrier EXO to a battlehsip (AA) EXO. He is first seen as the EXO of AA during the hunting of AA by ZAFT forces in episode 34. He demonstrated excellent knowledge of the AA abilities, using appropriate weapons and remaining cool under pressure despite being outnumbered, outgunned and moreover adopting the NO KILL policy of the AA crew.

Minerva: Arthur Trine.

First of all, I would like to note that as EXO, he hasn't really done anything wrong. He follows his orders, uses the Minerva's weapons to the best of its capabilities (as demonstrated in episode 42 where he nearly scored a shot on the AA using the Parcifal missles if not for the intervention of Mwu La Flaga) and hasn't really panicked in battle.

But for the love of God, are you all sick of his Naruto like expressions whenever something suprising happens? All the "HHHHHHHHUUUUUUUHHHHHH"!!!!! WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!! SO NA, BAKANA!!!! AAAHHHHHH!!!!! Also the guy can't think beyond his small mind, like when Asuran Zala was planning the attack on the desert stronghold. He actually dared to imply that Asuran was afraid or couldn't fly down into the caves to attack the positron cannon RIGHT IN FRONT OF EVERYBODY. What kind of idiot questions his superior officer? To the idiot, he just happens to think Asuran is a turncoat who came back and can't be trusted, and he could never really accept Asuran back into ZAFT.

None of this is relevant to the battle above, I just wanted to complain about the dickhead Arthur. In Episode 45, he also annoyed me greatly by giving the BIG EXCLAMATION when he announced minerva's mission to attackt he moon base. Oh please, you are still suprised that you are given dificult missions. Please pilot a GINN and get shot please. And I'm talking about the first GINN in Gundam Seed.

[xat]

Ack, correcting myself on some jargon; I don't know how much mass each vessel is composed of--I had used "weight" before, my bad. As far as AA's upgrades, I myself wouldn't know if there were any unapparent upgrades in AA's tech. The two (Minerva/AA) are of different generations so reality that AA can proficiently compete against the Minerva pushes me towards believing that since its supposed retirement up to its re-use, it may have undergone significant upgrades--including mobility tech (thrusters, etc.). It'd explain why the AA's speed is comparable. On that note it's also possible that the AA's submersive ability is the only 'apparent' upgrade. Other upgrades may not have been mentioned, however they may be there.

[SkyReaper]

Originally posted by: naruto22
One last comment about the speed comparison between Minerva and Archangel. Archangel since GS, is said to be slower than a Nazca Class Cruiser. Minerva is built to be the fastest ship in ZAFT, meaning its faster than the Nazcas. Which means it is faster than the AA unless AA does some serious upgrading. But AA's only upgrade in GSD is the submersible abilities.

But again, to me the dif in speeds is still AT MOST the same diferance as that from a heavyweight compared to a midweight Armored Core. Sorry if I'm getting annoying with this. ^_^;

I'd immagine that a Nazca class battle ship is faster then the AA, but not so much as to make it aweinspireingly diferent. In other words, to me it'd still count as a heavyweight in speed comparison. Just a faster one with the Eternal being a little faster and the Minerva being a little faster then then the Eternal (I'd assume). [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

An other thing. With all the manuvering needed in a battle, I doubt that even the minerva could make any serious use of it's speed advantage as any machine will lose speed when turning due to friction and a few other factors that I don't know enough about. ^_^;

To me, a machine that's said to go real fast only means that it'll get from point A to point B before anyone else on a straight lline. Acceleration and manuverability are two other factors and the key elements to be used in battle situations. (Well, ofcourse weaponry, shielding and neat gadgets also count in this. ^_^; )

To finish up, I don't think the minerva has any more carying cappacity then the AA. Well, except for the impulse system which I laughed at when they said it was a new and more eficient way of using a gundam. (With all the spare parts, if those conceptors had half a brain, they would have assinged two other core splendors and pilots to the minerva. THEN it would have been eficient. 3 gundams with interchangeable parts in one ship and room to spare. Heck, if that's spreading the butter too thin, then AT LEAST put a second Core Splendor. Make the most use of those spare parts! [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img] )

[Aramis]

I'd say that they have equal chances in a fair cat fight. they won't really allow each other to end the fight quickly with the positron cannons, so all they can do is circle around and barrage eachother with turrets and missiles, and the first to score some lucky hits on the other's engine or weaponry will win.
But when either ship gets such an advantage, the opponent will likely try to flee. Archangel can submerge and shoo the Minerva away by continuing to fire from underwater when on the seas, but the Minerva can simply run away whenever they want unless their engines are badly crippled.
SO there's one thing I could say about 'em...the Minerva has better chances to get out alive, but not really win the battle.

[SkyReaper]

I wonder if it'd actually be a good thing to put weapons on the belly? The sturn NEEDS a decent weapon, that much is for sure, but the belly of those ships already have a function. Atmosphearic re-entry shielding. If they started to pack weapons there, wouldn't it reduce the ship's capabilities?

Sorry for the random and out of topic thought. Just poped into my head. ^_^;

Seriously though, there are only two advantages to the Minerva in my opinion. The fact that more of it's weapons can pivot to the side (the beam canons and that shell based gun to which I keep forgetting the name while AA can only pivot it's beam canons sideways and rail canons up/down and maybe lightly to the left/right depending what side is fireing) and the fact that it can get to whatever battlefield in record time.

Oh! It also has nifty deployable wings! </sarcasm>

So I guess in battle, they do have one advantage over the AA, the trick would be to keep the Minerva to the AA's side as much as possible to avoid it's lohengrins and rail canons.

Now I wonder... Why wasn't the AA's rail canons built to pivot enough to cover the sturn and belly to some extent? o_O;

[Curium]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Minerva's speed is further proven in episode 40 where they travelled from Gibraltar Spain (not sure which route they took, either way they have to cross either the Asian continent the Americas (doubtful since Atlantic Federation aka USA is controlling hte Americas.)) in only 1 day. Remember that they only left Gibraltar shortly after ZAFT attacked ORB. And the battle didn't even last one day before the Minerva entered the fray. Archangel took a few weeks to reach Alaska from Egypt/Libya. Granted they were repeatedly attacked but nevertheless, the process took 10 episodes, which can be translated into a day each. Minus 5 days worth of attacks and you get a 5 day journey to Alaska.

To be fair, besides the attacks that happened they had a stop at Orb, and they were moving carefully trying to avoid ZAFT's normal patrols. Orb is somewhere in the south pacific, so it was out of the way when trying to go to Alaska. If the AA had taken a direct route from Africa through the air they probably could have gotten there much quicker.



I was going to point out the AA "acrobatic" maneuvers from SEED and Destiny but others already have. In comparison the two points for the Minerva that were brought up are inaccurate.

First they mentioned it dodging the Lohingrin in episode 18, but the did that by crashing into the ground. Fortunately for them it was just loose sand, and not something more solid.

Second, remember the AA had to basically stop for a brief time to allow the Sky Grasper to land. Assuming the Minerva's pilot has any real skill, I would think they would take advantage of that.

[SkyReaper]

Hey, I never said that the Minerva had much going for it. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

Ooh! It also has a nice helicopter pad in the back! </sarcasm... for real this time>

[naruto22]

Originally posted by: SkyReaper
I wonder if it'd actually be a good thing to put weapons on the belly? The sturn NEEDS a decent weapon, that much is for sure, but the belly of those ships already have a function. Atmosphearic re-entry shielding. If they started to pack weapons there, wouldn't it reduce the ship's capabilities?

Sorry for the random and out of topic thought. Just poped into my head. ^_^;

Seriously though, there are only two advantages to the Minerva in my opinion. The fact that more of it's weapons can pivot to the side (the beam canons and that shell based gun to which I keep forgetting the name while AA can only pivot it's beam canons sideways and rail canons up/down and maybe lightly to the left/right depending what side is fireing) and the fact that it can get to whatever battlefield in record time.

Oh! It also has nifty deployable wings! </sarcasm>

So I guess in battle, they do have one advantage over the AA, the trick would be to keep the Minerva to the AA's side as much as possible to avoid it's lohengrins and rail canons.

Now I wonder... Why wasn't the AA's rail canons built to pivot enough to cover the sturn and belly to some extent? o_O;

I think the design flaw of the AA is that it CAN enter atmosphere. That's why it didn't have any belly weapons. They intended for it to be used as a naval vessel at the same time. But seriously, you would think they would have installed a load of death charges unto Archangel. In phase 23 or24, the pilot of the AA had to roll over the AA to shoot the GOOHNS with the Gottfried cannons.

AA's firepower is all to the front. Same as Minerva. As for pivoting weapons, well Minerva has only 1 more weapon to bear against AA, the Isolde shell cannons. So if they keep fighting side by side, AA will only have one Gottfried cannon and missles agaitns Minerva while Minerva has Isolde, Tristan and missles against Minerva.

But all AA has to do is roll so that its top is facing the Minerva and suddenly, you have 2 Gottfried cannons and 2 Valiant rail guns vs Minerva's 2 Tristans and 1 Isolde.

Again, its a battle of tactics. Whoever is smart enough to get a potshot at the bridge wins.

Ah nuts, I just remembered another advantage Minerva has. It can shield the bridge into a less conspicous position to extend survival possibilities.

[KapsLocked]

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom

Originally posted by: xat
I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.

Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation

Hmm.... I'd think that they stopped the chase because AA got to the sea before Minerva caught up. Even though Minerva may be faster, if the AA got to the sea, it would be very difficult to hit it with weapons that would be effective.

What was the weapon that Minerva used on AA to tear up its armor? Or was it someone else doing that to Minerva?

[xat]

Originally posted by: KapsLocked

Originally posted by: Strike Freedom

Originally posted by: xat
I wonder if episode 34 can shed some light on the speed thing. Minerva pursues the AA, but the only time it actually shows an 'advantage in speed' is after the AA does a hard turn to avoid a head-on collision with Minerva (Minerva's "catch-up" is shown on-screen from another room), although it could be because AA lost speed due to its maneuver. From that point on, Kira told the crew of the AA to direct it towards the sea, and while doing so maintains a fair distance from the Minerva. Towards the conclusion of the episode, someone from the Minerva crew mentions that they're escaping -- I'd think that if Minerva was faster than the AA, such would not have been the case.

Good evidence there, I agree, now my view shifts once again, I will remain neutral on the speed thing...I will do some more research when I have the time...but very good observation

Hmm.... I'd think that they stopped the chase because AA got to the sea before Minerva caught up. Even though Minerva may be faster, if the AA got to the sea, it would be very difficult to hit it with weapons that would be effective.

This begs the question; exactly how far apart were the two?

Again from episode 34, the following gives the rate at which the Minerva caught up with AA:


By the end of the sequence:


This sequence is about two seconds long, if that matters to anyone [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

Note how far the AA got during this sequence vs. Minerva? Yet somehow-perhaps by Fukuda magic or by technical recovery-they (the AA/crew) were able to pick up their pace and even regain whatever distance they had lost from the Minerva, allowing for their escape. Keep in mind this is also against atmospheric conditions. In this case, the Minerva's aerodynamic structure should have allowed it to move faster, whereas the ArchAngel's structure should have provided less of such a benefit--I'm sure some even believe that its structure is even a hinderance to its speed within atmosphere.

[DDBen]

Honestly I have yet to be remotely impressed by the Minerva. Its weapons have all been damaged at one point or another and several times the damage was rather serious. I personally had a Issue in 43 where Neo takes out the Isolde and then later that day with no noteable repair time they are off to space. That completely aside in every battle between the 2 ships the AA has been in a situation where they were completely outnumbered and in several cases in a unfavorable tactical position and the Minerva still couldn't do any serious damage. Yes when the AA was fleeing and specifically avoiding fireing at the Minerva it did damage there engines but that has been the extent of it.

The Minerva to me seems simply to be a subpar carrier ship that at the Beginning of GSD even needed to have Mobile suits on the ship defending it with only one or two units (3 for the one battle with Heine). With which it attacked while 2 suits (rei and Lunimaria) were basically left to guard the ship. In direct contrast the AA is a Battleship essentially made to fight with or without Mobile suits. This to me atleast gives it a HUGE advantage in a one on one battle with the Minerva. Essentially we are compairing a heavily armed battleship to a lightly armed Carrier ship. Note that also both ships are Carriers and I do believe the AA also has a greater storage capacity.

[PSJ]

Archangel wins because that boat got Kira. I win this agrument.

Seriously though, The Archangel got those beam deflector thingies and the Minerva got that slow ass Isolde cannon and one positron cannon. Archangel wins they armament part of this.

Now for mobility. Archangel did 1/4 of a barrel roll in a matter of seconds when the Isolde fired at them, this also shows that the Isolde only can hit targets that doesn't move, god what a shitty gun. We have not seen Minerva do any type of impressive evading yet, it is still one heck of a good ship though. I would call this round a tie even if the Archangel did evade the Isolde that one time. There mobility has shown to be quite similar even though the Minerva has been damage, the Minerva has been in more Full scale battles than the Archangel was back in SEED.

The reason Minerva always had Rey and Luna guard it is because they have been in full scale battles the entire time. When the Archangel were in full scale battles they needed protection from Mwu, Mwu in Strike does the same amount of job Rey and Luna does. Also the storage capacity has nothing to do with ship vs. ship battle.

I would say that the Archangel got a slight advantage over the Minerva since the Archangel got those beam deflectors which probably would be very useful. Archangel also doesn't have an Isolde type cannon, i really hate that useless weapon it has done nothing good in the show it's just slow. Archangel also got 2 positron cannons which means they can fire 2 positron shots in a short ammount of time as opposed to Minerva's 1 shot.

[Black_Wing]

minerva is not the fastest ship in zaft. It would still be the eternal it is shorter than minerva and also weighs less. The enternal only has light weapons and the the two METEOR PACKS

[PSJ]

Eternal is a Clyne faction/three ship alliance ship not a ZAFT ship. You know Lacus got that boat and she ain't with ZAFT.

[Madell]

Zaft made the ship so technicly ZAFT owns that ship buut it is hijacked by CLyne-Faction

[Yukimura]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Eternal is a Clyne faction/three ship alliance ship not a ZAFT ship. You know Lacus got that boat and she ain't with ZAFT.

Let's not forget that ZAFT built Eternal, and thus has the plans for it's engines and such. It's not unlikely that they used or improved on their own design.

As to the battle, EXPERIANCE...

The crew of the Minerva has been through a good number of scuffles and battles, but they mostly started out as well trained rookies, except maybe Talia and Arthur (he's debateable). The ship itself is pretty much still an experiment, it never had a proper shakedown to workout the bugs and things before it was put into service, this is essentially the same as the Archangel was at the beginning, except their crew was almost entirely untrained in operating a ship. The Minerva crew is essentially at a point similar to the Archangel of SEED's last few eps. However the Minerva hasn't had any Yachin Due level battles in space yet. They're only space combat experiance was against one other ship with better tactics which they couldn't take down and against a stationary base with no battleships for defense. The crew has more combat experiance, so by now they ought to know how to react and what to do by instinct not memory.

Unfortunately, the Archangel crew still has far more experiance in Ship-to-Ship combat, especially in space.

While Minerva seemingly has more modern tech, why should we think underwater capability is the only thing they added, but that's speculation...Archangels captain has duked it out with several space capital ships and is still standing, while many of her opponents are not. What is Minerva's kill record? An aircraft carrier that sailed straight at them with no weapons, on Earth. Ramius simply has more knowledge of what to do and not to do in space combat between capital ships. Experiance generally wins over sheer power, (except in Bleach, but that's totally okay)

About the weapons, we've seen that the Tristans and Gottfrieds seem to be pretty much useless against the ablative armors of the two ships. Isolde shots are slow and Valiant's have no range of motion. Only tools actually get hit by positron cannons in the middle of a fight. Basically it'd probobly comedown to missiles, so whoever can use their missiles to the best effect would likely win in the end. (Bajirul Manuver anyone???)

[Splash!]

man, i thought Girty Lue was cooler and better than both Minerva and AA. Damn Djibril had to get into it and signify its doom.

Name: Girty Lue
Unit type: battleship
Manufacturer: Earth Alliance
Operator: Earth Alliance
First deployment: 2 October C.E. 73
Dimensions: overall length 380 meters; overall height unknown
Wingspan: unknown
Weight: unknown
Propulsion: unknown
Equipment and design features: rocket anchor, mounted on main body; Mirage Colloid
Fixed armaments: 6 x "Gottfried Mk.71" 225cm high-energy beam cannon, mounted on forward section; 38 x vertical missile launcher, mounted on main body; 16 x "Igelstellung" multi-barrel CIWS, mounted on main body

hmm seems to lack a positron cannon but its got mirage colloid and its actually got more of the regular armaments than either minerva or AA.

[KapsLocked]

Yeah... I think Djibril is not the best commander for it. The best person that commanded it is probably Neo. :\