ban-kai

[Munsu]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
byakuya's shikai is pretty much like that one guy ishida fought who turned his sword into lots of small flying blades, except better...

the problem with shikais like that, is that the actual skill/strength/speed of the attack is beyond your control. Unless there's a way to train his sword to cover more range or flow faster or something, it's pretty much capped. Then you have shikais like renji, where it's an alteration of the sword that is still completely in the user's control. In those cases, the user can still develop their skill, strength, and speed of the attacks as necessary.

In other words, even if ichigo beat renji's shikai, renji can still develop his shikai further to prove a tougher match next time, while once byakuya's is beaten, then he's pretty much screwed (at least as far as shikais are concerned)

Well, in the world of Bleach physical skill, strength, and speed means shit... It all comes down on your spirit level and how you gain control over it... so as long as you can improve yourself in the spirit department, every shikai should improve...

[Roko]

Then is it also possible to improve your Bankai then? because if you "call" your soul slayer into the world, can the soul slayer improve? Or is there a limit?

[Munsu]

You are speculating that the bankai is when the soul slayer is summoned in to their world, when we still don't know the real nature of what the bankai actually is...

[masamuneehs]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
You are speculating that the bankai is when the soul slayer is summoned in to their world, when we still don't know the real nature of what the bankai actually is...

See episode 45. Yoroichi makes it rather clear that Bankai is "manifestation" of the Soul Slayer, the sword actually becoming the spirit behind it. This is almost exactly opposite of Shikai which has the spirit infuse its energy into the Soul Slayer, empowering the sword and causing the sword's shape to change.

And the animal manifestations, like monkey/snake Zabimaru and Zangetsu the person are the "materialized release", or Bankai.

Still, I have a feeling once Ichigo really gets his bankai skill down and uses it in battle, it will NOT look like Zangetsu, but much more like a Hollow.

[Jadugar]

Originally posted by: Roko
Then is it also possible to improve your Bankai then? because if you "call" your soul slayer into the world, can the soul slayer improve? Or is there a limit?

I believe its possible to improve your Bankai. Remeber when Ichigo had no soul slayer and no powers whatsoever. Look how far he has come. I am sure he will go up another level or two if the events or story demands it. His motto is "fighting is meaning less", he wants to win. As long as he has that will to win he will improve.

[Roko]

Yes, but as Masamuneehs said, "This [Bankai] is almost exactly opposite of Shikai which has the spirit[user] infuse its energy into the Soul Slayer, empowering the sword." Therefore, it is possible for one to improve their Shikai by training and retaining more control over their spirit power. But because Bankai is the exact opposite, and calls the soul slayer into the world, can one still improve?

[Ryllharu]

It probably works the same way. Ichigo has been learning more and more about Zangetsu as the series progresses. He knew nothing of his sword, and was weak. The more he became familiar with the old man, the more powerful he got, eventually to the point where he could defeat Kenpachi, a monster if there ever was one.

The more one becomes acquainted with their zanpakutou, the stronger both get. Even after ban kai, I'm sure Ichigo will still have a lot to learn about it, and the things it can do. The more time spent training with it, one can probably learn how best to use it, and any other abilities the ban kai may have. Time is the only thing that can make it stronger, but after that there is probably a limit, which is full knowledge inside and out of your zanpakutou, including its ban kai form. Probably only a shinigami life span would ever allow one this time.

[Roko]

okay, so let me get this straight: from what I've derived, Bankai improvement is based on the user's control and knowledge over their soul slayer, while Shikai is control over spirit power poured into the sword. So in other words: The Bankai's sword power is set, and improvement depends wholly on the user's knowledge. Shikai, on the other hand, allows for improvement on the sword power based on the user's spirit control. Right?

Getting a bit technical here. Looking at Ryllharu's sig area, I really hope this wasn't a stupid question [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[Ryllharu]

I always thought they both allowed improvement, just in terms of practicing with it's various forms. But as far as I can tell, you pretty much have the same sort of idea I had.

A shikai would get stronger and stonger with either spirit power (like Ichigo's blasts or maybe Tousen's sleep wave, or whatever that was) or with basic weapons practice (like Ikkaku's, Renji's, and the majority of the shikai's we've seen). But Shikai's can't get any stronger unless your will is focused (like the Kenpachi fight, including the speech he gave) and through just learning how it's different form could be utilized.

A bankai (as far as we've seen) would bring you right to the limit of your power instantly. However, the more time you spend with it and again, see the way it can be used in a fight and the various powers it must have (as in Mayuri's gas, assuming that isn't the only kind of bankai). The more time you practice with that, the closer you get to your own limit. Having it probably doesn't mean you are instantly at the peak of your power, because not practicing with it would make fighting with it awkward and inevitably resulting in failure (and probably death). Just having it would boost your power a lot, but knowing every facet of it would let you hit the true height of your limit.

[Roko]

Got it. thanks for the explanation.

[masamuneehs]

My biggest question about Bankai is what happens when they are defeated (as happened to Capt. Mayuri) ?

Can the Soul Slayers die? Or does the person wielding it have to die?

[Y]

Mayuri's sword was still intact, and even fucking up a Zanpakutou really bad (like Renji's) doesn't destroy the spirit inside.

[Jadugar]

Originally posted by: Y
Mayuri's sword was still intact, and even fucking up a Zanpakutou really bad (like Renji's) doesn't destroy the spirit inside.

In ep 38 Zaraki broke Ichico's sword in two pieces that didnt effect him at all. He became even stronger. This means as long as the person is alive he can repair the previous damage done to the soul slayer or even call upon their bankai again.

[dark maginn]

lol i never knew that until now

[Y]

Originally posted by: Jadugar

In ep 38 Zaraki broke Ichico's sword in two pieces that didnt effect him at all. He became even stronger. This means as long as the person is alive he can repair the previous damage done to the soul slayer or even call upon their bankai again.

That is what I was implying, yes.

[Mut]

Y, don't copy what Jadugar said and pretend that that's what you meant.

[Y]

Originally posted by: Mut@chi
Y, don't copy what Jadugar said and pretend that that's what you meant.

I hate you so much.

[Jadugar]

Y, don't copy what Jadugar said and pretend that that's what you meant.

Let him be the center of attention. He likes it.

[Y]

Originally posted by: Jadugar


Let him be the center of attention. He likes it.

What the fuck is this shit?

[Munsu]

Your dad, don't you recognize him?