translation

[Hikyuu]

At first, I was not sure were I should post this topic. But after much deliberation ( a couple of seconds) I have decided it belongs in the general discussion area. If a moderator deems it necessary to move, so be it.
Having been a fan of anime and Japanese culture alike, I have noticed the coolness of incorporating other languages, such as English, into songs, commercials, signs, and so forth. An example of this would be Pop is dead by Miyavi (where I'm quite positive he has no idea what he is talking about...) But, most people know that. What might be overlooked though, is that this also happens in the other lingual direction.
It is my opinion that when one makes a fan sub or even a professional subbing, that there is a delicate line that can often be crossed. To have a quality sub one must translate but not over translate. Of course what I mean by this is keep some of the words in the original language. If you were to translate kamehameha..(Which I refuse to do) It ends up something to the effect of& Turtle wave... How ridiculous would that sound coming out of someone's mouth(just a little bit worse then kamehameha). This level of translation adds a "coolness" on the importation of anime. If you were a Japanese child, only reason that would sound somewhat cool to you ( lets say age 8 and I'm only using DBZ since it was easier then typing Soul Slayer a lot) would be because it was inbred into you to hear such silly lines come out of characters "O" shaped mouths. Anyway, I"m getting of track.. Some of the subbing groups just don"t understand this. Instead of attacks or expressions, you end up with a bunch of jargon (one reason I like Aone subs is they keep expressions translated and often put a description of what it means but not a literal translation). Because the word or words are not translated for you it forces you to place meaning on them a from the context in which they are used(which may or may not be correct). When one does this it forms a sympathetic bond between anime and watcher of sorts..
I have talked to much.. You may now discuss either side of the topic and poke away at my conclusion..

[SK]

what the fuck.
this seems more like a blog entry.

[Hikyuu]

Originally posted by: SK
what the fuck.
this seems more like a blog entry.

pfft last time I vote to unban you [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[XanBcoo]

I was talking to this guy on AIM about this yesterday.
I said in most cases I'd rather hear "Kage Bunshin no jutsu" than "Art of the Doppleganger" (as in the Viz translation)

He said I was dumb, because "Art of the Doppleganger" is what the Japanese heard. He called me a fucktard and blocked me...loser.

Whatever the case, I prefer what AonE does. That is, putting the translation at the top and leaving some words in Jap.

[Psyke]

Originally posted by: xanbcoo
I was talking to this guy on AIM about this yesterday.
I said in most cases I'd rather hear "Kage Bunshin no jutsu" than "Art of the Doppleganger" (as in the Viz translation)

He said I was dumb, because "Art of the Doppleganger" is what the Japanese heard. He called me a fucktard and blocked me...loser.

Whatever the case, I prefer what AonE does. That is, putting the translation at the top and leaving some words in Jap.

"Art of the Doppleganger" is what the Japanese hears? That is totally wrong. For the unenlightened:

Kage = Shadow
Bu = Split
shin = Body
(Bushin = clone)
jutsu = skill/art

I'd go with Kage Bushin no Jutsu anytime over the Doppleganger shit.

[Assertn]

What do they call "Bunshin no jutsu"?
Art of the Wannabe Doppleganger?

[PSJ]

"Art of the wannabe dobbelganger" best one today.

To stick to the first part of this post about using other languages in commercials or everyday life in general is i think quite normal. Here in Sweden we have incorparated alot of both german and english words that is used in everday life, the english more so than the german. We know what they mean tho [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: Psyke
"Art of the Doppleganger" is what the Japanese hears? That is totally wrong. For the unenlightened:

Kage = Shadow
Bu = Split
shin = Body
(Bushin = clone)
jutsu = skill/art

I'd go with Kage Bushin no Jutsu anytime over the Doppleganger shit.

I know I know
The guy was a moron AND a loser.
I would even prefer something like "Shadow Clone Skill" to Doppleganger. I hope the dub will take a different approach than the manga has.

@assertn: for the record, they just call it a "replication". Though "wannabe doppleganger" would definitely make it more interesting.

Also, it's really in the Japanese culture to incorporate different langauges into their own (engrish anyone?). I don't really know the extent that this happens in America though.

[ChaosK]

i always wondered, i know hokage in naruto means like "head of fire village" but, they said the prefix "ho" means fire and we know kage means shadow, so i dont think this makes sense...fireshadow? (for konoha it makes sense because they're techniques focus on fire and shadow, but what about other countries?) Kazekage? sandshadow? could somebody with japanese skills translate these words litertaly or are these made up words just for naruto?

[XanBcoo]

A "Kage" is the head of a villiage in Naruto.
There are 5 Kage - one in each of the five countries.
In Japanese:
Ho = Fire
Kaze = Wind
Rai = Lightning
Mizu = Water
and I forget the last one, but I think it means Rock

So for every villaige, the Kage is named after the respective country
Land of Fire: HOkage (of konoha villiage) - or fireshadow
Land of Wind: KAZEkage (of the sand villiage)- or windshadow
etc...

confusion mitigated

[Death BOO Z]

art of the doppelganger is probably one of the worst choices for Kage bunshin (Shadow clone).

as far as my D&D experince goes, doppelgangers are cretuers who transform and impersonate other people, therefore, it's also a good name for the henge skills.
more than that, 'Bunshin' and 'Kage Bunshin' are the same, so in english it should be 'clone/replecate/multiply' and 'shadow clone/replecate...", but having a diffrent word for it makes the viewers think that they are entierly diffrent skills.

[Mae]

It is pretty common for words from one language to jump over to another. Especially in American English, which borrows from pretty much everything. As far as I know only the French are really uptight about maintaining the "purity" of their language.

As for fansubbers, if there is some word or phrase commonly used I like it best when they give both the Japanese and and English explanation the first few times then switch over to just the Japanese. Some Japanese words don't have clear one-word equivalents in English, so using the Japanese after explaining it perserves more of the original meaning. For instance, "nakama" in One Piece really means more than just "friend." To me getting new words/concepts is a nice bonus, but I'm sure it's annoying to others. The fansubbers can't please everyone no matter what they do, so I think they should translate however they like best.

As for our conversation here. I personally don't care if people occasionally use borrowed Japanese words or phrases. Yeah, this can be overdone, like l33t and emoticons can be overdone and annoying, but most of us know common words like sumimasen or banzai, so whatever.

Oh, and when writing long or wandering posts remember : Paragraphs are your friend.

[Hikyuu]

Mae.. they were paragraphs.. they some how unparagraphed though o.o..and guys think a little bit broader then just the one exampleofnaruto.. If I wanted just that.. I would have put this in the open naruto discussion ^^

[ChaosK]

the kage question was just one i had

and the tab button doesnt work because on forums, it serves the purpose of moving from the typing box, to the button that says "reply to topic"

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: Mae
As for our conversation here. I personally don't care if people occasionally use borrowed Japanese words or phrases. Yeah, this can be overdone, like l33t and emoticons can be overdone and annoying, but most of us know common words like sumimasen or banzai, so whatever.

That reminds me
The same guy who I mentioned earlier also called me Wapanese loser for using "sou ka" when I talked to him.
I'm never posting on ANN again...

Wapanese = white-Japanese; or, a non-native of japan using Japanese terms

So in response to Hikyuu's prompt:
How acceptable is it for us, as anime fans, to integrate Japanese terms into our speech. I only use "sou ka" when on AIM/MSN/Yahoo and I only do it to get that "old-Japanese-guy-I-see" effect. That's really the only thing I use, and I never do it in real life. So, does anyone else actually use what they know of Japanese? Other thoughts concerning this?

(I'm referring of course to those who haven't actually learned the language and, like me, only pick up what they hear in anime/jpop/games/etc - which is surprisingly a lot)

[Hikyuu]

I have said thinks before... Like.. Butabara from a video interview of gacktwhere he is talking about making his famous chili.. also thinks like Itadakimasu can slip in here or there. One more would have to be from watching The Karate Kid one to many times making me say yosho or whatever... though the last syllable gets dropped... I have only had one year of japanese a language, but It will be my major. All goes according that year will of experience will double or triple..
P.S... Oh remembered one more.. Daijoubu ka? or just daijoubu.. Come to think of it alot of the words that Ihavent been formally taught that are in anime I understand.Due to the feeling the character conveys its akin to actually knowing what they say.. but getting ahead of myself and off topic again.. and rambly..

[darkshadow]

Originally posted by: Chaoskiddo
i always wondered, i know hokage in naruto means like "head of fire village" but, they said the prefix "ho" means fire and we know kage means shadow, so i dont think this makes sense...fireshadow? (for konoha it makes sense because they're techniques focus on fire and shadow, but what about other countries?) Kazekage? sandshadow? could somebody with japanese skills translate these words litertaly or are these made up words just for naruto?

i read something about that, it was actually pretty deep, it was like, the shadow that the flame of a candle casts on others, not sure any more what it was exactly like, but i think it means that the "hokage" stands above all and stands in the light for everyone to notice while others of less importance stay in the shadow

[XanBcoo]

Originally posted by: darkshadow

Originally posted by: Chaoskiddo
i always wondered, i know hokage in naruto means like "head of fire village" but, they said the prefix "ho" means fire and we know kage means shadow, so i dont think this makes sense...fireshadow? (for konoha it makes sense because they're techniques focus on fire and shadow, but what about other countries?) Kazekage? sandshadow? could somebody with japanese skills translate these words litertaly or are these made up words just for naruto?

i read something about that, it was actually pretty deep, it was like, the shadow that the flame of a candle casts on others, not sure any more what it was exactly like, but i think it means that the "hokage" stands above all and stands in the light for everyone to notice while others of less importance stay in the shadow

Or it can mean exactly what I said 7 posts ago...
Where are you getting this metaphor from? It sounds interesting but I don't think it's the case.

[Deblas]

With One Piece. 4kids had at least the decency to keep the original attacks in japanese. But I'm not sure if they call themselves Nakama or friends in the dubs. All of the One Piece watchers know how extremely important this word is to the world of One Piece.