Bombs in London

[Munsu]

The problem is that we are not fighting Osama per se... we are fighting Countries that harbor them, that allow them to roam freely... that's the big problem... Countries that allow these individuals to do as they please... So the US has to stop that bull shit and it is now, not tomorrow, but now if we don't want another disaster like 9-11... If your response is that we don't give a damn (like Afghanistan's was) then we'll tear you apart... and like that we instil fear on Countries that insist on protecting these know terrorist...

I fear my daddy, hence I don't dare lay a finger on him...

A War wouldn't be needed if every country would just fucking realize that these individuals do no good for the benefit of the World, and everyone should do anything possible to find them and stop them...

[weakest anbu]

ahahah you actually believe that "war on terrorism" bullshit. the truth is its all about the oil mmmmm oil mmmm middle east control mmmm delicious.

[Munsu]

well as a consequence we gain a couple of Oil wells, I'm all for it [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

Still, I think the US will play it's cards right this time around and leave the Oil under Middle East Control, but that's yet to be seen...

That the US used Osama and Sadam as an excuse, then so be it... it was their fault for letting it come to this in the first place..

And if the US really wanted total cotrol over that Oil, they could have easily done so in the Gulf War...

[Turkish-S]

Originally posted by: weakest anbu
ahahah you actually believe that "war on terrorism" bullshit. the truth is its all about the oil mmmmm oil mmmm middle east control mmmm delicious.

yea and the only one's who notice this and dares to do something back are the terrorist..

BIG P.S. i don't mean with this post that the terrorist are doing a good thing.

[intense]

Originally posted by: Budweineken


And if the US really wanted total cotrol over that Oil, they could have easily done so in the Gulf War...

that was before Bush. Now that US has a new dictator, values and leadership channges, maybe Bush is all out oil? we may never know.

[Munsu]

ironically back then it was this current President's dad... so I don't think they differ that much in opinion, only thing that's different are the circumstances sorrounding them... and this time it's more personal

[weakest anbu]

Originally posted by: turkish-shikamaru
yea and the only one's who notice this and dares to do something back are the terrorist..

BIG P.S. i don't mean with this post that the terrorist are doing a good thing.

terrorist? do you mean the US soldiers who killed more innocent ppl in iraq than 911+this incident combine? its just a matter of perspectives. To me killing ppl with a rifle is no better than killing ppl with a bomb attaching to your body.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: weakest anbu
terrorist? do you mean the US soldiers who killed more innocent ppl in iraq than 911+this incident combine? its just a matter of perspectives. To me killing ppl with a rifle is no better than killing ppl with a bomb attaching to your body.

Except there is a difference between innocent people getting caught in crossfire, and strapping a bomb to yourself and blowing yourself up in a public area full of innocent bystanders.

Suicidal bombers blow themselves up killing many people with them in order for the 'greater good'. Whatever that means.

[Munsu]

And whose fault is it that so many innocents died in Iraq? I blame the Iraq administration for making civilians sleep in the targets that the US were gonna bomb... it's a miracle that more of them didn't die... the message is clear, US will no tolarate this bullshit anymore and wont be man-handled by coward tactics

[weakest anbu]

nah I rather place the blame on bush who started the shit. i dont believe that "cant find binladen bullshit" if the US really want to find someone... theres no place to hide. like i said its all mmm oil mmmmmm

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
And whose fault is it that so many innocents died in Iraq? I blame the Iraq administration for making civilians sleep in the targets that the US were gonna bomb... it's a miracle that more of them didn't die... the message is clear, US will no tolarate this bullshit anymore and wont be man-handled by coward tactics

You mean tactics like these? This isn't a white and black issue. They aren't the absolute evil and you are certainly not the absolute good. Violence like this only inspires more acts of vengeance. It's a pointless circle of wanton destruction and as things are looking now it will never end.

[Masamune]

condolences to all people who lost someone or got injured in the bombing

[DB_Hunter]

Originally posted by: Budweineken
And whose fault is it that so many innocents died in Iraq? I blame the Iraq administration for making civilians sleep in the targets that the US were gonna bomb... it's a miracle that more of them didn't die... the message is clear, US will no tolarate this bullshit anymore and wont be man-handled by coward tactics

So the world has to do what the US likes then...

The US has never tolerated something it hasn't liked if it could help it... nothing new there. The thing is now that you can only squeeze a people so much before something will give. I'm not talking 9/11 style here, but more in the sense of a revolution of sorts. I'm not sure how closely you follow world politics and events, but the US is losing its grip. It most certainly is not the power it once was. It's not simply about the Middle Eastern world that's under attack, but the entire Muslim world in one way or another. The populations of the Muslim countries have been abused to an unacceptable degree by US supported governments, like those of Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan (who boils his opponents to death among other things), Mubarak of Egypt, Musharraf of Pakistan... the list is quite long.

Its not that the people in these countries have nothing better to do in their lives than go and try to kill everyone. Their frustration is composed of not being allowed political dissent, progress and having their resource rich lands plundered by foreign powers. They don't see the West as a moral entity... look at the Libyan case for example. Gaddafi himself hasn't changed, his regime is the same. All he has done is handed over some WMD equipment to allay the concerns of Western countries so people like Tony Blair are now meeting with him. He is still the same ruthless tyrant as before.

I think ultimatly what will happen is something that the US wishes to prevent... the merging of all these lands into one superstate, the Caliphate. Naturally, as a State with its own aims and objectives it won't be willing to do the bidding of the US like the current regime's do... the US has good reason to try and prevent such a State from rising. A State like that would control crucial routes like the Suez Canal, not to mention the vast oil wealth of the Middle East, as well as all the other resources.

[Assertn]

Originally posted by: DB_Hunter
Would you rather I insult you? I don't think that would be very prodcutive. It seems though you are just intent on winning the argument for the sake of it, and are trying to score points of any issue you can.

You already insulted me. The line of civility was crossed when you tried to assume what my views were and then accuse them of being narrow.

Newsflash for you..... all along I have been talking about ideas... that this is a war of ideas. Ideas are confined to the realm of the mind, not geographical location. You think only people living in the US and UK think what these nations are doing is correct?

I dont even really know how to respond to this one. It doesnt even seem relevant to the argument =/

Let me try and make this simple for you...

Just tell me who you think intiated this war and why.

Clearly the terrorists did.....any relations America had with bin laden before this ordeal were on more peaceful grounds. Why did they start it? Beliefs. They are part of organizations where their beliefs conflict with ours, and so the acts they perform against us is considered honorable to their culture and their religion. In cases like these, how would you expect to propose peace?

Originally posted by: Nai
You mean tactics like these? This isn't a white and black issue. They aren't the absolute evil and you are certainly not the absolute good. Violence like this only inspires more acts of vengeance. It's a pointless circle of wanton destruction and as things are looking now it will never end.

"Wounded, another Iraqi writhes on the ground next to his gun."
The first sentence is key here. Sounds to me like that iraqi is just another of those idiots that are the reason for both marine and civilian casualties in Iraq.

[Mut]

I like how everyone keeps on bringing up 'circle of violence'. Okay, then how do you think a nation should resolve this matter? You are dealing with people who will set off bombs in places that have nothing to do with a country's military. That's just nothing but cowardly cheap shots on their part.

Originally posted by: DB_Hunter
I think ultimatly what will happen is something that the US wishes to prevent... the merging of all these lands into one superstate, the Caliphate. Naturally, as a State with its own aims and objectives it won't be willing to do the bidding of the US like the current regime's do... the US has good reason to try and prevent such a State from rising. A State like that would control crucial routes like the Suez Canal, not to mention the vast oil wealth of the Middle East, as well as all the other resources.

It's called, economic dominance. A powerful economy is a portrayal of a nation's growth, wealth, and power. If countries like Japan, France, UK, etc didn't want to be economically powerful, they would just share their technology and the resources they have freely with everyone else. But they don't because they want to show that they are just as powerful as the next country. It's all a matter of greed really.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: AssertnFailure
"Wounded, another Iraqi writhes on the ground next to his gun."
The first sentence is key here. Sounds to me like that iraqi is just another of those idiots that are the reason for both marine and civilian casualties in Iraq.

Idiot? The man was heavily wounded and disarmed. What the marines did in that clip was not acceptable by any means. It was plain murder. They shot a man who posed no threat and then celebrated that action. Can you imagine the outcry had that man been an American executed by Iraqis? Once again, America aren't the universal good guys here to save the earth in this conflict. In fact, they are just as bad as the "terrorists" they fight when commiting atrocities like these.

Originally posted by: Mut@chi
I like how everyone keeps on bringing up 'circle of violence'. Okay, then how do you think a nation should resolve this matter? You are dealing with people who will set off bombs in places that have nothing to do with a country's military. That's just nothing but cowardly cheap shots on their part.

Not lash out at a random Arab country, that's for certain. In fact, that's pretty much the dumbest idea you can do when you're dealing with fighting an ideal. No matter how many of these "terrorists" you kill it won't kill their ideals. That's a lesson the previous Crusade should have taught people. You only make them martyrs of their cause. Martyrs, who will later on inspire a new generation as immortalized heroes.

[Mut]

The problem I have with the people screaming out 'stop the violence' is that they propose no logical resolution. They stand in the back screaming out what they think should be done and yet, take no action or even suggest what would be a reasonable resolution to this matter. Yelling out 'stop the violence' is pointless and a waste of time if you aren't going to explain your stance.

I'd really like to hear what you anti-war people think should happen.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Mut@chi
The problem I have with the people screaming out 'stop the violence' is that they propose no logical resolution. They stand in the back screaming out what they think should be done and yet, take no action or even suggest what would be a reasonable resolution to this matter. Yelling out 'stop the violence' is pointless and a waste of time if you aren't going to explain your stance.

My stance is rather obvious in that that I utterly detest pointless warfare akin to this. Sadly, I really can't offer a cure for human stupidity. Much like I can't offer the perfect cure for HIV. I can however tell you that this specific war did not have to occur. In fact, most of the reasons behind it were complete and utter lies. And I for one sincerely doubt Americans would have supported it if not for 9/11 and the animosity and fear it created towards Arab countries.

Really, what did you expect would happen after attacking Iraq? Did you expect everything to become like in a fairytale? No, of course not. America attacked their home, stole their pride and stomped on their cities. Can you blame them for being angered and wanting to extract revenge by spilling the blood of Americans or Britts? There's really no doubt in my mind that King George's latest crusade has furthered the ideals of terrorism in this world.

Fight it with education and good intentions. Not weapons and hate ( cheesy, I know ). Show people that the image painted by these extremists of America as a nation of butchers is untrue. That's really the only way I can see long lasting peace ever happen.

[Mut]

What are you talking about... I'm talking about what London should do in regards of the bombing not 9/11, Iraq war, etc. Whoever the terrorists were, they attack London, not the US, so I wanted to know what you guys think London should do about this. Should they retaliate or sit down and share bed time stories?

Originally posted by: Nai
Fight it with education and good intentions. Not weapons and hate ( cheesy, I know ). Show people that the image painted by these extremists of America as a nation of butchers is untrue. That's really the only way I can see long lasting peace ever happen.

Oh my god, wow. How are these ideals going to be fought with education and good intentions? You want people to ignore what happened and start busting out books to educate the mass? That'll take decades, probably more. And by 'more', I really mean never. The people of Great Britain need to figure out a way to take care of the situation NOW, not years and years later.

Let's look at racism in the US. Are books going to solve the ideal of one race is superior to another?

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Mut@chi
What are you talking about... I'm talking about what London should do in regards of the bombing not 9/11, Iraq war, etc. Whoever the terrorists were, they attack London, not the US, so I wanted to know what you guys think London should do about this. Should they retaliate or sit down and share bed time stories?

Retaliate against WHO would be my question then. Another random Arab country? No, definitely not. They should definitely do their utmost to apprehend the people responsible for it. This should not serve to fuel yet another war campaign, however.

Originally posted by: Mut@chi
Oh my god, wow. How are these ideals going to be fought with education and good intentions? You want people to ignore what happened and start busting out books to educate the mass? That'll take decades, probably more. And by 'more', I really mean never. The people of Great Britain need to figure out a way to take care of the situation NOW, not years and years later.

Let's look at racism in the US. Are books going to solve the ideal of one race is superior to another?

Will weapons solve anything?

Will invading yet another country deal with the situtation or will it merely serve to satiate the bloodlust?

Will launching a crusade on the Middle East create peace?

No, not really. Education is the only cure for ignorance as far as I know. And it certainly would take time to cure all the ignorance in this world. This is by no means an instant solution. If you know of a superior one, feel free to share.