Phase 35 is out (RAW)

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Blues
Are you kidding me? You know what would happen if Asuran did that? Firing squad! He killed Shinn Asuka right after Shinn destroyed the Freedom. Yeah....ZAFT is REALLY going to smile upon that.

"Mr Zala, can you explain your justification in murdering Shinn Asuka after said pilot defeated the Freedom, a unit that was labeled as an enemy of Zaft"

I'd like to see him get out of that.

The punch was only justifiable from a personal point of view. Like I said, I can understand why he did it, but it's an entirely personal thing.

And really, could you say Shinn was going out of his way to harass his Superior Officer? From Shinn's point of view, Asuran was giving him flak for following his orders. So it could be said that Zala started it.

And for those who say that Shinn did it because of a grudge after Kira killed Stellar, you're condemming Shinn for doing something because of personal reasons, but you praise Asuran for decking Shinn, also for a personal reason.

Bottom line is this Shinn Asuka is not Kira Yamato. IMO, he's better, because he's not the typical whiney crybaby who hates war but is being forced to fight...it was fine with Amuro Ray, but after 26 years of it....I'm tired of it....That's why I liked Kamille Budan in Zeta...he broke the mold....same thing here with Shinn. If people would get past hating him, they'll see that he is actually a complex character...and after spending two years in his shoes, I challenge you to not end up as arroagant and vengeful as he is.

I was not personally saying that Athran would get away with shooting shin in this case. The point is that those in Faith can do whatever they want. They answer only personally to Dullindale so unless he says that in such a case Athran was specifically wrong in his actions he has the abosolute right to do it.

Athran was pissed at Shinn he went to see him return and when attempting to avoid a altrication with Shinn. Shinn specifically started a fight and saying things he KNEW would bother Athran.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: DDBen


I was not personally saying that Athran would get away with shooting shin in this case. The point is that those in Faith can do whatever they want. They answer only personally to Dullindale so unless he says that in such a case Athran was specifically wrong in his actions he has the abosolute right to do it.

Athran was pissed at Shinn he went to see him return and when attempting to avoid a altrication with Shinn. Shinn specifically started a fight and saying things he KNEW would bother Athran.

While FAITH can do whatever they want, I don't think that killing a comrade would be something they could get away with. Dullindal didn't want Shinn dead in the first place, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excuse it.

Maybe in Shinn's eyes, Asuran would give him hell for following orders.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Blues
While FAITH can do whatever they want, I don't think that killing a comrade would be something they could get away with. Dullindal didn't want Shinn dead in the first place, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excuse it.

Maybe in Shinn's eyes, Asuran would give him hell for following orders.

You are completely missing the point of this statement. I'm not directly stating Athrun should have shot Shinn. I'm stating that being a member of Faith given him that right and as such slugging him is the least of what he could have done had he cared to used his actual position.

[NineTailsKitsu]

Being a member of Faith only really boils down to Asuran having an opinion in a given military situation, and the freedom to choose what he wishes to do. HOWEVER, It does'nt matter whether ' you want to do it or not' or 'but, but, but, Kira's my friend!' when it comes to orders. The Minerva was ordered to shoot down an enemy, that being the Archangel. Shinn, the ace pilot of the Minerva, was ordered to destroy the enemy: that being Kira. Just because it happened that Shinn wanted to kill Kira anyway is just circumstance, for Shinn it was killing two birds with one stone, a mindset useful in his given situation. For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.

''" Know your facts before you post something"'' heh....that's pretty funny.

[Sano]

Why does Dullindal want the Archangel gone? I thought he praised the Archangel's action from the previous war in the begnning of the series, and wanted the Minerva to "take a role similar to the Archangel's from the last war." I quoted that from Dullindal. Isn't that also that the reason Talia was made a member of FAITH? From watching the series, it seems Talia and Athuran aren't using their powers from being in FAITH very much at all. Even though the order to destroy the AA came from the Council, Talia could have objected/questioned the order as a member of Faith.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.

Lets put something strait here. Shinn is a child, who has to be treated like a child in order to get him to follow orders. He is insurbordinate, and so far, has not been punished (he got out of being executed). He is driven by anger, and acts without orders or the best interest of ZAFT in mind. He knew very well an extended's body would be valuable to researchers, but he took off in a mobile suit (thats probably court marshiable, but was ignored because he is "Mr. Super Ace") and dumped the body in a lake.

Athrun, was a retired soldier who decided that he could no longer sit by when the second war began. He made the decision, at the beginning of the series, that ZAFT was doing the right thing and so he lent his support to them. INSTEAD of putting him in a normal chain of command, and INSTEAD of treating him like a soldier, Dulindal put him in Faith where he would have the autonomy he required. At no point, at all, has Athrun been treated like or considered a soldier by ZAFT administration, and we shouldn't hold him to that standard either.

Athruns biggest mistake was not bailing on ZAFT when he had a badass mobile suit and he saw Kira had a reason to be opposing ZAFT. He shoulda bailed when he saw smoke, instead of waiting for the whole thing to start to burn around him.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
Being a member of Faith only really boils down to Asuran having an opinion in a given military situation, and the freedom to choose what he wishes to do. HOWEVER, It does'nt matter whether ' you want to do it or not' or 'but, but, but, Kira's my friend!' when it comes to orders. The Minerva was ordered to shoot down an enemy, that being the Archangel. Shinn, the ace pilot of the Minerva, was ordered to destroy the enemy: that being Kira. Just because it happened that Shinn wanted to kill Kira anyway is just circumstance, for Shinn it was killing two birds with one stone, a mindset useful in his given situation. For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.

''" Know your facts before you post something"'' heh....that's pretty funny.

This was no coincidence, Dullindale has been grooming Shinn to take down Freedom from day 1. Thats why he has the impulse and why after destroy and getting the report that Dullindale decided to send them after the AA. The reason being he knows Shinn purely runs on emotions and at the time he blamed Kira for the death of Stellar. Shinn is nothing more then one of Dullindales pawns which is why when they showed the chess board the black pawn was in place to take out the white rook which signifies the AA.

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Lets put something strait here. Shinn is a child, who has to be treated like a child in order to get him to follow orders. He is insurbordinate, and so far, has not been punished (he got out of being executed). He is driven by anger, and acts without orders or the best interest of ZAFT in mind. He knew very well an extended's body would be valuable to researchers, but he took off in a mobile suit (thats probably court marshiable, but was ignored because he is "Mr. Super Ace") and dumped the body in a lake.

I agree with much of your statement except for Stellars body as it was useless to Zaft being they already had pleanty of data from dead and disected extended this was the same reason they wanted to deliver her alive to Gebralter.

[kinggalaxia]

wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Blues]

Originally posted by: kinggalaxia
wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why. [img][/img]

Well I can be assure we won't agree on EVERYTHING. But I do feel pretty damn strongly about this particular topic. Especially when it comes to Kira and Shinn and their respective fans.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: kinggalaxia
wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why. [img][/img]

To me atleast its pretty clear that Shinn was the black pawn. This is because when he went up against the AA and freedom I see him as having taken Kira's piece which would be the white knight or white King this hasn't really been stated yet but I assume Djibril is more likely the white king. In place of that the black pawn is at a position to either take out the white rook which to me is the AA. If he had taken out the AA he would have made it to the other side and become a piece of his choosing. As the AA choose to run that to me represents the black pawn making it to the other side without taking out the rook. This still means that Shinn becomes a differn't piece (in this case by being given destiny). The pawn on the other hand could represent the entire minerva and no just Shinn but either way the result is the same.

@MeroTZ your statement was correct Shinn is indeed a character I like the writting behind but hate on a much more personal level.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Now there seems to be alot of controversy over the punch that Athrun gave Shinn. I don't think Athrun was ever gonna hit Shinn. It wasn't until Shinn said something about Athrun wanting Shinn to have been shot down by Kira, that really pissed Athrun off. Athrun doesn't hate Shinn at all from what I see. Throughout the series ,up until Savior got shot down, Athrun has been trying to theach Shinn and help him with his listening/respect problem. Heck, I think Athrun even tried to extend the arms of friendship towards Shinn. He also definatily didn't want Shinn to get shot down by Kira at all. The only thing that I see Athrun disliking Shinn for is the way Shinn goes about handling things. Like DDBen said, for all Athrun cared he could've shot Shinn right betwenn the eyes seeing as he has the authority to do so but, he didn't. All he did was grab him until Shinn started talking about getting shot down. Now I'll agree that Athrun has done about nothing sime Savior was totaled but, this ep just shows you that he has maintained his brains and maturity even over his moping period. Oh, and for those of you who say that Athrun has done nothing this entire series but mope and be a pussy, watch this series again. He did alot up until he lost Savior.

It seems to me that the only army personel on the Minerva with half a brain are Athrun and Talia. They seem to know the line between what orders to obey and what orders to disobey. Talia gave the AA last ep a chance to surrender at least. For those of you who don't know yes that would've been against orders. And Athrun, well he is gonna desert. And yes deserting is really bad.

Now the Rey touching Shinn. It isn't because he is gay. That was just a joke. This is probably so that Shinn will feel more like Rey's friend and so that Shinn feels... I don't know secure or something. This in turn makes it a bit easier for Shinn to be controlled.

As for being soldiers, Shinn and athrun suck as soldiers.

And I am not a Shinn-hater. He is accually pretty cool.(except his attitude)

Edit: Kira and the AA got what they deserved. I was a bit happy when the freedom was destroyed. Athrun even warned them but they just kept going. They even fucked up Athrun in the process. I was even happy and laughing when Shinn shot at Cagalli to shut her up. This is another reason Shinn is cool too.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
Shinn is a little kid with a gun. By all rights he should be dead right now seeing all this crap that he has done. The only reason that he is alive is because Dullindal wants him to be.

Now there seems to be alot of controversy over the punch that Athrun gave Shinn. I don't think Athrun was ever gonna hit Shinn. It wasn't until Shinn said something about Athrun wanting Shinn to have been shot down by Kira, that really pissed Athrun off. Athrun doesn't hate Shinn at all from what I see. Throughout the series ,up until Savior got shot down, Athrun has been trying to theach Shinn and help him with his listening/respect problem. Heck, I think Athrun even tried to extend the arms of friendship towards Shinn. He also definatily didn't want Shinn to get shot down by Kira at all. The only thing that I see Athrun disliking Shinn for is the way Shinn goes about handling things. Like DDBen said, for all Athrun cared he could've shot Shinn right betwenn the eyes seeing as he has the authority to do so but, he didn't. All he did was grab him until Shinn started talking about getting shot down. Now I'll agree that Athrun has done about nothing sime Savior was totaled but, this ep just shows you that he has maintained his brains and maturity even over his moping period. Oh, and for those of you who say that Athrun has done nothing this entire series but mope and be a pussy, watch this series again. He did alot up until he lost Savior.

It seems to me that the only army personel on the Minerva with half a brain are Athrun and Talia. They seem to know the line between what orders to obey and what orders to disobey. Talia gave the AA last ep a chance to surrender at least. For those of you who don't know yes that would've been against orders. And Athrun, well he is gonna desert. And yes deserting is really bad.

Now the Rey touching Shinn. It isn't because he is gay. That was just a joke. This is probably so that Shinn will feel more like Rey's friend and so that Shinn feels... I don't know secure or something. This in turn makes it a bit easier for Shinn to be controlled.

As for being soldiers, Shinn and athrun suck as soldiers.

And I am not a Shinn-hater. He is accually pretty cool.(except his attitude)

BRILLIANT! Seriously, great post. Very good points about how Athrun has tried to help Shinn out, and how much Athrun has accomplished up till this point. I mean, really, wasn't the whole plan to knock out that Lohengrin his?

As for Rey, I'd almost say he is doing with a plan what Flay did to Kira. he is totally mindf***ing Shinn so as to get him to do what he wants, which appears to be to kill lots of people.

[kinggalaxia]

Hehehe, this is turning into psychoanalysis vs. enjoyment of character. This is great!!

AND philosophy. The definition of a soldier...the line between right and wrong. You know when fans verbally beat each other over their views of these and other things that it is a true Gundam series. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Blues]

Originally posted by: DDBen


You are completely missing the point of this statement. I'm not directly stating Athrun should have shot Shinn. I'm stating that being a member of Faith given him that right and as such slugging him is the least of what he could have done had he cared to used his actual position.

I get your point. I'm just saying that while FAITH may give Asuran a lot of power, I don't think going around slugging his comrades is one of those powers. Because if he abused his power in that way, you better be damn sure Dullindal would put a stop to it. Especially against someone whom ZAFT seems to think so highly of.