Phase 35 is out (RAW)

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: FelixZeroAlastor
Shinn is a little kid with a gun. By all rights he should be dead right now seeing all this crap that he has done. The only reason that he is alive is because Dullindal wants him to be.

Now there seems to be alot of controversy over the punch that Athrun gave Shinn. I don't think Athrun was ever gonna hit Shinn. It wasn't until Shinn said something about Athrun wanting Shinn to have been shot down by Kira, that really pissed Athrun off. Athrun doesn't hate Shinn at all from what I see. Throughout the series ,up until Savior got shot down, Athrun has been trying to theach Shinn and help him with his listening/respect problem. Heck, I think Athrun even tried to extend the arms of friendship towards Shinn. He also definatily didn't want Shinn to get shot down by Kira at all. The only thing that I see Athrun disliking Shinn for is the way Shinn goes about handling things. Like DDBen said, for all Athrun cared he could've shot Shinn right betwenn the eyes seeing as he has the authority to do so but, he didn't. All he did was grab him until Shinn started talking about getting shot down. Now I'll agree that Athrun has done about nothing sime Savior was totaled but, this ep just shows you that he has maintained his brains and maturity even over his moping period. Oh, and for those of you who say that Athrun has done nothing this entire series but mope and be a pussy, watch this series again. He did alot up until he lost Savior.

It seems to me that the only army personel on the Minerva with half a brain are Athrun and Talia. They seem to know the line between what orders to obey and what orders to disobey. Talia gave the AA last ep a chance to surrender at least. For those of you who don't know yes that would've been against orders. And Athrun, well he is gonna desert. And yes deserting is really bad.

Now the Rey touching Shinn. It isn't because he is gay. That was just a joke. This is probably so that Shinn will feel more like Rey's friend and so that Shinn feels... I don't know secure or something. This in turn makes it a bit easier for Shinn to be controlled.

As for being soldiers, Shinn and athrun suck as soldiers.

And I am not a Shinn-hater. He is accually pretty cool.(except his attitude)

BRILLIANT! Seriously, great post. Very good points about how Athrun has tried to help Shinn out, and how much Athrun has accomplished up till this point. I mean, really, wasn't the whole plan to knock out that Lohengrin his?

As for Rey, I'd almost say he is doing with a plan what Flay did to Kira. he is totally mindf***ing Shinn so as to get him to do what he wants, which appears to be to kill lots of people.

[kinggalaxia]

Hehehe, this is turning into psychoanalysis vs. enjoyment of character. This is great!!

AND philosophy. The definition of a soldier...the line between right and wrong. You know when fans verbally beat each other over their views of these and other things that it is a true Gundam series. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Blues]

Originally posted by: PSJ
So now a discussion about which is the better soldier started, Shinn or Asuran? I'd say they are equally bad soldiers at this point. Asuran acts like an idiot instead of a soldier and shouldn't have rejoined ZAFT in the first place. Shinn is NOT the model soldier all you Shinn likers say he is. Shinn has done some questionable things, one which he would be executed for but since Dulinandal likes him he got off easy.

This shows really how the ZAFT military works. The officer fighting AA until Minerva appeared ignored direct orders and acted on his own accord with the statement "Talia is just a woman anyway". Then we have Hiene who tells Shinn and the rest of the pilots at Minerva that they should all be like one big happy family instead of soldiers. Makes you question ZAFT a bit doesn't it?

On the other hand we have Kira and Cagalli suger coating everything and trying to justify it with "This is Orb's ideals". No wonder they got labeled an enemy when acting like that. Trying to stop soldiers doing their duty to protect their country and saying that they should just desert EAF and leave Orb at extreme danger is questionable as well.

Both sides got negative things about them. Both sides are diffrent and attract diffrent people. Being totally objective is impossible seing as you got an opinion and it will reflect in the way you write. This post will probably not sound totally objective either but im not trying to be totally objective. In the end discussions like these will never end, some think Asuran punching Shinn was justified and some think Shinn's arrogance at the time was justified. Well that's my 2 cents on this, feel free to critize me all you want. i'll try to answer the best i can.

Oh I agree. Shinn isn't the perfect soldier. My issue is with people who criticize Shinn for one thing but then praise Asuran or Kira for the same thing.

Everyone is a pawn in this war...Shinn, Asuran, Kira. They're all being used in some way.

But in this particular case, Shinn was just following orders...The fact that they coincided with his own desires might not necessarily be a circumstance, but you have to remember that Shinn wasn't really actively trying to kill Kira until Stellar died.

Originally posted by: MeroTZ

You need to learn to differenciate between people who hate shinn the person and those who hate Shinn the character. I (and I had thought DDBen, I dont wanna put words in his mouth but I thought he did...) think Shinn is a wonderful character... but I think he is an asshole and deserves to die horribly at Kira (or better yet, Athruns') hands.

I dont want to be called a "Shinn hater" because I think Shinn is a great character (no greater or less great than Kira) but I hate his personality with a passion. He's the type of person I would hate to be anywhere near in reality. He's a remorseless killer, and I think people like that should be shot after a short trial. But hey, that may just be me.

Also, Blues, Stop double posting. You are going to get in trouble for it.

I respect your opinion. Yes, Shinn's personality is terrible, but, I can see how he got that way. Personally, I think the character and the personality coincide with one another. And we have seen a softer side of Shinn, both before Stellar died and before his family was killed. I wouldn't go as far as saying he's a remorseless killer though. In his eyes, he's been wronged and he's taking justice into his own hands.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind about Shinn. I'm just stating how I feel about him.

Oh, and sorry about the double posts. I'm not used to this message board yet.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: kinggalaxia
wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why. [img][/img]

To me atleast its pretty clear that Shinn was the black pawn. This is because when he went up against the AA and freedom I see him as having taken Kira's piece which would be the white knight or white King this hasn't really been stated yet but I assume Djibril is more likely the white king. In place of that the black pawn is at a position to either take out the white rook which to me is the AA. If he had taken out the AA he would have made it to the other side and become a piece of his choosing. As the AA choose to run that to me represents the black pawn making it to the other side without taking out the rook. This still means that Shinn becomes a differn't piece (in this case by being given destiny). The pawn on the other hand could represent the entire minerva and no just Shinn but either way the result is the same.

@MeroTZ your statement was correct Shinn is indeed a character I like the writting behind but hate on a much more personal level.

[MeroTZ]

Just thought I'd throw this out there to throw in some discord.

Dulindal is playing both sides of the board.

It fits, what with him manipulating EVERYONE.
Dont forget that, because it is probably significant.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
you were the last person we needed to join this argrument Mr. Joule

You were the last person we needed to get born Mr. Nonsense.
Now go and do something constructive, like taking an overdose.

---

@Merotz:

"In the spirit of friendly argument, I'd like to say they are both sucky soldiers. Namely, look at Shinn's history of insubordination and flat out treachery. Hell, if Dulindal didn't have plans for him, he'd have been executed after the whole Stellar thing."

I agree. To be honest, my post was not to be taken too seriously when it comes to this. Athrun's & Shinn's respective skill as soldiers can be discussed forever, since they are both right and wrong simultaneously (depending on your views and so on).

[Dannynonsense]

aaawwww come on cant take a joke i only said it since your argrument was actually a good one since your neither a kira or shinn supporter but whats with the overdose crack dont you think that maybe talking it to far mr. joule

but anyways go yzak!!

[kinggalaxia]

O.o.....aha, yeah....okay

methinks you took it far first, not only by telling him that he has no right in the topic, but also humoring his affection for Ysak. Also...."anywayz go yzak!!!"??? *snickers*

[Mae]

This is more interesting than the usual conversation, so I'll throw in my two cents. About being a soldier, or course it's important to trust your superiors and obey orders. But that depends on haveing a superior that you can trust. Tallia made some comment earlier about how soldiers obey good orders more readily than bad ones. The thing is attacing the AA at that time made no sense. Yes, they weren't allies, but they weren't enemies yet, and they had actually helped win the battle against Destroy (you could argue that they were the deciding factor). And Dillandal had just made his big speech about how Djibril and his bunch were the only true enemies that they should fight. He knew that AA had nothing to do with them. And he knew Cagalli, the leader of one of Earth's most powerful nations, was hiding on the ship. He should have wanted to negotiate with them, or at the very least capture them, not elimiate the entire crew. IMO Tallia understood her orders were wrong and missed on purpose.


Athrun has some experience following leaders whose real goals are a lot different than what they tell the public. After all, his own father turned out to be a genocidal maniac. Dillandel isn't just after peace, he's after power. Why take out Lacus? Because she has power and influence, and she just might not agree with his plans. Why take out Cagalli and the AA? It's not because they are enemies, but because they might be seen as heroes, and the Chairman doesn't want the competition. When what your commander says doesn't match up with what he does than it's time to look for a new commander.

Shin is more like a young Athrun. He believes in what Dillandal says and overlooks what doesn't match his beliefs. I think this is more from his youth and inexperience than anything else. He could turn around when he discovers the truth.

Edit: some cut and paste issues, turned out wierd.

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Originally posted by: Mae
This is more interesting than the usual conversation, so I'll throw in my two cents. About being a soldier, or course it's important to trust your superiors and obey orders. But that depends on haveing a superior that you can trust. Tallia made some comment earlier about how soldiers obey good orders more readily than bad ones. The thing is attacing the AA at that time made no sense. Yes, they weren't allies, but they weren't enemies yet, and they had actually helped win the battle against Destroy (you could argue that they were the deciding factor). And Dillandal had just made his big speech about how Djibril and his bunch were the only true enemies that they should fight. He knew that AA had nothing to do with them. And he knew Cagalli, the leader of one of Earth's most powerful nations, was hiding on the ship. He should have wanted to negotiate with them, or at the very least capture them, not elimiate the entire crew. IMO Tallia understood her orders were wrong and missed on purpose.

Athrun has some experience following leaders whose real goals are a lot different than what they tell the public. After all, his own father turned out to be a genocidal maniac. Dillandel isn't just after peace, he's after power. Why take out Lacus? Because she has power and influence, and she just might not agree with his plans. Why take out Cagalli and the AA? They helped win the battle against Destroy (you could argue they were the deciding factor). They could be strong allies. No, it's not because they are enemies, but because they might be seen as heroes, and the Chairman doesn't want the competition. When what your commander says doesn't match up with what he does than it's time to look for a new commander.

Shin is more like a young Athrun. He believes in what Dillandal says and overlooks what doesn't match his beliefs. I think this is more from his youth and inexperience than anything else. He could turn around when he discovers the truth.

Wow. Great post. The first paragraph is very true. Except for Talia missing on purpose. I am pretty sure that all she does is give orders. The aiming and firing of the cannon is completely handled by someone else. And Thee AA was indeed hit by the Tanhausser. Other than that great post.

[Roko]

well, she delayed in giving the order to fire, letting AA have more time to escape and submerge deeper under water, so that they wouldn't take as much damage.

[Blues]

The "AA being an enemy" thing is relative. Here you have a faction with a powerful Gundam in Freedom. They've proven to be pretty unpredictable. Of course WE know their intentions and that they shouldn't be considered enemies, but no one else does, save Asuran...and he didn't tell anyone.

I can see where ZAFT is coming from. Better safe than sorry....especially in war. I know Dullindal just got finished saying that LOGOS was the enemy, but like I said before...no one knew where Archangel stood.

At this point, things are very confusing. On the one hand you have the EAF. On the other you have ZAFT. Then you have the AA, whom have an alligence with no one. Then you have LOGOS. They seem to be pulling all the strings.....but then you have Dullindal. There is a lot more to him than meets the eye. I wouldn't be surprised if he was behind everything in the first place. But I'm sure you all knew that.

[bigdaddy843]

Originally posted by: Blues
The "AA being an enemy" thing is relative. Here you have a faction with a powerful Gundam in Freedom. They've proven to be pretty unpredictable. Of course WE know their intentions and that they shouldn't be considered enemies, but no one else does, save Asuran...and he didn't tell anyone.

I can see where ZAFT is coming from. Better safe than sorry....especially in war. I know Dullindal just got finished saying that LOGOS was the enemy, but like I said before...no one knew where Archangel stood.

At this point, things are very confusing. On the one hand you have the EAF. On the other you have ZAFT. Then you have the AA, whom have an alligence with no one. Then you have LOGOS. They seem to be pulling all the strings.....but then you have Dullindal. There is a lot more to him than meets the eye. I wouldn't be surprised if he was behind everything in the first place. But I'm sure you all knew that.

well, your first statement is definitely true, I can see how the rest of the world sees the AA, especially since it appears taht they have been popping up almost randomly, fighting against both sides.

In my opinion, Dullindal may even be part of the Logos, in some sort of conspiracy, or he may be trying to seize power once the Logos have been eradicated.

[chitgoks]

kira isnt considered a pawn in this series. and im sure he was never part of dullindal's plans. if he was indeed the one who ordered the assassination of lacus, then he expected his soldiers to assassinate lacus adn everyone (including kira). having kira in the war , showing up unexpectedly, i dont think he expected that imo

[antoine]

I agree.

The only reason AA was declared the enemy was because Dullindal felt threatened by two people, Kira and Lacus. Though he knows Lacus is at/near plant, he wanted to eliminate at least one of the two.

[LokeXero]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Blues
The "AA being an enemy" thing is relative. Here you have a faction with a powerful Gundam in Freedom. They've proven to be pretty unpredictable. Of course WE know their intentions and that they shouldn't be considered enemies, but no one else does, save Asuran...and he didn't tell anyone.

Athrun did tell others there intentions (Talia is one who knows, i guess Shinn and Rey as well and prob Dullindal) and Lunamaria knows as well so its not like no one else knows. It like in ep 34 when shin and rey were studying "Since Freedom/AA its not an Ally we have to treat it as an enemy"

[Blues]

Originally posted by: bigdaddy843


In my opinion, Dullindal may even be part of the Logos, in some sort of conspiracy, or he may be trying to seize power once the Logos have been eradicated.

My thoughts exactly. But then again, does he really NEED the power? I mean he managed to have the entirety of Earth and Plant eating out of his hand.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Blues

Originally posted by: bigdaddy843


In my opinion, Dullindal may even be part of the Logos, in some sort of conspiracy, or he may be trying to seize power once the Logos have been eradicated.

My thoughts exactly. But then again, does he really NEED the power? I mean he managed to have the entirety of Earth and Plant eating out of his hand.

He doesn't want power back during the clip show about Raul and his relationship he stated his objective was to wipe out everything and start over. His main goal is the same as Rauls which is quite simply kill everything. Right now he's making moves to ensure he is the only military power and with nutcases like Shinn following him he's going to have a army of fanatics at his fingertips. Anyone who disagree's he just labels a enemy and has them killed off.

[bigdaddy843]

Originally posted by: DDBen

He doesn't want power back during the clip show about Raul and his relationship he stated his objective was to wipe out everything and start over. His main goal is the same as Rauls which is quite simply kill everything. Right now he's making moves to ensure he is the only military power and with nutcases like Shinn following him he's going to have a army of fanatics at his fingertips. Anyone who disagree's he just labels a enemy and has them killed off.

Wow, good point, it would seem to appear true that that is Dullindal's hidden or not so hidden agenda.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Mae
IMO Tallia understood her orders were wrong and missed on purpose.

Since she didn't say anything about missing, whether or not it missed is pretty much to whoever was pushing the buttons controlling the Tannhauser. It was quite clear she was trying to let them go though. First wasting time by offering to allow them to surrender, then waiting to use the Tannhauser. It would have been very easy to use their positron cannon as soon as they got behind the Archangel but they didn't. Eventually to keep up the act she did order it activated, but it was clearly Arthur that was all worried about them getting away.

Originally posted by: Blues
The "AA being an enemy" thing is relative. Here you have a faction with a powerful Gundam in Freedom. They've proven to be pretty unpredictable. Of course WE know their intentions and that they shouldn't be considered enemies, but no one else does, save Asuran...and he didn't tell anyone.

Like LokeXero said the problem wasn't that they didn't know, it was that they DID know. Remember Lunamaria taped the whole conversation between Athrun, Kira, and Cagalli. She gave it to Talia who almost certainly listened too it, and very well may have passed it on. They knew that the Archangel was concerned about the assassination attempt on Lacus and that was definitaly something Dullindal did not want going public.

Oh, and remember Cagalli said that the Sairen's had connections with at least one of the Logos members. That could have been used as an excuse.

Originally posted by: Blues
My thoughts exactly. But then again, does he really NEED the power? I mean he managed to have the entirety of Earth and Plant eating out of his hand.

The thing with this statement is that very rarely do people who are seeking power and control over everyone acctually NEED it. They just want it.