Phase 35 is out (RAW)

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo

To put it simply: well, good for all you Shinn-haters that Athrun punched him. I fail to see the logic in the scene however, other than Athrun's dislike for him. An understandable dislike maybe (seeing as Shinn presumably killed Kira & blew up the Archangel), but still. Shinn followed orders and took down the enemy's greatest pilot. And he gets smacked. Wow, go Athrun! As far as these things goes, I'd say Shinn is a better soldier [img][/img] At least he knows what the hell he is supposed to be doing. Also, what the hell has Athrun even accomplished in this series?

In the spirit of friendly argument, I'd like to say they are both sucky soldiers. Namely, look at Shinn's history of insubordination and flat out treachery. Hell, if Dulindal didn't have plans for him, he'd have been executed after the whole Stellar thing.

That said, Shinn is still more loyal to ZAFT at this point than Athrun is. And while he does know what he is supposed to be doing, he generally only does so when he wants to.

Shinn kills enemies, takes down Kira and so on and so forth. Athrun is the one who needs a punch, so that retard can bring himself together and become his older more resolute self. As it stands now he's just a moron.

I'd say he just got such a punch. Well, metaphorically at least. Seeing his friends/near family die would be like a punch.... TO THE MIND!

---As for the episode: YZAK! God, I've missed him. As PSJ said a few pages back, nobody can say "URUSAI!" like this godly creation of a character can. [img][/img] He better get more screentime now. I just love everything about him. He's just so impulsive, so pissed off, so brilliant... so "Is that head of yours only for decoration?". HELL YEAH!

It would be nice for him to come back, maybe with an upgraded version of Duel or some such. And his humorous comments are always welcome.

Does anyone else think that Rey helped Shinn to get Kira down as a revenge for the latter killing Kruuze? Also, <3 the new mobile suits. Legend looks kinda like Providence #2. With Athrun about to leave, I am guessing Rey will get that one instead.

He almost certainly helped go after Freedom for revenge for Krueze, whatwith that flashback and all. Him getting Legend makes lots of sense, it certainly doesn't look like a suit to be thrown away on Athruns escape.

NOTE: Everything I say about Shinn is said in an entirely objective way, coming from a guy who does not care particularly for either Shinn nor Athrun. So if you are going to criticise this post, which I am sure that at least 3 of you will, then do not blindly assume that I'm a Shinn fanboy; for I am not.

Shinns great, he's just not very likable.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: Nai

5. Shinn Asuka gets slapped in the face by his comrade in arms Asuran Zala for doing his duty and for not being owned by Freedom. Asuran Zala's superb defense was "KIRA DIDN'T WANT TO KILL YOU! HE JUST WANTED TO FUCK UP YOUR UNIT! YOU SHOULD HAD LET HIM WIN! BOO-FUCKING-HOO!"

Asuran was basically getting after Shinn for making this personal, when he's letting his personal feelings get in the way of his judgement.

Asuran told Kira himself that he should back off...and Kira didn't, so he seemingly got blown the hell up. Yes, Shinn was arrogant, but he was following orders. From a military point of view, he defeated the Freedom, one of the most powerful suits known. Asuran knew what Kira was all about, but Shinn didn't. If Asuran didn't want Kira to die, then maybe he should have, oh I dunno, TOLD EVERYONE WHAT HE KNEW ABOUT KIRA AND WHAT THEY WERE TRYING TO DO!

I don't blame Asuran for decking Shinn from a personal standpoint, but it's not like he was in the right for doing it.

[Vegita]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
... To make a comparison, this would be like the United States attacking France for continously 'getting in our way' politically (PLEASE, I am not trying to start any political stuff here, jsut trying to make a comparison showing how ridiculous it was for ZAFT to consider the AA their enemy).

Make a valid comparison if you're going to make one at all.

Q: What do you think the United States would do if France went into Iraq and attacked US Forces in the name of "preventing war"?

A: France would be declared an enemy an enemy on the battlefield.

[bigdaddy843]

well, I basically feel that that punch Athrun delivered was quite a welcome thing for most Kira fans and Shinn haters. Being a Kira fan myself, I too feel that the punch was justifiable and that Athrun was most likely letting loose some very pent up anger, however, I have to admit that Shinn being extremely skilled has in a way become a fact. It cannot be denied that he is to a certain degree a moblie suit ace, however(again) I must state that he appears deluded in the issue that he would have been able to placate Stellar and that Kira killed her or from his point of view murdered her, without good cause or reason.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: Vegita

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
... To make a comparison, this would be like the United States attacking France for continously 'getting in our way' politically (PLEASE, I am not trying to start any political stuff here, jsut trying to make a comparison showing how ridiculous it was for ZAFT to consider the AA their enemy).

Make a valid comparison if you're going to make one at all.

Q: What do you think the United States would do if France went into Iraq and attacked US Forces in the name of "preventing war"?

A: France would be declared an enemy an enemy on the battlefield.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

[Blues]

Originally posted by: DDBen


Actually the punch was completely justified based on Shinn going out of his way to antagonize his superior officer. Reguardless of who Shinn thinks he is if Athran cared to shoot him in the head he has that kind of jurisdiction as a member of faith. Also it seems rather odd to me that he would get in any trouble for leaving the Minerva as he only has stayed there upto this point of his own free will.

Are you kidding me? You know what would happen if Asuran did that? Firing squad! He killed Shinn Asuka right after Shinn destroyed the Freedom. Yeah....ZAFT is REALLY going to smile upon that.

"Mr Zala, can you explain your justification in murdering Shinn Asuka after said pilot defeated the Freedom, a unit that was labeled as an enemy of Zaft"

I'd like to see him get out of that.

The punch was only justifiable from a personal point of view. Like I said, I can understand why he did it, but it's an entirely personal thing.

And really, could you say Shinn was going out of his way to harass his Superior Officer? From Shinn's point of view, Asuran was giving him flak for following his orders. So it could be said that Zala started it.

And for those who say that Shinn did it because of a grudge after Kira killed Stellar, you're condemming Shinn for doing something because of personal reasons, but you praise Asuran for decking Shinn, also for a personal reason.

Bottom line is this Shinn Asuka is not Kira Yamato. IMO, he's better, because he's not the typical whiney crybaby who hates war but is being forced to fight...it was fine with Amuro Ray, but after 26 years of it....I'm tired of it....That's why I liked Kamille Budan in Zeta...he broke the mold....same thing here with Shinn. If people would get past hating him, they'll see that he is actually a complex character...and after spending two years in his shoes, I challenge you to not end up as arroagant and vengeful as he is.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Blues
Are you kidding me? You know what would happen if Asuran did that? Firing squad! He killed Shinn Asuka right after Shinn destroyed the Freedom. Yeah....ZAFT is REALLY going to smile upon that.

"Mr Zala, can you explain your justification in murdering Shinn Asuka after said pilot defeated the Freedom, a unit that was labeled as an enemy of Zaft"

I'd like to see him get out of that.

The punch was only justifiable from a personal point of view. Like I said, I can understand why he did it, but it's an entirely personal thing.

And really, could you say Shinn was going out of his way to harass his Superior Officer? From Shinn's point of view, Asuran was giving him flak for following his orders. So it could be said that Zala started it.

And for those who say that Shinn did it because of a grudge after Kira killed Stellar, you're condemming Shinn for doing something because of personal reasons, but you praise Asuran for decking Shinn, also for a personal reason.

Bottom line is this Shinn Asuka is not Kira Yamato. IMO, he's better, because he's not the typical whiney crybaby who hates war but is being forced to fight...it was fine with Amuro Ray, but after 26 years of it....I'm tired of it....That's why I liked Kamille Budan in Zeta...he broke the mold....same thing here with Shinn. If people would get past hating him, they'll see that he is actually a complex character...and after spending two years in his shoes, I challenge you to not end up as arroagant and vengeful as he is.

I was not personally saying that Athran would get away with shooting shin in this case. The point is that those in Faith can do whatever they want. They answer only personally to Dullindale so unless he says that in such a case Athran was specifically wrong in his actions he has the abosolute right to do it.

Athran was pissed at Shinn he went to see him return and when attempting to avoid a altrication with Shinn. Shinn specifically started a fight and saying things he KNEW would bother Athran.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: DDBen


I was not personally saying that Athran would get away with shooting shin in this case. The point is that those in Faith can do whatever they want. They answer only personally to Dullindale so unless he says that in such a case Athran was specifically wrong in his actions he has the abosolute right to do it.

Athran was pissed at Shinn he went to see him return and when attempting to avoid a altrication with Shinn. Shinn specifically started a fight and saying things he KNEW would bother Athran.

While FAITH can do whatever they want, I don't think that killing a comrade would be something they could get away with. Dullindal didn't want Shinn dead in the first place, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excuse it.

Maybe in Shinn's eyes, Asuran would give him hell for following orders.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Blues
While FAITH can do whatever they want, I don't think that killing a comrade would be something they could get away with. Dullindal didn't want Shinn dead in the first place, so I'm pretty sure he wouldn't excuse it.

Maybe in Shinn's eyes, Asuran would give him hell for following orders.

You are completely missing the point of this statement. I'm not directly stating Athrun should have shot Shinn. I'm stating that being a member of Faith given him that right and as such slugging him is the least of what he could have done had he cared to used his actual position.

[NineTailsKitsu]

Being a member of Faith only really boils down to Asuran having an opinion in a given military situation, and the freedom to choose what he wishes to do. HOWEVER, It does'nt matter whether ' you want to do it or not' or 'but, but, but, Kira's my friend!' when it comes to orders. The Minerva was ordered to shoot down an enemy, that being the Archangel. Shinn, the ace pilot of the Minerva, was ordered to destroy the enemy: that being Kira. Just because it happened that Shinn wanted to kill Kira anyway is just circumstance, for Shinn it was killing two birds with one stone, a mindset useful in his given situation. For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.

''" Know your facts before you post something"'' heh....that's pretty funny.

[Sano]

Why does Dullindal want the Archangel gone? I thought he praised the Archangel's action from the previous war in the begnning of the series, and wanted the Minerva to "take a role similar to the Archangel's from the last war." I quoted that from Dullindal. Isn't that also that the reason Talia was made a member of FAITH? From watching the series, it seems Talia and Athuran aren't using their powers from being in FAITH very much at all. Even though the order to destroy the AA came from the Council, Talia could have objected/questioned the order as a member of Faith.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.

Lets put something strait here. Shinn is a child, who has to be treated like a child in order to get him to follow orders. He is insurbordinate, and so far, has not been punished (he got out of being executed). He is driven by anger, and acts without orders or the best interest of ZAFT in mind. He knew very well an extended's body would be valuable to researchers, but he took off in a mobile suit (thats probably court marshiable, but was ignored because he is "Mr. Super Ace") and dumped the body in a lake.

Athrun, was a retired soldier who decided that he could no longer sit by when the second war began. He made the decision, at the beginning of the series, that ZAFT was doing the right thing and so he lent his support to them. INSTEAD of putting him in a normal chain of command, and INSTEAD of treating him like a soldier, Dulindal put him in Faith where he would have the autonomy he required. At no point, at all, has Athrun been treated like or considered a soldier by ZAFT administration, and we shouldn't hold him to that standard either.

Athruns biggest mistake was not bailing on ZAFT when he had a badass mobile suit and he saw Kira had a reason to be opposing ZAFT. He shoulda bailed when he saw smoke, instead of waiting for the whole thing to start to burn around him.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: NineTailsKitsu
Being a member of Faith only really boils down to Asuran having an opinion in a given military situation, and the freedom to choose what he wishes to do. HOWEVER, It does'nt matter whether ' you want to do it or not' or 'but, but, but, Kira's my friend!' when it comes to orders. The Minerva was ordered to shoot down an enemy, that being the Archangel. Shinn, the ace pilot of the Minerva, was ordered to destroy the enemy: that being Kira. Just because it happened that Shinn wanted to kill Kira anyway is just circumstance, for Shinn it was killing two birds with one stone, a mindset useful in his given situation. For the Athrun lovers/Shinn haters, its as simple as this: Shinn is a soldier, who follows orders and Arthun is a spoiled child who thinks he's above doing what he's supposed to do.

''" Know your facts before you post something"'' heh....that's pretty funny.

This was no coincidence, Dullindale has been grooming Shinn to take down Freedom from day 1. Thats why he has the impulse and why after destroy and getting the report that Dullindale decided to send them after the AA. The reason being he knows Shinn purely runs on emotions and at the time he blamed Kira for the death of Stellar. Shinn is nothing more then one of Dullindales pawns which is why when they showed the chess board the black pawn was in place to take out the white rook which signifies the AA.

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Lets put something strait here. Shinn is a child, who has to be treated like a child in order to get him to follow orders. He is insurbordinate, and so far, has not been punished (he got out of being executed). He is driven by anger, and acts without orders or the best interest of ZAFT in mind. He knew very well an extended's body would be valuable to researchers, but he took off in a mobile suit (thats probably court marshiable, but was ignored because he is "Mr. Super Ace") and dumped the body in a lake.

I agree with much of your statement except for Stellars body as it was useless to Zaft being they already had pleanty of data from dead and disected extended this was the same reason they wanted to deliver her alive to Gebralter.

[kinggalaxia]

wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

[Blues]

Originally posted by: DDBen


You are completely missing the point of this statement. I'm not directly stating Athrun should have shot Shinn. I'm stating that being a member of Faith given him that right and as such slugging him is the least of what he could have done had he cared to used his actual position.

I get your point. I'm just saying that while FAITH may give Asuran a lot of power, I don't think going around slugging his comrades is one of those powers. Because if he abused his power in that way, you better be damn sure Dullindal would put a stop to it. Especially against someone whom ZAFT seems to think so highly of.

[Blues]

Originally posted by: kinggalaxia
wow, Ben, I love your chess reference. gotta say, we should break down who's who on the chess board. Before your post there, I only figured that Rau was the White King.

oh and Blues is my best friend irl. his opinions/posts are inspired by me. so if you see a lack of me on the topics, you'll know why. [img][/img]

Well I can be assure we won't agree on EVERYTHING. But I do feel pretty damn strongly about this particular topic. Especially when it comes to Kira and Shinn and their respective fans.

[PSJ]

So now a discussion about which is the better soldier started, Shinn or Asuran? I'd say they are equally bad soldiers at this point. Asuran acts like an idiot instead of a soldier and shouldn't have rejoined ZAFT in the first place. Shinn is NOT the model soldier all you Shinn likers say he is. Shinn has done some questionable things, one which he would be executed for but since Dulinandal likes him he got off easy.

This shows really how the ZAFT military works. The officer fighting AA until Minerva appeared ignored direct orders and acted on his own accord with the statement "Talia is just a woman anyway". Then we have Hiene who tells Shinn and the rest of the pilots at Minerva that they should all be like one big happy family instead of soldiers. Makes you question ZAFT a bit doesn't it?

On the other hand we have Kira and Cagalli suger coating everything and trying to justify it with "This is Orb's ideals". No wonder they got labeled an enemy when acting like that. Trying to stop soldiers doing their duty to protect their country and saying that they should just desert EAF and leave Orb at extreme danger is questionable as well.

Both sides got negative things about them. Both sides are diffrent and attract diffrent people. Being totally objective is impossible seing as you got an opinion and it will reflect in the way you write. This post will probably not sound totally objective either but im not trying to be totally objective. In the end discussions like these will never end, some think Asuran punching Shinn was justified and some think Shinn's arrogance at the time was justified. Well that's my 2 cents on this, feel free to critize me all you want. i'll try to answer the best i can.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Blues
Bottom line is this Shinn Asuka is not Kira Yamato. IMO, he's better, because he's not the typical whiney crybaby who hates war but is being forced to fight...it was fine with Amuro Ray, but after 26 years of it....I'm tired of it....That's why I liked Kamille Budan in Zeta...he broke the mold....same thing here with Shinn. If people would get past hating him, they'll see that he is actually a complex character...and after spending two years in his shoes, I challenge you to not end up as arroagant and vengeful as he is.

You need to learn to differenciate between people who hate shinn the person and those who hate Shinn the character. I (and I had thought DDBen, I dont wanna put words in his mouth but I thought he did...) think Shinn is a wonderful character... but I think he is an asshole and deserves to die horribly at Kira (or better yet, Athruns') hands.

I dont want to be called a "Shinn hater" because I think Shinn is a great character (no greater or less great than Kira) but I hate his personality with a passion. He's the type of person I would hate to be anywhere near in reality. He's a remorseless killer, and I think people like that should be shot after a short trial. But hey, that may just be me.

Also, Blues, Stop double posting. You are going to get in trouble for it.

PSJ: Interesting point about the ZAFT military and how it works.

[kinggalaxia]

very well written, PSJ. In fact, me & Blues got this bud who's a Kira lover and it's pretty rough to try to not sound sadist around him, LOL. And honestly, I do tell this guy that Kira is right on some levels; it's just that I do not enjoy how he goes about carrying his business.

You're so right. They both have good & bad in them. I'm very glad that you, as well as others (Terra in particular) are open-minded and analyze both sides to find both light & dark in all the characters. Mucho kudos! ^_^

[FelixZeroAlastor]

Now there seems to be alot of controversy over the punch that Athrun gave Shinn. I don't think Athrun was ever gonna hit Shinn. It wasn't until Shinn said something about Athrun wanting Shinn to have been shot down by Kira, that really pissed Athrun off. Athrun doesn't hate Shinn at all from what I see. Throughout the series ,up until Savior got shot down, Athrun has been trying to theach Shinn and help him with his listening/respect problem. Heck, I think Athrun even tried to extend the arms of friendship towards Shinn. He also definatily didn't want Shinn to get shot down by Kira at all. The only thing that I see Athrun disliking Shinn for is the way Shinn goes about handling things. Like DDBen said, for all Athrun cared he could've shot Shinn right betwenn the eyes seeing as he has the authority to do so but, he didn't. All he did was grab him until Shinn started talking about getting shot down. Now I'll agree that Athrun has done about nothing sime Savior was totaled but, this ep just shows you that he has maintained his brains and maturity even over his moping period. Oh, and for those of you who say that Athrun has done nothing this entire series but mope and be a pussy, watch this series again. He did alot up until he lost Savior.

It seems to me that the only army personel on the Minerva with half a brain are Athrun and Talia. They seem to know the line between what orders to obey and what orders to disobey. Talia gave the AA last ep a chance to surrender at least. For those of you who don't know yes that would've been against orders. And Athrun, well he is gonna desert. And yes deserting is really bad.

Now the Rey touching Shinn. It isn't because he is gay. That was just a joke. This is probably so that Shinn will feel more like Rey's friend and so that Shinn feels... I don't know secure or something. This in turn makes it a bit easier for Shinn to be controlled.

As for being soldiers, Shinn and athrun suck as soldiers.

And I am not a Shinn-hater. He is accually pretty cool.(except his attitude)

Edit: Kira and the AA got what they deserved. I was a bit happy when the freedom was destroyed. Athrun even warned them but they just kept going. They even fucked up Athrun in the process. I was even happy and laughing when Shinn shot at Cagalli to shut her up. This is another reason Shinn is cool too.