Theory: Why people like/hate Kira/Shinn

[LokeXero]

Originally posted by: naruto-kira
those guts u say i would call hate....

u fail to c, meanS u fail u know wut wrong and right, U LOST YOUR SENSES MAYBE???
I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE, SINCE U SAY WUT RIGHT AND WRONG CAN BE ARGUE STILL END OF TIME.

IM NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T PROTECT HIS FRIENDS, IM SAYING THE MAIN CAUSE OF HIS FIGHTING IS TO KILL EAF... IN WAR THOSE STUFF HAPPENS HE NO ONE SPECIAL

AND KIRA FIGHTING SAVES ALOT MORE PEOPLE IN THE END OF THE DAY...IT WEAKENS BOTH SIDE, EVEN IF KIRA KILL 1 MOBILE, IN THE OUTCOME 100 SAVED, THAT MEANS 100 LESS PEOPLE IS GONNA TURN OUT LIKE SHIN, I WILL BUY THAT ANYDAY. AND IF U THINK ENUFF, U WILL KNOW THAT AS WELL...

Man you havent come off this convo as smart Naruto-Kira, youve come off pretty noobish IMO. Shinn has only twice killed something in revenge, Freedom and the Orb Fleet, Othertimes hes killed to protect those he cares about which is exactly the same as your Hero Kira. The Difference is Kira killed alotta people and decided not to Kill anymore intentionally where as Shinn views it simply a means to an End, Kira has a grand Scheme for Peace, Shinn simply uses "If i kill all those who want to war then there can be Peace" as his ideal. Pacifism is a nice ideal but it'll never happen because people always lust for Power and Violence is simply 1 form of Power. Kira is a pacifist who wields a killing Machine, Shinn believes hes doing the right thing, not a wrong thing, With Freedom it wasnt simply revenge, it was orders, it only became Revenge when Freedom indirectly killed Shinns love interest, Shinn wouldve still destroyed Freedom Regardless if that hadnt happened. Shinn has always acted for what he believes. He mightve been niave about Stellar but his straight motive isnt revenge.

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: naruto-kira
those guts u say i would call hate....

u fail to c, meanS u fail u know wut wrong and right, U LOST YOUR SENSES MAYBE???
I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE, SINCE U SAY WUT RIGHT AND WRONG CAN BE ARGUE STILL END OF TIME.

IM NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T PROTECT HIS FRIENDS, IM SAYING THE MAIN CAUSE OF HIS FIGHTING IS TO KILL EAF... IN WAR THOSE STUFF HAPPENS HE NO ONE SPECIAL

AND KIRA FIGHTING SAVES ALOT MORE PEOPLE IN THE END OF THE DAY...IT WEAKENS BOTH SIDE, EVEN IF KIRA KILL 1 MOBILE, IN THE OUTCOME 100 SAVED, THAT MEANS 100 LESS PEOPLE IS GONNA TURN OUT LIKE SHIN, I WILL BUY THAT ANYDAY. AND IF U THINK ENUFF, U WILL KNOW THAT AS WELL...

Man you havent come off this convo as smart Naruto-Kira, youve come off pretty noobish IMO. Shinn has only twice killed something in revenge, Freedom and the Orb Fleet, Othertimes hes killed to protect those he cares about which is exactly the same as your Hero Kira. The Difference is Kira killed alotta people and decided not to Kill anymore intentionally where as Shinn views it simply a means to an End, Kira has a grand Scheme for Peace, Shinn simply uses "If i kill all those who want to war then there can be Peace" as his ideal. Pacifism is a nice ideal but it'll never happen because people always lust for Power and Violence is simply 1 form of Power. Kira is a pacifist who wields a killing Machine, Shinn believes hes doing the right thing, not a wrong thing, With Freedom it wasnt simply revenge, it was orders, it only became Revenge when Freedom indirectly killed Shinns love interest, Shinn wouldve still destroyed Freedom Regardless if that hadnt happened. Shinn has always acted for what he believes. He mightve been niave about Stellar but his straight motive isnt revenge.

though all response hold some truth i think one thing that Loke, terra, and naruto are missing is that everyone has there own sense of right and wrong like good and evil what some people view as evil can be viewed by other as good. they both have there reasons for fighting the only thing about shinn is his reason are more personal and are about himself he joined the millitary for power not to protect people but he does know the pain of loss so naturally it wouldnt be rare for him to protect the minera. however where kira would just stop the enemy in there track shinn would kill them all. it can be argured that shinn is just a crazed killer but like lokezero said his mentallity is "If i kill all those who want to war then there can be Peace" but thats sort of the same thing like kira they have different ways of doing things but the bottom line is the same there both dreamers.

shinn being more realistic though in the method of application. as for kira his goal is not to kill people who fight but to stop them with force,action or whatever. he trys not to kill but some one could die indirectly he's seen what wars have done and doesnt want them to happen because they create people like shinn. since kira doesnt kill though its not like he would be the reason for another shinn emerging from this war. shinn though would be a force to create more people like him who seek power in the hopes of getting some sort of revenge or satisfaction which is why he is the perfect pawn.the most important thing to remeber in this case that kira has found some form of enlightenment and shinn is on a path of destruction which could lead to his untimely demise. both are right and wrong and both are diffrent people.

so in my final note its rather stupid to compare these two since they had diffrent lives and represent diffrent things

[Motteh]

@dannynonsense: when Terra said "What's right and wrong can be discussed to the end of time" he meant that everyone has his/her own sense of justice and what's right and wrong, because in all wars it's a clashing of ideals,
and always the people that are fighting eachother are always fighting for what they think is right, you just misread what Terra meant by what he said

also naruto-kira (or whatever your name is), if you read what i've said above you must realize that you're wrong
since everyone who fights in a war fights for what he believes is right, no one is going to fight for a cause he/she doesn't believe in
because a soldier who doesn't believe in what he's fighting for isn't any use on a battlefield

and also i have to add that if i fighting a war i would pick a soldier like Shinn over a person like Kira anyday
since Shinn still has the guts to pull that trigger, as where Kira lost it a long time ago

[Dannynonsense]

i know terra was saying the same thing i just wanted to emphisize on the point since naruto-kira doesnt relize that yet. and like you said that "people that are fighting eachother are always fighting for what they think is right"

also about picking soldiers even though shinn is an ideal pick you must admit kira is a force to be reckon with which is why the chairman knew he had to take him out of the picture

[PSJ]

Aww, I missed out on the action in here. Good thing Terra appeared. Made it all a little bit more fun as always.

And the past 2 pages has been almost impossible to read, naruto-kira fix your writing.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
also about picking soldiers even though shinn is an ideal pick you must admit kira is a force to be reckon with which is why the chairman knew he had to take him out of the picture

i don't deny that, but in order to win a war you have to either totally annihilate your opponent, or make them surrender, and the way Kira is fighting isn't going to have either as an end result in my opinion
since his enemies won't die (directly) and they can always just put a new arm, leg, head on their suits and thus go out and fight again
you have to see where that leads to
*disabled, repaired, disabled, repaired, disabled, Freedom wrecked, Kira sad* [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[DDBen]

I have absolutely no clue what the last couple of pages attempted to say they looked like they were written by 5 year olds.

That aside people Shinn does not fight to protect at all he has never once fought souly to protect the Minerva or anyone on it. When it came to actions to actually protect someone in Shinn's case he has either avoided the matter and Simply attacked whatever was infront of him, frozen and just blamed those who actually acted afterwords or Killed purely for his own ego.

In the case of the battles between the Minerva and the EA/Orb forces Shinn has essentially ignored the Minerva in battle never once actually taking out a direct threat to the minerva and instead concentraighting on the nearest enemy troop. In a way this is protecting the Minerva by reducing the enemy but he's certainly not standing back taking out missiles headed for the Ship that is left exclusively for Rey and Lunimaria who for whatever reason basically are standing on the ship in order to defend against whatever comes at it. Even when both Rey and Lunimaria were taken out as well as 85% or so of the Minerva's defences where specifically the AA could have easily finished off the ship and ended the battle Shinn's only responce was to continue towards his revenge on orb by attacking Calgari(who essentially hadn't done anything but talk) and the Orb carrier which was relative to the situation not a real threat.

Other examples include him leaving the Ship multiple times as the only opperable mobile suit on the minerva in order to persue his personal objectives in the particular case dumping Stellar on Neo. Which was in a way the only means he could come up with to protect her in his head(out of sight out of mind more or less). However if at that time the Minerva was attacked then it was essentially a sitting duck and letting the enemy commander know that your going to be away from your ship and plan to drop off Stellar is a green flag to attack. Had the EA had any more forces available at the time the Minerva would once again have been done for.

As far as Destroy goes Shinn once determining Stellar was the pilot basically stood there like a target and I don't think its even argueable that had Kira not been there then Shinn would have been killed while standing in a stupor. You could claim Stellar only attacked because she saw Kira but if Kira wasn't there then Neo would have either talked Shinn into standing down and had Stellar finish him off,by saying he would kill her on a differn't channel, or by attacking Shinn personally and Stellar would have made Shinn stop by defending Neo who was obviously paramount to Shinn to the very end.

I essentially see nothing Shinn has accomplished as anything but revenge and at this point it seems more like he just plans to blindly follow Dullindales words because he gives him the best toys. Yes in episode 36 he actually seemed to question the order of shooting down Athran but that is unlikely to stop the order from being completed.

Anyone feel free to give me a single example of Shinn actually putting his life on the line to protect anything. Where his only intention was to protect. Note this excludes dropping Stellar off with Neo as I've stated repeatedly my view on that matter and there is no point in repeating that arguement specifically in yet another thread.

[LokeXero]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Anyone feel free to give me a single example of Shinn actually putting his life on the line to protect anything. Where his only intention was to protect. Note this excludes dropping Stellar off with Neo as I've stated repeatedly my view on that matter and there is no point in repeating that arguement specifically in yet another thread.

Episode 1 GSD he protects Cagalli and Athrun by Jumping in between them and Gaia, Chaos and Abyss.

And thats just 1 instance DDBen, im pretty sure we could find more...Another is the Attack on the Positron Cannon...

[darkshadow]

uhm not sure........ ep 3? 4?, luna come crashing down, yells SHINN!!, shinn hurries in between her and gaia and fires a back off blast

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: DDBen
Anyone feel free to give me a single example of Shinn actually putting his life on the line to protect anything. Where his only intention was to protect. Note this excludes dropping Stellar off with Neo as I've stated repeatedly my view on that matter and there is no point in repeating that arguement specifically in yet another thread.

Episode 1 GSD he protects Cagalli and Athrun by Jumping in between them and Gaia, Chaos and Abyss.

And thats just 1 instance DDBen, im pretty sure we could find more...Another is the Attack on the Positron Cannon...

I'm at work so I can't check episode 1 but perhaps I should revise my statement as Shinn has more or less fallen from grace over the course of the series. After Junius 7 give one instance. I will acknowledge his actions in episode 1 however against the phantom pain.

The positron cannon is a completely differn't story Shinn wasn't protecting anything he made a attack on a positron cannon and was essentially berserking if I recall correctly.

[darkshadow]

he was protecting that little girls village

[PSJ]

He has protected a couple of times to. He tried to save Asuran when they were descending into the atmosphere in Ep. 6.

As for the battles his order probably was to fight the enemy troops while Luna and Rey protects the Minerva. Shinn did nothing wrong in the battles by not protecting the Minerva. You think he is doing wrong because you compare him to Kira in SEED where he protected the Archangel all the time. However Kira was not a soldier and didn't have military training.

As for the comment about shooting down Asuran. From ZAFT's point of view he should be shot down as he is a deserter who stole a state of the art mobile suit. If Shinn decides to shoot at Asuran he once again is doing nothing wrong, he simply is being a soldier.

Shinn believes in Dullinandal's words which again is nothing wrong. People tend to do that, believe in people. What would the world look like without leaders? The only reason we think it's stupid to follow Dullinandal is because we know about the fake Lacus and other wierd things he is doing. Shinn does not know this therefore i see nothing wrong with following Dullinandal. If you look past the dirty things we know about Dullinandal i think many of us would believe in his words to.

[Jurojin]

AND IF U THINK ENUFF, U WILL KNOW THAT AS WELL...

Of course, if I think enough, I'd know that proper spelling, grammar, and sentence structure would help get points across better than that jarbled mess....

There is no Universal sense of right and wrong. Trying to convince yourself otherwise is only lying to yourself.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: PSJ
As for the battles his order probably was to fight the enemy troops while Luna and Rey protects the Minerva.

Precisely. Shinn's purpose on the battlefield is to take down the enemies ( which he by all records does pretty damn well ) whilst Lunamaria and Rey are supposed to protect the Minerva.

Oh and, forgetting that Shinn put his life on the line to save Stellar, are you DDBen? Oh wait, Stellar deserved to be slaughtered like a pig so she doesn't count, right? And no, I'm not referring to when he dropped her off with Neo. I'm referring to when he tried to reason with her whilst she was in Destroy.

[Dannynonsense]

wow the action never stops okay the thing about shinn not protecting people i dont know about that just because he doesnt do it like kira doesnt mean he wont protect anything its just he's more personal about it. like i said ealier they kira and shinn are completely two different people. still all in all i just think shinn has a different way of doing things

@motteh: my statement ealier was only to acknowledege kira's strength on the battlefield which the chairman also acknowledge(if you pay attention to when he did you'll notic shinn getting mad). its true disable suits can be repaired but if a good tactictioner were to come up with a plan like let kira loose on the enemy first then half way through the battle bring the army and pick off what left. even though its a cheap plan its still effective and gets the same annhilation results

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: LokeXero

Originally posted by: DDBen
Anyone feel free to give me a single example of Shinn actually putting his life on the line to protect anything. Where his only intention was to protect. Note this excludes dropping Stellar off with Neo as I've stated repeatedly my view on that matter and there is no point in repeating that arguement specifically in yet another thread.

Episode 1 GSD he protects Cagalli and Athrun by Jumping in between them and Gaia, Chaos and Abyss.

And thats just 1 instance DDBen, im pretty sure we could find more...Another is the Attack on the Positron Cannon...

you mean the part where he moves to engage enemy mobile suits? The part he would have done regardless of Athrun and Cagali's presence?

The one really selfless thing he has done that I can remember is risking his life to save Athrun. I'll give him full credit for that.

[Terracosmo]

PSJ put the whole thing quite well.

I believe it is very easy for us to summarize the events of GS/D and confine things as right/wrong/smart/stupid, just because we have such a perspective. However, for the characters themselves, they are living in a constant "darkness" clouding what exactly is taking place. Taking that into consideration when arguing about characters is very important in my opinion.

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
PSJ put the whole thing quite well.

I believe it is very easy for us to summarize the events of GS/D and confine things as right/wrong/smart/stupid, just because we have such a perspective. However, for the characters themselves, they are living in a constant "darkness" clouding what exactly is taking place. Taking that into consideration when arguing about characters is very important in my opinion.

yep that is very true most people might find themsleves yelling at a character for something they did because they know whats really going on whereas the character is just following orders.

i use to really find shinn as a useless character some point in the series but i think of him know as natarle burlge or however you spell her name there just soldiers in the end following orders. shinn is more extreme version since he lets his emotions get caught up sometimes. ahh ( scratches head) whatever the point is you cant blame the character you have to take in the superiors who really control everything.

but anyways Asuran Zara is the man!!!!

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: PSJ
He has protected a couple of times to. He tried to save Asuran when they were descending into the atmosphere in Ep. 6.

As for the battles his order probably was to fight the enemy troops while Luna and Rey protects the Minerva. Shinn did nothing wrong in the battles by not protecting the Minerva. You think he is doing wrong because you compare him to Kira in SEED where he protected the Archangel all the time. However Kira was not a soldier and didn't have military training.

As for the comment about shooting down Asuran. From ZAFT's point of view he should be shot down as he is a deserter who stole a state of the art mobile suit. If Shinn decides to shoot at Asuran he once again is doing nothing wrong, he simply is being a soldier.

Shinn believes in Dullinandal's words which again is nothing wrong. People tend to do that, believe in people. What would the world look like without leaders? The only reason we think it's stupid to follow Dullinandal is because we know about the fake Lacus and other wierd things he is doing. Shinn does not know this therefore i see nothing wrong with following Dullinandal. If you look past the dirty things we know about Dullinandal i think many of us would believe in his words to.

I revised the earlier comment to include only post junius 7 Shinn instead of pre as that was a turning point in his character. Also I agree that Luna and Rey were mainly units to protect the Minerva while Shinn was more of the main attack unit that went out to deal with enemy threats. The point still stands however that Shinn does not defend the ship he kills enemy units. In particular when after every other MS of the Minerva as well as the majority of its armorments were destroyed in the second EA/Orb VS Minerva battle that Shinn still left the Minerva completely defenceless had Kira choosen to take out the Minerva instead of protecting his sister there is absolutely no way the Ship wouldn't have been completely destroyed leaving Shinn to run out of power and get himself killed.

Also note I'm not really comparing Shinn to Kira as Kira was for most of seed the only MS on the AA to begin with so he was forced to both defend the Ship as well as deal with enemy units which is just overall a entirely differn't mission then Shinn has ever actually done.

As for shooting down Athran thats Shinn's duty but at the same time I find it very very odd that Rey is just like warm up legend I'm taking it out. Considering that rey has no claim to the suit and its unlikely just anyone would have clearence to borrow a nuclear suit. Do note its possible that after his talk with Dullindale that he had the suit reasigned to Rey but as he notified Shinn it just seemed VERY odd to me.

[PSJ]

True the Minerva could have been destroyed but if they need help they have to order Shinn to do so. Shinn saved the people that were being used as slaves at that EAF base they were building.

To me it seems that you are comparing Shinn to Kira all the time not just in this case. Besides Kira for the most part choosed to protect the Archangel and did it out of his own free will. The Archangel did a pretty good job defending itself anyway. Kira did everything out of his own free will and was never really a soldier.

Rey do not belong in this discussion at all. Why are you bringing him in? That should go in the Ep. 36 discussion thread if anywhere. I don't see Rey's name in the topic title do you?