Theory: Why people like/hate Kira/Shinn

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: MeroTZ

Originally posted by: Terracosmo

@DDBen: Even if the marriage was arranged, Sai obviously cared about Frey. We'll never find out exactly how much, but it seems to me he cared enough for me to discard the comparison to a kid losing his toy. As for why I think Frey is a worse person than Shinn.. well, everybody else have already said what I want to say about that matter.

I think Sai very genuinely loved Fllay, and was excedingly upset when she started mindf***ing Kira. I think he was somewhat upset that it was obvious to him what Fllay was doing, and Kira refused to see it.

As for her being a worse person than Shinn... well, while you can lay the deaths of countless Soldiers killed by nukes in the final days of the war at her feet (I'll give this disk the bad guy gave me to my friends, surely it cant be a trap! DUR!) she hasn't actually killed anyone intentionally. And she redeemed herself. Shinn has done neither of these things, and therefore is the worse person [img][/img]

This can be discussed until the end of time since in the end it's all down to personal interpretation. In my opinion, mindfucking people like Frey did is a lot worse than Shinn, who in my opinion hasn't even done anything wrong. So what if the enemies were defenseless, I'd shoot them down regardless. I don't see anything he has done as wrong, though some things are necessary evils... but not in a bad way. Teehee.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
@Jurojin: It was only a matter of time [img][/img]

@DDBen: Even if the marriage was arranged, Sai obviously cared about Frey. We'll never find out exactly how much, but it seems to me he cared enough for me to discard the comparison to a kid losing his toy. As for why I think Frey is a worse person than Shinn.. well, everybody else have already said what I want to say about that matter.

I honestly didn't see Sai heavily invested in Fllay considering the things he lost by having the engagement canceled I think that could just as easily explain his actions as being in love with her. Sai definatly got hurt but I can't say I saw much genuine anything from him. He was overall a pretty minor character for someone who was in just about every episode(if not everyone).

I would have to rewatch seed to make exact statements on his actions but aside from the occasional Fllay its going to be alright moment and getting ticked at Fllay and Kira over what happened I can't think of anything significant he did for Fllay or Kira in that reguard. As I remember he basically slugged Kira and stepped aside.

Side note I think both Fllay and Shinn are horrible people I'm not entirely blaming either one as being better or worse then the other but being forced to choose I'd say that Fllay's actions are more understandable.

[Terracosmo]

True, but still, it's pretty hard to convey how much a minor character cares about someone given the screentime and priorities etc. Maybe if Sai actually had a bigger role we'd see more of how he really felt for Frey. I'm just going by the sudden madness he had when it was revealed that Frey was cheating on him as well as the fact that he still has a photo of him and her on his wall during the after-phase.

Things like that, I believe, are not something you do for someone you don't like a lot.

[Jurojin]

For those that dont want to read the past few Terra and DDBen posts and counterposts, Ill sum it up real quick:

DDBen: Shinn and Fllay were both bad people, but Fllay was the lesser of the two, and has redeemed herself

Terracosmo: Frey was more evil than Shinn.

DDBen: No, Shinn is more evil than Fllay.

Terracosmo: No, Frey.

DDBen: No, Shinn.

(etc, etc.)



Im waiting (with popcorn!) for them to pull out the baseball bats and go at it.

[Terracosmo]

lol thanks for the summary, unfortunately the argument seems to be over already [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[Jurojin]

That was just for those who don't like going back pages and reading what they missed.


No bats/lead pipes this time?


Awwwwww ;_;

[Dannynonsense]

yep always wanted to read those pages but the summary was better hope the debate continues

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
True, but still, it's pretty hard to convey how much a minor character cares about someone given the screentime and priorities etc. Maybe if Sai actually had a bigger role we'd see more of how he really felt for Frey. I'm just going by the sudden madness he had when it was revealed that Frey was cheating on him as well as the fact that he still has a photo of him and her on his wall during the after-phase.

Things like that, I believe, are not something you do for someone you don't like a lot.

I absolutely agree with everything you just said. Another thing I'm really guessing that Sai had never slept with Fllay and thats the part that really made Sai feel rejected as it likely showed a great amount of change in her character. I'm just guessing a princess like Fllay would be unlikely to put out before she was married or given a small island as I doubt daddy would approve.

[LokeXero]

Originally posted by: Dannynonsense
yep always wanted to read those pages but the summary was better hope the debate continues

True, Its like DDBen was a tape that would play then rewind and repeat . The only value in the argument was Terra replies, which are like something id say against DDBen anyway...

Kudos to Terra...

[Terracosmo]

Heh, thanks, glad to hear I'm not the only one who.. ehh.. thinks like I do [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[naruto-kira]

forget about sai and kira, it wasn't kira fault at that time, because all the thing is going threw his head and fllay was there to comfort him, and it not kira fault for fllay going to kira because it wasn't like kira went for her it was fllays fault anyways, he wanted ot use kira to get revenge for his father...

[naruto-kira]

this topic is suppose to talk shit about shinn, because he stupid and blaming shit on ppl, on the other hand kira always try to do the right thing. both shinn and kira had love ones died before his eyes, but kira didn't want to kill all the coordinators or shit like that, he trys to do the right thing, and thats the difference between kira and shinn

shinn= revenge
therefore kira>shinn
kira= justice

jus like wut it said in batman, revenge is not justices....
justice is for peace and harmony.
revenge is for yourself, to make yourself feel better.
that is wut kira is trying to do now, fighting for peace and harmony

lol, i out spoken u all
topic is over!!!

[Terracosmo]

"he trys to do the right thing, and thats the difference between kira and shinn"

So you are saying that Shinn does something he sees as a "wrong" thing? What's right and wrong can be discussed to the end of time.

"that is wut kira is trying to do now, fighting for peace and harmony"

His way of peace and harmony can also be seen as selfish, it's not like Kira says "I will now save the entire world" while Shinn says "The world sucks, it's all about me".
Kira's way of interfering has caused a whole lot of unnecessary casualties so far.

Also, Kira's had a whole damn war to think about what to do and not. He might seem collected now, but he wasn't always like that.
And no, this topic is not "supposed to talk shit about Shinn".

Finally, don't double-post.

[naruto-kira]

what right and wrong maybe discussed in the end of time, unless your a total senseless fool....., dont tell if you kill your mom could be right. and yes...kira is fighting for peace and harmony. he maybe ignorant, but he never lost in senses, wut is love is love, and wut is hate is hate, you yourself knows best, in the begining kira fights either for eaf or zaft, but he knows one thing, he gotta protect his friends, that is SENSE AND TRUE FEELNS, the whole gundam seed talks mainly talks about why kira fights and about finding himself, HE MAYBE STILL BE IGNORANT, but he never lost his feelings and senses, he fights because he doesn't want people dieing, u c it in him too, when he fights he never kills the person, he disarms him. because in the end hate will continue if war continues and everyone wanting vengence

im not saying shinn dont got any feeln's, but the path he is following in, is his anger
and shinn is a example of the war, millions of other parents die in war and there is millions of ppl want vengence, nothing will be solve, and kira knows that....

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: naruto-kira
what right and wrong maybe discussed in the end of time, unless your a total senseless fool....., dont tell if you kill your mom could be right.

I fail to see what killing your parents has to do with this discussion...

Also, Kira might not directly kill anyone but his interference and disarming leads to death regardless. He knows that as well. Putting it in such a light, one could call Kira a naive weakling who is not strong enough to accept the fact that Freedom -kills- regardless of what he does.

Oh, and it's not like Shinn doesn't protect his friends. He has defended the Minerva several times and saved the situation at numerous crucial situations. Shinn might not have as "grand" plans as Kira does, but he is in no way a senseless fool who does "wrong" things just because he actually has the guts to pull a trigger... guts which Kira lost long ago.

[naruto-kira]

selfish- can be sceen in 2 ways

i could say "yes i am selfish."
i could follow it with another philosiphy
we all came from ONE, and i c and treat everyone as ONE, which is like myself
why??? y do parent love there child??? all living things loves there childrens, the birds wahtever u name it, and y ???maybe because the parent c his child as PART OF HIM OR HER, THERE fORE ONE CANNOT HATE ITSELF, i dont suppose

in the other hand u could say this about shin, he is selfish because
he treat peoples like indivauls(not as himself), then that i would say is not so good =P

dont please dont try to use dumb facts, when sometimes its not about fact, its common sense, like i said LOVE IS LOVE AND HATE IS HATE. YOU YOURSELF KNOWS BEST. dont me wut shin is doing is not for hate, think about wut kira is trying to do...
i dout is for hate...i duno wut your feeln..

[Terracosmo]

Damn man, this is war, not a hippie convention.

Also, I don't understand half of your post [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

[naruto-kira]

those guts u say i would call hate....

u fail to c, meanS u fail u know wut wrong and right, U LOST YOUR SENSES MAYBE???
I WAS USING IT AS A EXAMPLE, SINCE U SAY WUT RIGHT AND WRONG CAN BE ARGUE STILL END OF TIME.

IM NOT SAYING HE DOESN'T PROTECT HIS FRIENDS, IM SAYING THE MAIN CAUSE OF HIS FIGHTING IS TO KILL EAF... IN WAR THOSE STUFF HAPPENS HE NO ONE SPECIAL

AND KIRA FIGHTING SAVES ALOT MORE PEOPLE IN THE END OF THE DAY...IT WEAKENS BOTH SIDE, EVEN IF KIRA KILL 1 MOBILE, IN THE OUTCOME 100 SAVED, THAT MEANS 100 LESS PEOPLE IS GONNA TURN OUT LIKE SHIN, I WILL BUY THAT ANYDAY. AND IF U THINK ENUFF, U WILL KNOW THAT AS WELL...

[naruto-kira]

because maybe your to shallow???

Don't double-post. User has been warned.

GotWoot Moderator

[Terracosmo]

The fact that you type in caps lock aren't going to make you any easier to understand...

I guess I get the gist of it though, but saying that I've lost my senses because I don't agree with your values isn't going to get you anywhere. There are many people like Kira in real wars as well, idealists, dreamers and whatnot. Sadly, they often don't get very far. Same with Kira. He tries to not kill anyone, yet his actions lead to needless death. I pick a soldier like Shinn over a dreamer like Kira any day of the week, at least Shinn gets the job done and knows why the hell he is shooting stuff. It might be for revenge, but so what, it obviously gets results.

Revenge isn't such a bad thing. It might lead to more hate, but almost everything human beings do eventually end up in hate. That's just how we work.