Episode 34 (may contain SPOILERS)

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
The second line of reasoning is just plain stupid. And its exactly the crap DDBen is touting. Shinn, who is very pig-headed and head strong to boot, is most certainly NOT an idiot.

I know this is just being picky with words, but I would say that Shinn is an idiot, but that Shinn is not stupid. I know we use the words interchangably in life, but there is a differance.

Originally posted by: DDBen
4: Zaft VS Freedom and AA
Reason: They were attacked
Outcome: Unknown but Freedom and Impulse seem like they are out of commision with Impulse much more likely to show back up at a later point.

Impulse isn't really out of commision. As long as the Core Splendor is fine (which I would assume it is since Shinn didn't die) all they have to do is use a replacement Chest Flyer and recharge it and it is good to go (might want a new Sillouette Pack as well).

Originally posted by: Nai
Yeah, it sure worked wonders on Heine, didn't it? Look, going into a live combat zone, disarming or royally pissing off a guy with your arrogant attitude and then running to the next only to repeat. Sure, it doesn't kill them. But it sure as fuck contributes to their certain death as soon as an opponent spots them. You claim that Shinn isn't willing to accept the consequences of his actions. Well, is Kira?

Kira didn't cause Heine. Heine died because he turned his back on Gaia. He could have assumed that Kira had disabled it, but what would make him think it was any worse then his suit was? There are only 2 real reasons for Heine's death (within the show), 1: Gaia, and 2: Heine making a foolish mistake.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Curium
Kira didn't cause Heine. Heine died because he turned his back on Gaia. He could have assumed that Kira had disabled it, but what would make him think it was any worse then his suit was? There are only 2 real reasons for Heine's death (within the show), 1: Gaia, and 2: Heine making a foolish mistake.

AND WHY DID HE TURN HIS BACK ON GAIA!?

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

Because Kira threw the battle field into DISARRAY. Because Kira god damn attacked Heine.

Making an action leads to consequences. Kira made the action. Heine suffered the consequences. You can't deny the fact that if Kira had not stepped in Heine would have totally demolished Stellar.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
Yeah, it sure worked wonders on Heine, didn't it? Look, going into a live combat zone, disarming or royally pissing off a guy with your arrogant attitude and then running to the next only to repeat. Sure, it doesn't kill them. But it sure as fuck contributes to their certain death as soon as an opponent spots them. You claim that Shinn isn't willing to accept the consequences of his actions. Well, is Kira?

Heine's death was a Darwin award at best he was paying no attention to what was going on and was killed outside of Kira's influence heck Stellar wasn't even aiming for him he just kind of floated into the way.
.

Originally posted by: Curium
Impulse isn't really out of commision. As long as the Core Splendor is fine (which I would assume it is since Shinn didn't die) all they have to do is use a replacement Chest Flyer and recharge it and it is good to go (might want a new Sillouette Pack as well).

I think that Minerva is unlikely to have more replacement impulse parts but that could be very wrong of all the parts shinn used in this battle none of them are repairable. I do expect to see Impulse back up and running at a later point but disabling Impulse so that it would be unable to follow or attack AA was all that Kira was attempting to accomplish.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Heine's death was a Darwin award at best he was paying no attention to what was going on and was killed outside of Kira's influence heck Stellar wasn't even aiming for him he just kind of floated into the way.

Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hands, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Nai
Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hand, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.

yes Heine was watching Kira and thus not paying attention to Kira
yes that caused him to die at the hands of Gaia which cut him in half
but what reason did Heine have to space out in that exact spot?
you see him floating to the left (from Heine's perspective) right in the spot of Gaia
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"
since he obviously didn't need to move to the left to be able to space out and stare at Freedom right?

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hands, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.

I find your reason here to be misguided. Heine was a member of Faith and the fact he choose to yell at a suit that was obviously paying no attention to him mid battle because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault. Kira had disabled Gaia as well at this point he was unaware of its transforming option and additional weapontry until after Heine had been Killed. Its not like anybody said hey Heine's defenceless lets kill him. All that happened was Stellar got ticked off and went to jump Freedom and Heine randomly floated in the way of her attack. The fact that Heine was introduced as a more supporting character before this does not make him any more or less important then any of the orb pilots he had already killed in this battle. Kira can't save everyone all he can do is try and do what he can.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Motteh
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"

Because that's irrelevant to my point? My point is that Kira contributed to the death of Heine, which he obviously did. Nothing else.

Originally posted by: DDBen
because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault.

Looking past the fact that Kira was the one who annoyed him... right? If I came up and kicked you in the crotch ( which I'd simply *LOVE* to do! ), would you not be annoyed at me?

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai

Originally posted by: Motteh
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"

Because that's irrelevant to my point? My point is that Kira contributed to the death of Heine, which he obviously did. Nothing else.

Originally posted by: DDBen
because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault.

Looking past the fact that Kira was the one who annoyed him... right? If I came up and kicked you in the crotch ( which I'd simply *LOVE* to do! ), would you not be annoyed at me?

Being it was the first time Heine had been in action and the Minerva was GREATLY outnumbered there is absolutely no way to say if Heine would have died in this battle without AA having been there. You can say that Kira disabled Heine's main weapons and that Heine was distracted by Kira but in the end he was killed by his own stupidity. Anyway you look at this his death was completely avoidable had he been operating his suit.

Also note being kicked in the balls can cause a person to be unable to move chopping the arm off a MS can not. Chopping off a persons arm on the other hand would hurt more then being kicked in the balls. In the end just because a soldier was owned on the battlefield doesn't mean he can be stupid.

[MeroTZ]

Gaia killed Heine. All of the responsibility lies with her.

Trying to pin it on Kira is ridiculous. Sure, had he not disabled the Gouf... no wait, it got hit from behind without Heine responding. It still would have been hit, undamaged.

This is akin to saying that its not a murderers fault for killing someone, its the person who didn't give them their money.

Stellar killed Heine, and there is no other way to think about it. if not for her actions, and her choices, he might still be alive.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Being it was the first time Heine had been in action and the Minerva was GREATLY outnumbered there is absolutely no way to say if Heine would have died in this battle without AA having been there. You can say that Kira disabled Heine's main weapons and that Heine was distracted by Kira but in the end he was killed by his own stupidity. Anyway you look at this his death was completely avoidable had he been operating his suit.

Actually, Heine died because Kira pissed him off and he lost track of Stellar. Sure, it was a mistake of him. But my point is once again that Kira contributed to his death, which you have now made clear you realize to some extent, which is a good thing.

Originally posted by: DDBenChopping off a persons arm on the other hand would hurt more then being kicked in the balls.

Go find out, why don't you? Really, I don't care. It was a metaphor.

Originally posted by: DDBen
In the end just because a soldier was owned on the battlefield doesn't mean he can be stupid.

There's a big difference between being stupid and being antagonized by a prick thinking he owns the world. You're the former. Heine was the latter.

So, let me throw out three simple facts to sum it up:

Kira and the Archangel threw the battlefield into confusion ( which appears to be a hobby of theirs ).

Heine got caught in that confusion and went after Kira after being totally humiliated.

Stellar got caught in that confusion, and as she charged for Kira in a rage she sliced Heine.

Notice the first thing that happend in this chain of events? Indeed.

Case closed.

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Gaia killed Heine. All of the responsibility lies with her.

Kira killed Stellar. All of the responsibility lies with him.

You can't have the cake and eat it. SORRY!

Oh, and he wouldn't have been in that position in the first place if it was not for Kira. So much for being hit in that position undamaged, eh.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Nai

Originally posted by: Motteh
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"

Because that's irrelevant to my point? My point is that Kira contributed to the death of Heine, which he obviously did. Nothing else.

yes Kira contributed to Heine's death
but so did Heine himself
Kira did in the manner of cutting of Heine's Gouf's right front arm which caused Heine to zone out
but given the fact Heine was in FAITH and thus an experienced soldier should be more then enough reason
to see that Heine should have been able to avoid the zoning out

in the end the main contributor to Heine's demise was the beamsaber attached to Gaia's wing that ran him through