Episode 34 (may contain SPOILERS)

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Ehm, okay, so you're saying that the writers have put in a subtle theme which consists of Shinn really not liking Stellar at all, that only people like you and DDBen can see?
Riiiight...

Terra your either unwilling to read what I actually post or unable to comprehend simple words I'm really not sure which. I have never once said that Shinn didn't care about Stellar. All I have said is his actions of passing her off on Neo shows he wasn't willing to take responsability for any of his actions. Shinn has yet to show any remorse at all in the entire series. The closest thing to doing so was when he dumped Stellar in a lake and vowed revenge on freedom. Except Freedom didn't kill her he did.

I believe Shinn saw Stellar as the little sister he had lost before the war and possibly even as a love interest. I believe Stellar was a drugged up psyco who saw Shinn as a big brother trying to protect her. While I also think Stellar had a crush on Neo and saw him as a sort of father figure.

I think Shinn who was unable or unwilling to do what was needed to protect Stellar in turn returned her to her Father figure/boyfriend who she seemed to unconditionally trust and who she was ALWAYS calling for. Shinn had other options he could have attempted the option he choose was to give Stellar to Neo so that he was responsable for taking care of her. If he had ever regretted this action he would have blamed Neo for her death and not Kira. If he had wanted to protect her he would have tried harder to do so instead of how he did it. The only example in Seed that compares is Kira freeing Lacus and giving her to Athrun. The differnce is Lacus had nothing to do with the war at the time she was basically just a civilian pop star and he was giving her to his best friend from elementary school who also happened to be her fiance, because he disagreed with using her as a human shield.

I know I personally if I really cared about someone in that situation wouldn't have given her to someone who might help her. Instead I would try to make sure she got help and see it through until the end. As far as thinking like Shinn does I'm afraid I can't do that as I'm unable to relate to having my parents and siblings killed in front of me in a massive war.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: DDBen
please read MeroTZ post above yours as it is well written and also states many of the points I have made quite well perhaps in a much better organised way then I have managed at a few point.

Also the reason I have repeated myself in such a manor is because of certain close minded morons who keep accusing everyone who disagree's with them of having a hatred of Shinn and love of Kira.

my post and MeroTZ's were written around the same time
and i considered it well written but just like yours i can't fully agree with them

and you say you repeated yourself because of "closed minded morons who keep accusing everyone who disagree's with them of having a hatred of Shinn and a love of Kira"
but as you are not fond of the things Shinn does in the show
then why are you defending people who are defending Shinn?
atleast that's how the bold line should be interpreted in my opinion

[Terracosmo]

Merotz, you said that it was a bad thing to ignore subtle themes. My reply to you was only meant as a way to convey that I don't think of the "Shinn giving Stellar to Neo" scenario as a subtle theme, but rather an insane scenario.

DDBen, if your posts are what you classify as "simple words" I'm glad that I'm giving you the image of not understanding them. I think of them as utterly stupid, which is why I'm more or less making fun of you in my every reply. When I write that "Shinn doesn't like Stellar" that is not what I mean, it's my way of ridiculing your theories. But strangely you keep getting hanged up on the words I write instead of understanding the meaning. I don't know what the word for this is, but hopefully you understand.

After all, you're not unable to understand simple words like I am. [img]i/expressions/rolleye.gif[/img]

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Motteh
my post and MeroTZ's were written around the same time
and i considered it well written but just like yours i can't fully agree with them

and you say you repeated yourself because of "closed minded morons who keep accusing everyone who disagree's with them of having a hatred of Shinn and a love of Kira"
but as you are not fond of the things Shinn does in the show
then why are you defending people who are defending Shinn?
atleast that's how the bold line should be interpreted in my opinion

I know your posts were written around the same time and as mine followed yours I felt it better to point you to that post you might not have read rather then making virtually the same reply.

as for the statement you placed in bold. I worded it that way as very few people use the term Shinn lovers or Kira Haters. You should not in fact take this as something defending those who are defending Shinn. Its more of a general statement for those who can't think of a argument for what the person has stated so instead they resort to pointless inaccurate labeling.

Also note. I'm sure the majority of people at this point "Like Kira" and "Hate Shinn". As thats how the writers want you to think about the characters at this point. I notice the vast majority of those who "Hate Kira" at this point are refering largely to a supirioty complex that Kira has in fact not shown and are basically repeating Dullindales propeganda about how he just confuses the battlefield.

4 battles Kira has been in and the reasons.
1: EA + Orb VS Zaft
Reason: To get Orb to stay out of the fight.
Outcome: Battle posponed with Heine being killed and Minerva's main gun being destroyed.
2: EA + Orb VS Zaft part 2
Reason: To follow through on a decision because thats what Lacus told them to do.
Outcome: Heavy damage on all sides Orbs main vessel is destroyed as well as several Orb pilots and soldiers going over to the AA, Abyss destroyed, Minerva heavily damaged and left with only Impulse, EA left with only Neo and his Windom.
3: Destroy VS anything that moves
Reason: To stop the machine thats commiting Genocide.
Outcome: Destroy was destroyed, Chaos was destroyed, Neo was captured and taken onto the AA. Kira Saved Shinn's life and Stellar was killed.
4: Zaft VS Freedom and AA
Reason: They were attacked
Outcome: Unknown but Freedom and Impulse seem like they are out of commision with Impulse much more likely to show back up at a later point.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

They make more sense then most of the things you spout. Sometimes they are a little farfetched, but they are always well thought out.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: DDBen
as for the statement you placed in bold. I worded it that way as very few people use the term Shinn lovers or Kira Haters. You should not in fact take this as something defending those who are defending Shinn. Its more of a general statement for those who can't think of a argument for what the person has stated so instead they resort to pointless inaccurate labeling.

Also note. I'm sure the majority of people at this point "Like Kira" and "Hate Shinn". As thats how the writers want you to think about the characters at this point. I notice the vast majority of those who "Hate Kira" at this point are refering largely to a supirioty complex that Kira has in fact not shown and are basically repeating Dullindales propeganda about how he just confuses the battlefield.

well i like both Shinn and Kira as characters but i myself prefer Shinn
and not because i think Kira is god-like or anything but because as a character i find Shinn refreshing compared to Kira as he is now and was at the end of Seed
that's my only reason why i like Shinn better then Kira at the moment
if that proves to be an invalid reason in anyone's eyes then that's too bad

also saying that i shouldn't take it as something defending those who are defending Shinn is pretty difficult
since it pretty much sounds that way, even though you may have intended it to mean otherwise, i think you should've chosen for a different way to say it so that misunderstandings like this would've been avoided

[Nai]

Originally posted by: DDBen
I notice the vast majority of those who "Hate Kira" at this point are refering largely to a supirioty complex that Kira has in fact not shown and are basically repeating Dullindales propeganda about how he just confuses the battlefield.

He's constantly showing his superiority complex by not taking his opponents seriously ( which amusingly enough was one of the big reasons as to why he lost to Shinn ), and he's constantly throwing battle fields into disarray by attacking both sides. How much clearer can it get, really?

The only propaganda here seems to be the oh so popular line "KIRA IS INFALLIBLE." I just don't buy it.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai

Originally posted by: DDBen
I notice the vast majority of those who "Hate Kira" at this point are refering largely to a supirioty complex that Kira has in fact not shown and are basically repeating Dullindales propeganda about how he just confuses the battlefield.

He's constantly showing his superiority complex by not taking his opponents seriously ( which amusingly enough was one of the big reasons as to why he lost to Shinn ), and he's constantly throwing battle fields into disarray by attacking both sides. How much clearer can it get, really?

The only propaganda here seems to be the oh so popular line "KIRA IS INFALLIBLE." I just don't buy it.

No Kira simply doesn't want anybody else to die by his hand. He's sick of killing that has nothing to do with him having a Superiority complex. His Ideology is simply to not kill others if there is any way to prevent it. Disabling suits is simply a way to prevent having to kill those people.

[Nai]

Yeah, it sure worked wonders on Heine, didn't it? Look, going into a live combat zone, disarming or royally pissing off a guy with your arrogant attitude and then running to the next only to repeat. Sure, it doesn't kill them. But it sure as fuck contributes to their certain death as soon as an opponent spots them. You claim that Shinn isn't willing to accept the consequences of his actions. Well, is Kira?

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
The second line of reasoning is just plain stupid. And its exactly the crap DDBen is touting. Shinn, who is very pig-headed and head strong to boot, is most certainly NOT an idiot.

I know this is just being picky with words, but I would say that Shinn is an idiot, but that Shinn is not stupid. I know we use the words interchangably in life, but there is a differance.

Originally posted by: DDBen
4: Zaft VS Freedom and AA
Reason: They were attacked
Outcome: Unknown but Freedom and Impulse seem like they are out of commision with Impulse much more likely to show back up at a later point.

Impulse isn't really out of commision. As long as the Core Splendor is fine (which I would assume it is since Shinn didn't die) all they have to do is use a replacement Chest Flyer and recharge it and it is good to go (might want a new Sillouette Pack as well).

Originally posted by: Nai
Yeah, it sure worked wonders on Heine, didn't it? Look, going into a live combat zone, disarming or royally pissing off a guy with your arrogant attitude and then running to the next only to repeat. Sure, it doesn't kill them. But it sure as fuck contributes to their certain death as soon as an opponent spots them. You claim that Shinn isn't willing to accept the consequences of his actions. Well, is Kira?

Kira didn't cause Heine. Heine died because he turned his back on Gaia. He could have assumed that Kira had disabled it, but what would make him think it was any worse then his suit was? There are only 2 real reasons for Heine's death (within the show), 1: Gaia, and 2: Heine making a foolish mistake.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Curium
Kira didn't cause Heine. Heine died because he turned his back on Gaia. He could have assumed that Kira had disabled it, but what would make him think it was any worse then his suit was? There are only 2 real reasons for Heine's death (within the show), 1: Gaia, and 2: Heine making a foolish mistake.

AND WHY DID HE TURN HIS BACK ON GAIA!?

Oh. My. Fucking. God.

Because Kira threw the battle field into DISARRAY. Because Kira god damn attacked Heine.

Making an action leads to consequences. Kira made the action. Heine suffered the consequences. You can't deny the fact that if Kira had not stepped in Heine would have totally demolished Stellar.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
Yeah, it sure worked wonders on Heine, didn't it? Look, going into a live combat zone, disarming or royally pissing off a guy with your arrogant attitude and then running to the next only to repeat. Sure, it doesn't kill them. But it sure as fuck contributes to their certain death as soon as an opponent spots them. You claim that Shinn isn't willing to accept the consequences of his actions. Well, is Kira?

Heine's death was a Darwin award at best he was paying no attention to what was going on and was killed outside of Kira's influence heck Stellar wasn't even aiming for him he just kind of floated into the way.
.

Originally posted by: Curium
Impulse isn't really out of commision. As long as the Core Splendor is fine (which I would assume it is since Shinn didn't die) all they have to do is use a replacement Chest Flyer and recharge it and it is good to go (might want a new Sillouette Pack as well).

I think that Minerva is unlikely to have more replacement impulse parts but that could be very wrong of all the parts shinn used in this battle none of them are repairable. I do expect to see Impulse back up and running at a later point but disabling Impulse so that it would be unable to follow or attack AA was all that Kira was attempting to accomplish.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Heine's death was a Darwin award at best he was paying no attention to what was going on and was killed outside of Kira's influence heck Stellar wasn't even aiming for him he just kind of floated into the way.

Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hands, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Nai
Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hand, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.

yes Heine was watching Kira and thus not paying attention to Kira
yes that caused him to die at the hands of Gaia which cut him in half
but what reason did Heine have to space out in that exact spot?
you see him floating to the left (from Heine's perspective) right in the spot of Gaia
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"
since he obviously didn't need to move to the left to be able to space out and stare at Freedom right?

[Jurojin]

Originally posted by: Curium

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

They make more sense then most of the things you spout. Sometimes they are a little farfetched, but they are always well thought out.

Well thought out until he starts dismissing very plain and what should be obvious facts:

"Neo would pilot Freedom if Freedom was destroyed and the pilot was killed in it." While the point of "Neo/Mwu is the only expendable person here" is valid, the rest of it is totally ridiculous. Unless Kira and AA took stupid pills that morning, there is no possible or plausible reason for them to either leave Freedom unlocked so it could be stolen, or to let him pilot it to protect AA. That is FACT. Which means that it should have been discussed for no more than 1, 2 posts at max- but in the previous thread, it extended pages because he refused to acknowledge that Neo/Mwu could never, with in the realm of even remote possibility, fly Freedom in the next episode vs. Shinn. And DDBen, don't think to dismiss this part simply because "it didn't happen, so it's not important." The point is that you keep making up almost baseless theories on what's happening. The ONLY thing you had to go on was "Neo/Mwu is expendable" but after that, you should have easily seen it was never going to happen in any possible respect.

"Kira let Shinn destroy Freedom (or heavily damage it) so he could let the AA get away." No. No no no no no no no no no no NO. Kira had his attention divided b/w the AA getting hammered, and Shinn going at him full tilt. He may be the uber UC, but he's still human. I can not and will not accept any further attempts to god-mod (in case you need an explanation of the term, to just toss on powers/abilites on a character just to justify losing, in the sense that you can say "He did it on purpose") Kira. He is just fine the way he is. He has been kicked around when he's distracted before, why the hell should this time be any different? Did you just blank out Seed where the druggies had the upper hand on him before Athrun saved him? And the later when they took off Freedom's head? Stop it. Just stop it. It is getting SAD.

"Shinn is trying to pass responsibility off." She was dying! He felt he didn't have time to argue with the captain for permission(and possibly get put in the brig for insubordination), he knew that the ONLY place that Stellar would be able to survive would be with the EAF, and that it was either give Stellar to the EAF, or let her die. That was his line of reasoning, that was his motive. Did he care about what she might be responsible for in the future (Destroy)? No. Because that was not his concern at the time- it was only about making sure she didn't die. If he had let her die, would he have been protecting her? No. And any other thoughts of "He could have stolen tech" or "He could have surrendered with her" are just stupid because he doesn't have the know how, and do you seriously think they would let a Coordinator run around the ship outside of the brig without a dozen or so guns at his back at all times? He did what he HAD to do to make sure she lived. It was the ONLY option other than letting her die, as far as he was concerned.

Shinn has not had time to grieve or to reflect yet. His character is one that focuses on something, then moves on to the next one. He's been obsessing over Freedom, now it's down. Now he has a chance to sit back and reflect. He hasn't had one yet.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai
Honestly, are we watching the same show here? Heine was paying attention to Kira after Kira found it appropriate to step in and bitchslap him only to fly away ( which he does far too often, by the way). Kira sure as hell influenced his death. But, I do guess Kira is happy as long as the blood isn't directly on his hands, eh?

This is why I consider him a self-centered egomaniac. Hope you can see that a bit more clearer, now. And cease claiming people hating Kira are baseless and spoonfed propaganda directly from Dullindal 24/7.

I find your reason here to be misguided. Heine was a member of Faith and the fact he choose to yell at a suit that was obviously paying no attention to him mid battle because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault. Kira had disabled Gaia as well at this point he was unaware of its transforming option and additional weapontry until after Heine had been Killed. Its not like anybody said hey Heine's defenceless lets kill him. All that happened was Stellar got ticked off and went to jump Freedom and Heine randomly floated in the way of her attack. The fact that Heine was introduced as a more supporting character before this does not make him any more or less important then any of the orb pilots he had already killed in this battle. Kira can't save everyone all he can do is try and do what he can.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Motteh
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"

Because that's irrelevant to my point? My point is that Kira contributed to the death of Heine, which he obviously did. Nothing else.

Originally posted by: DDBen
because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault.

Looking past the fact that Kira was the one who annoyed him... right? If I came up and kicked you in the crotch ( which I'd simply *LOVE* to do! ), would you not be annoyed at me?

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Nai

Originally posted by: Motteh
so why couldn't you just think something like "if only he wouldn't have moved he wouldn't have died"

Because that's irrelevant to my point? My point is that Kira contributed to the death of Heine, which he obviously did. Nothing else.

Originally posted by: DDBen
because he was annoyed is not Kira's fault.

Looking past the fact that Kira was the one who annoyed him... right? If I came up and kicked you in the crotch ( which I'd simply *LOVE* to do! ), would you not be annoyed at me?

Being it was the first time Heine had been in action and the Minerva was GREATLY outnumbered there is absolutely no way to say if Heine would have died in this battle without AA having been there. You can say that Kira disabled Heine's main weapons and that Heine was distracted by Kira but in the end he was killed by his own stupidity. Anyway you look at this his death was completely avoidable had he been operating his suit.

Also note being kicked in the balls can cause a person to be unable to move chopping the arm off a MS can not. Chopping off a persons arm on the other hand would hurt more then being kicked in the balls. In the end just because a soldier was owned on the battlefield doesn't mean he can be stupid.

[MeroTZ]

Gaia killed Heine. All of the responsibility lies with her.

Trying to pin it on Kira is ridiculous. Sure, had he not disabled the Gouf... no wait, it got hit from behind without Heine responding. It still would have been hit, undamaged.

This is akin to saying that its not a murderers fault for killing someone, its the person who didn't give them their money.

Stellar killed Heine, and there is no other way to think about it. if not for her actions, and her choices, he might still be alive.

[Nai]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Being it was the first time Heine had been in action and the Minerva was GREATLY outnumbered there is absolutely no way to say if Heine would have died in this battle without AA having been there. You can say that Kira disabled Heine's main weapons and that Heine was distracted by Kira but in the end he was killed by his own stupidity. Anyway you look at this his death was completely avoidable had he been operating his suit.

Actually, Heine died because Kira pissed him off and he lost track of Stellar. Sure, it was a mistake of him. But my point is once again that Kira contributed to his death, which you have now made clear you realize to some extent, which is a good thing.

Originally posted by: DDBenChopping off a persons arm on the other hand would hurt more then being kicked in the balls.

Go find out, why don't you? Really, I don't care. It was a metaphor.

Originally posted by: DDBen
In the end just because a soldier was owned on the battlefield doesn't mean he can be stupid.

There's a big difference between being stupid and being antagonized by a prick thinking he owns the world. You're the former. Heine was the latter.

So, let me throw out three simple facts to sum it up:

Kira and the Archangel threw the battlefield into confusion ( which appears to be a hobby of theirs ).

Heine got caught in that confusion and went after Kira after being totally humiliated.

Stellar got caught in that confusion, and as she charged for Kira in a rage she sliced Heine.

Notice the first thing that happend in this chain of events? Indeed.

Case closed.

Originally posted by: MeroTZ
Gaia killed Heine. All of the responsibility lies with her.

Kira killed Stellar. All of the responsibility lies with him.

You can't have the cake and eat it. SORRY!

Oh, and he wouldn't have been in that position in the first place if it was not for Kira. So much for being hit in that position undamaged, eh.