Episode 34 (may contain SPOILERS)

[valkirie19]

Being a soldier in the Army, we are taught blindly following orders doesn't make it right. There are always orders you know to follow or disobey. Heck he didn't even follow simple rules of engagement. Shinn could have tried to take the time to figure another way of capturing Kira but chose revenge. I mean come on do you think if he was given orders to take them alive he would've. I've had friends and family members lose there lives in war but blind rage doesn't solve anything, it just gets more people hurt. Shinn hasn't thought about it but he's just as bad a person as the mobile suit pilots that killed his family. He's killed someone's father, brother etc... Shinn is a superb pilot. How hard could it be to disable a moblie suit if Kira and Athrun can do it. He doesn't even care that Stellar left hundreds in worse condition. Don't get me wrong, I thought Shinn was an ok character at first until I noticed he doesn't believe in anything except vengance. If someone showed him what he was doing I'm think he may change his ways.

[qilinkiddo]

the death of shinn family causes him to be sort of loner...
it causes shinn to think/act differently from those with family...family love o.O

he was just a little young 14 years old boy...who have mayu,his father and his mother and their love
living in a world that was filled with happiness
but however...its too sudden that all your family members around you have died in an INSTANT...
its too much for shiinn to handle...causes him to see life negatively...
causing him to see things in hatred instead of understanding/concern/love

shinn actually love orb and have faith in orb when his 14 and orb idealism
shinn parents also believe that they would not got into war as long they r in orb
the hatred against orb was due to his faith and love for orb...
in one episode i do remembing athrun said that something like
shinn blaming on orb aint it because of the faith shinn put in orb

the only way to prevent stellar from dying is to return stellar back to EAF...
and when you saw your love ones dying...you would not consider what would she do in the future...
the only thing you think off is whether she could stay alive for now

the only thing shinn tries to protect is stellar...
stellar causes a big change in shinn for the first time that shinn actually tried to protect someone...
also its true that kira killedied to fire and killed three towns o stellar only because stellar trf civilians and who can say its wrong

but its only natural that you blame the one who causes her death directly(your love ones) somemore
when your love ones death, i dont believe you would be bother to consider who kill her indirectly
but you would hate and wants to kill the one who causes her/his death directly thus its kira

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: qilinkiddo
the only way to prevent stellar from dying is to return stellar back to EAF...
and when you saw your love ones dying...you would not consider what would she do in the future...
the only thing you think off is whether she could stay alive for now

Actually Shinn was mearly hoping by giving Stellar back to Neo that someone else would protect her as he is simply not the kind of guy who protects anything. Unless you can give me a better reason for him giving Neo that shiney thing Stellar gave him. This was a action made by Shinn to forget about Stellar and move on with his revenge. The fact before Stellar was put in Destroy that her memory was not altered and that she was allowed to wear the thingy as a pendant is a really wierd move that Neo made considering it would obviously be capable of downgrading her ability to use destroy VS the Minerva which at the current time is the Flagship of Zaft.

This is the main reason why I have previously stated that Shinn was not trying to protect Stellar with his actions. If Shinn had kept the pendant and recalled that he was fighting so people wouldn't have to suffer like Stellar has.

[PSJ]

Okay DDBen we know that you don't like Shinn but that doesn't make him totally selfish and revenge driven. I don't know what you are trying to pull with your posts, maybe a Shinn bashing marathon? We get it already you hate the guy, okey!

He gave Stellar back to Neo because he thought that was the best solution at the moment. How would Shinn know that Neo was going to put Stellar into a new unit and make her fight again? It was better to give her back to Neo and hope that he kept his promise since the other alternative was to let her be killed and used by ZAFT. While im at it i'll say that Shinn had no idea that Neo's Windam was the only operational suit on the EAF ship so he couldn't just have gone there and taken the necessary equipment to keep Stellar alive and leave.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: PSJ
Okay DDBen we know that you don't like Shinn but that doesn't make him totally selfish and revenge driven. I don't know what you are trying to pull with your posts, maybe a Shinn bashing marathon? We get it already you hate the guy, okey!

He gave Stellar back to Neo because he thought that was the best solution at the moment. How would Shinn know that Neo was going to put Stellar into a new unit and make her fight again? It was better to give her back to Neo and hope that he kept his promise since the other alternative was to let her be killed and used by ZAFT. While im at it i'll say that Shinn had no idea that Neo's Windam was the only operational suit on the EAF ship so he couldn't just have gone there and taken the necessary equipment to keep Stellar alive and leave.

Nope he didn't know that for a fact but he also didn't even try to do it. That is meerly one of several things he could have attempted. Also PSJ give me a reason he gave her the thingy in the jar when he gave her back. The first time they meet she gave it to him and he kept it hoping to see her again. When on the other hand he gave her back to Neo he passed off everything that could remind him of her.

Also for the love of all that is holy people I don't like Shinn's characters actions in the anime but I do not hate the guys writing. I personally couldn't care less if he lives or dies I'm simply stating how I interpret the meaning behind his actions at any given time. I don't have Kira plushies all over my room for me to hug and Shinn ones to take out back and shoot. Also PSJ you have stated my EXACT position on Shinn, in the thread about the theory of Shinn haters VS Kira Lovers, word for word of the one I've stated.

Shinns character remains completely driven by revenge what he's avenging has changed from time to time but in the end his only motivation is to avange and in no way protect anything.

edit: I mentioned the wrong thread up above and changed it to the correct one.

[PSJ]

The fact that you think someone that is desperately trying to save a loved ones life is capable of thinking clearly just shows how much thought you gave this. Shinn for the first time in his life since his beloved sister and family died had someone he loved and "loved" him back. This made him do what he did he tried his best to save her, he is a 16 year old boy not god. Everybody does mistakes and questionable things.

As for the post i did, first of all it's in this discussion. Second with that post i think it clearly states that he cares about Stellar enough to do something totally against the army code. However i do agree that it supports your thoughts a little to much, i dislike Shinn like shit on my shoe. That could be the reason why that post came out the way it did, which was the wrong way.

[Terracosmo]

I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: PSJ
The fact that you think someone that is desperately trying to save a loved ones life is capable of thinking clearly just shows how much thought you gave this. Shinn for the first time in his life since his beloved sister and family died had someone he loved and "loved" him back. This made him do what he did he tried his best to save her, he is a 16 year old boy not god. Everybody does mistakes and questionable things.

As for the post i did, first of all it's in this discussion. Second with that post i think it clearly states that he cares about Stellar enough to do something totally against the army code. However i do agree that it supports your thoughts a little to much, i dislike Shinn like shit on my shoe. That could be the reason why that post came out the way it did, which was the wrong way.

I have absolutely no disagreement what so ever that Shinn's actions were all he could come up with doing. Arguing that it was anything less then routine for Shinn to disobey direct orders is absolutely pointless as the guy does nothing he's told reguardless of who outranks him. Exactly what I'm saying is Shinn when he gave her to Neo absolutely wanted to believe that she would go off to a bunny farm to live a life without war. However, I don't think there was a romantic love between Stellar and Shinn much more a brother sister vibe. In my world Stellars love interest always was Neo not Shinn and that she cared about Shinn in the way you would look upto a big brother who protects you from harm. The point that is once he gave back Stellar Shinn expected never to see her again he was also doing his best to forget about it and was trying to convince himself that she would goto said "bunny farm". This line of thinking that Stellar, who is nothing more then a tool of war as she can not live without drugs and was made that way only to fight, would never have to fight again however is very childish and naive. This just shows the immaturity of his character. The point is this move nomatter where Stellar ended up was made so that he could forget about her because he didn't want to admit to himself he was not strong enough or capable enough to do what he would need to in order to truely protect her. Then the fact he blames Kira for killing her and not himself or Neo. I don't think anyone can disagree Kira is at best third in line for the death of Stellar.

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I wonder if there's anyone here who actually thinks DDBen's Shinn theories make sense.

I find it hard to believe you guys have such a hard time making sense of them. While they might be a bit extreme, they are certainly a valid pyschological assesment of Shinn's actions.

Dont forget, Shinn is 16. he's a child. And Children dont really have the greatest grasp on huge emotional issues. He started being screwed up beyond belief the moment his family died and he didn't (survivors guilt, anyone?). His next action, joining up with the one military group who wasn't involved in his loss, isn't exactly the most rational choice.

When he met Stelllar.... well, what could he be thinking? He rescues a pretty girl, who seems confused and scared. One who takes her clothes off in front of him. What is he supposed to be thinking at this point. Stellar was an emotional three year old, and I find it hard to argue differently. While she likes Shinn, I bet she would have liked any fireman or rescue worker who pulled her out of the ocean, told her everything was fine, and that they were going ot protect her just as well. Shinn is just attracted to the fact that she genuinely likes him (and she does).

When Shinn passes Stellar back to Neo, it is a bit of a Copout. He knows he cant protect her, so he passes her off to someone who can. He knows she is probably going ot be jsut as abused by the EAF (he saw what they did to the Extended in those labs, rememeber? I dont Imagine it was any better than what ZAFT had in Store), so he makes Neo make a promise that he (Shinn) knows Neo cant keep. To make himself feel better. Amazingly enough, Neo apparently does try to keep his promise, by putting Stellar in Destroy (better than Chaos... I dont believe Stellar was the better candidate than Sting, I think Neo wanted her to be safe). Notice, more evidence of Stellars 3 year old emotional personality. "Scary things are coming, and we are all gonna die if Stellar doesn't kill them" is the type of thing you'd tell a 3 year old with a gun, not a soldier.

Then, when Stellar dies, Shinn doesn't try to come to terms with the fact that his hesitation costed innocent lives. The fact that Stellar, whom he was trying to protect, was now a murderer of hundreds of thousands of people. Or that, had he not given stellar back to the EAF, millions would not now be forced from their homes and likely to die from a lack of food, shelter, and god knows what else.

No, he decides to blame Kira for Stellars death.

It seems to me that Shinn is incapable of taking responsibilty for his actions, and that hasn't changed at any point in the series.

Oh well, dont take this as Shinn bashing, because to me its not. I think the fact that such an in depth pyschological evaluation of Shinn is possible is a testament to how well his character is written, and in my mind that is how characters are first judged. The fact that I hate the character comes much later in the evaluation.

Kefka was an asshole, but I still think he was the coolest damned villain of all time.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: DDBen
Also PSJ give me a reason he gave her the thingy in the jar when he gave her back.

i'm not PSJ but i will give a reason
ever considered the fact he gave to her in the hope that it would help her remind him?
he also said that "she liked it" to Neo when he gave it to her
plus the fact that he added "don't forget about me" right before he ran back to his MS and whiping the tears from his eyes

also DDBen, it's funny how every 3rd or 4th post of you is the almost the same
the phrase "i don't like his actions but i don't dislike the way he's written" comes up every single time
don't you think we know you think that way after 4 times?

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Motteh

Originally posted by: DDBen
Also PSJ give me a reason he gave her the thingy in the jar when he gave her back.

i'm not PSJ but i will give a reason
ever considered the fact he gave to her in the hope that it would help her remind him?
he also said that "she liked it" to Neo when he gave it to her
plus the fact that he added "don't forget about me" right before he ran back to his MS and whiping the tears from his eyes

also DDBen, it's funny how every 3rd or 4th post of you is the almost the same
the phrase "i don't like his actions but i don't dislike the way he's written" comes up every single time
don't you think we know you think that way after 4 times?

Nope actually I don't see that reasoning as valid at all as last time he gave her something aka the hankerchief that she was holding onto after there first meeting she was brain wiped and it was taken away.

please read MeroTZ post above yours as it is well written and also states many of the points I have made quite well perhaps in a much better organised way then I have managed at a few point.

Also the reason I have repeated myself in such a manor is because of certain close minded morons who keep accusing everyone who disagree's with them of having a hatred of Shinn and love of Kira.

[Jurojin]

We've only had, what, 2 episodes after her death? So far he's been concentrating on Kira. Now that Kira is out of the picture (as far as he knows) MAYBE he'll reflect on things. You people aren't even giving him a chance.


He gave Stellar the shell peice to help her remember him- matter of fact, that was what he said when he did give her to Neo.



I just find this "He could have stolen equipment" line to be utter crap. Shinn is NOT a medical scientist- he would have less of a clue than any of you on what would be needed to keep her alive, and none of you can honestly say what would be needed for her.


Saying it's a copout to give Stellar to people that can keep her alive is utterly heartless, especially in Shinn's case. Leaving her on the Minerva to die was not an option: If it were someone YOU cared for, would you just sit there and watch her writhe and twist and gasp from all the pain and suffering her body was going through? Or would you give her the ONLY chance, no matter how remote, at living she had?

This is even more compounded for Shinn, since he's already had his entire family wiped out in front of him. Leaving her to die scared and in pain is as horrifying to him as it should be to any sane person.

[Terracosmo]

DDBen: The only reason you think MeroTZ's post is well-written is because it's the first one ever (hopefully) that agrees with your theories.

Anyone who thinks like you two do are overanalyzing like hell, even throwing in insignificant factors such as his age. As if age even means shit in anime...
There is no sense behind it. Everything we need to know has been portrayed in the show. If Shinn even had the slightest secret plan of destinies to "get rid of" Stellar by giving her to Neo, the show would have told us. Now can't people just shut up and stop making up bullshit?

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
We've only had, what, 2 episodes after her death? So far he's been concentrating on Kira. Now that Kira is out of the picture (as far as he knows) MAYBE he'll reflect on things. You people aren't even giving him a chance.

And yet he had time to study and reason out a way to defeat Freedom. He chose not to reflect on her death, and that is what the obvious problem is.

He gave Stellar the shell peice to help her remember him- matter of fact, that was what he said when he did give her to Neo.

True. He gave it to her in front of an enemy with a vested interest in her not remembering him.

I just find this "He could have stolen equipment" line to be utter crap. Shinn is NOT a medical scientist- he would have less of a clue than any of you on what would be needed to keep her alive, and none of you can honestly say what would be needed for her.

Absolutely!

Saying it's a copout to give Stellar to people that can keep her alive is utterly heartless, especially in Shinn's case. Leaving her on the Minerva to die was not an option: If it were someone YOU cared for, would you just sit there and watch her writhe and twist and gasp from all the pain and suffering her body was going through? Or would you give her the ONLY chance, no matter how remote, at living she had?

Except he knows what the EAF has done to Extended. He has seen the labs. And he knows that eventual death and research on her body are in fact not worse than the potential horrors that the EAF might visit on an Extended subject with protracted withdrawal from their machines. He should have known that he was probably delivering her to worse suffering than she was already in, but he chose to ignore that possibility.

This is even more compounded for Shinn, since he's already had his entire family wiped out in front of him. Leaving her to die scared and in pain is as horrifying to him as it should be to any sane person.

Except that a sane person would first have confronted the captain. Maybe used some of that clout he gains by being a "Super Ace" to rouse some support for Stellars human rights. There were a lot of other options (god forbid he listen to their rationale on how studying stellar might save lives in the future) but he chose one that was liekly to lead to several deaths (namely those of Zaft pilots) and in fact lead to the slaughter of thousands (maybe millions) of innocent lives.

Shinn did not make a sane choice. To quote that old knight guy in Indiana Jones 3, "He chose poorly"

EDIT: In response to Terra's previous post, I think you are doing a great disservice to the writers by ignoring the sublties they have built into the show.

Taking things at face value is rarely the best idea.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
DDBen: The only reason you think MeroTZ's post is well-written is because it's the first one ever (hopefully) that agrees with your theories.

Anyone who thinks like you two do are overanalyzing like hell, even throwing in insignificant factors such as his age. As if age even means shit in anime...
There is no sense behind it. Everything we need to know has been portrayed in the show. If Shinn even had the slightest secret plan of destinies to "get rid of" Stellar by giving her to Neo, the show would have told us. Now can't people just shut up and stop making up bullshit?

So Terra is this anything like you saying you had to much respect for the writers to believe Neo was Mwu because it was to obvious. Yet now you state that the writers have to spell everything out in minute detail for it to be true.

I happen to give the writers proper credit for doing research and showing things as they would happen in real life. This may be a anime but its one thats based on reality and the horrors of war. Simply go make up your mind before posting things that completely contradict arguements you're already trying to make.

Originally posted by: Jurojin
I just find this "He could have stolen equipment" line to be utter crap. Shinn is NOT a medical scientist- he would have less of a clue than any of you on what would be needed to keep her alive, and none of you can honestly say what would be needed for her.

This is correct he is not a scientist, however, this is no less likely to work then giving her back to Neo to make her fight. In the end none of the choices were good its just the fact that the choice he made was to have someone else take care of it.

[Jurojin]

While that may be true from an outside perspective, thats not is what is in question here. Im defending him in so far as WHY he did what he did, i.e. his rationale, though I do agree that handing her over to the EAF was certain to put her in a position that she was in.

Youre painting him as NOT wanting responsibility for Stellar or her actions. That is simply untrue. People dont risk court martial and execution for not wanting to be responsible in the manner youre saying. He knew that ZAFT was not going to treat her well, and couldnt save her from death due to lack of time for research. He knew what the EAF had done to her and others in the past during the training phases, but that isnt necessarily a reflection of whats going on with her right now. If it were you and the only options in your skewed mind (i.e. Shinn views things in a certain manner) were let her die or let her live, which would you honestly pick? He thoughts on the matter were damned simple, and you are far out-reaching reality to plaster so I dont have to watch her die onto him. To Shinn, with the type of person he has constantly shown himself to be, it was I cant let her die because Im supposed to protect her and I love her (in whatever fashion floats your boat), the only choice she has is to be treated by the EAF, because they are her only hope of survival. Not I cant watch her die in front of me, I need to risk death from both sides to give her back to the enemy just so Ill feel better about it.

The second line of reasoning is just plain stupid. And its exactly the crap DDBen is touting. Shinn, who is very pig-headed and head strong to boot, is most certainly NOT an idiot. Would he have wasted the time to get Gaias IFF code if he didnt think through the plan to get Stellar to the EAF carefully?

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Jurojin
While that may be true from an outside perspective, thats not is what is in question here. Im defending him in so far as WHY he did what he did, i.e. his rationale, though I do agree that handing her over to the EAF was certain to put her in a position that she was in.

Youre painting him as NOT wanting responsibility for Stellar or her actions. That is simply untrue. People dont risk court martial and execution for not wanting to be responsible in the manner youre saying. He knew that ZAFT was not going to treat her well, and couldnt save her from death due to lack of time for research. He knew what the EAF had done to her and others in the past during the training phases, but that isnt necessarily a reflection of whats going on with her right now. If it were you and the only options in your skewed mind (i.e. Shinn views things in a certain manner) were let her die or let her live, which would you honestly pick? He thoughts on the matter were damned simple, and you are far out-reaching reality to plaster so I dont have to watch her die onto him. To Shinn, with the type of person he has constantly shown himself to be, it was I cant let her die because Im supposed to protect her and I love her (in whatever fashion floats your boat), the only choice she has is to be treated by the EAF, because they are her only hope of survival. Not I cant watch her die in front of me, I need to risk death from both sides to give her back to the enemy just so Ill feel better about it.

The second line of reasoning is just plain stupid. And its exactly the crap DDBen is touting. Shinn, who is very pig-headed and head strong to boot, is most certainly NOT an idiot. Would he have wasted the time to get Gaias IFF code if he didnt think through the plan to get Stellar to the EAF carefully?

First, a carefully thought out plan is not neccesarily a well thought out plan. He obviously didn't plan ahead.

And as for Shinn risking his life... well, he's used to it. He's a pilot. Seriously though, I think this is your best point you've got going for you, because it does make perfect sense. Why would Shinn risk his life, if he didn't genuinely care for Stellar?

The big hole here, unfortunately, is that Shinn is the ZAFT Super Ace. The only operational pilot on Minerva. And he knows Dulindal. You see, he probably also thought, what with him being so arrogant, that he was above reprisal for his actions.

And he was right. So maybe he never did think of it as risking his own life?

[Terracosmo]

"So Terra is this anything like you saying you had to much respect for the writers to believe Neo was Mwu because it was to obvious. Yet now you state that the writers have to spell everything out in minute detail for it to be true."

Idiot. My original belief was that the show was too "advanced" or rather unpredictable for Neo to be Mwu, but since he was it kinda validated what level the show is at. So no, can't say I'm expecting anything less than a simple spelling out of what's gonna happen any longer. And in retrospect, it's been that way since the beginning of Seed. The whole Mwu gig was just a new low for it.

"EDIT: In response to Terra's previous post, I think you are doing a great disservice to the writers by ignoring the sublties they have built into the show."

Ehm, okay, so you're saying that the writers have put in a subtle theme which consists of Shinn really not liking Stellar at all, that only people like you and DDBen can see?
Riiiight...

Also, guys, there's a difference between seeing subtle things and making up total bullshit.
You'd do yourselves many favors by finding it.

[qilinkiddo]

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: qilinkiddo
the only way to prevent stellar from dying is to return stellar back to EAF...
and when you saw your love ones dying...you would not consider what would she do in the future...
the only thing you think off is whether she could stay alive for now

Actually Shinn was mearly hoping by giving Stellar back to Neo that someone else would protect her as he is simply not the kind of guy who protects anything. Unless you can give me a better reason for him giving Neo that shiney thing Stellar gave him. This was a action made by Shinn to forget about Stellar and move on with his revenge. The fact before Stellar was put in Destroy that her memory was not altered and that she was allowed to wear the thingy as a pendant is a really wierd move that Neo made considering it would obviously be capable of downgrading her ability to use destroy VS the Minerva which at the current time is the Flagship of Zaft.

This is the main reason why I have previously stated that Shinn was not trying to protect Stellar with his actions. If Shinn had kept the pendant and recalled that he was fighting so people wouldn't have to suffer like Stellar has.

the revenge you mean is?

the only thing he could only do since he was not medical expert even if he is...ZAFT did not have the technology to prevent stellar from dying...stated by others and the fact that stellar was dying...he could only think of the easiest way out which might let stellar stay alive was to return her to neo...

shinn have feelings for stellar as a big brother/crush...
but i think its rather big brother as when stellar died...the mayu thingy was showed

[MeroTZ]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
"
Ehm, okay, so you're saying that the writers have put in a subtle theme which consists of Shinn really not liking Stellar at all, that only people like you and DDBen can see?
Riiiight...
.

Um, you've totally misquoted me here.

I never said Shinn didn't like Stellar. What I've implied was that he was fixated on her, maybe a bit attached/obsessed with her, and that their relationship really didn't have any depth. (Maybe it did at the lake... Ooh, what a bad pun).

What I said about Shinn handing off Stellar was that Shinn wanted to avoid responsibility.