Episode 32 Discussion "spoilers"

[Everon]

Originally posted by: Def_X
Out of curiosity... I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this or noticed this yet but why does it seem like they are just doing the first season of SEED only from the other angle and new characters? I mean first there is the first fight with orb where Kira shows up right on time to blow up Minerva's bow gun just in time. Then there is the whole let me give back our prisoner against the captain's orders story. Then there is the lets take one government completely out of the running to expose the evil of the other government. In the end the little separate faction of good will prevail. Some elements have changed and new twists are fun. But for the past 30+ eps I've been watching the same anime again.

Hehe I guess the cliche thing to say is "History has a way of repeating itself."

I agree with ya Def_X, I think its common occurance with all production companies. The case could be a simple as the writers that run out of ideas, but in some cases they use similar themes because its a safe way to attract the same audience.

Destiny does have its moments, watching Shinn go beserk for all the wrong reasons and seeing his comrades encourage his behavior has been interesting.

[kinggalaxia]

lol, true, true... but with masamuneehs points, like Kira having double standards, too much power, and never seems to think he's wrong anymore, well....it just seems like he's in a Dubbaya kinda mind state.

Meh, whatever. I think and know Kira is cute..even hot... but I wouldn't fuck em like it sounds like you guys would. Y'all sound like Fllay anymore. "Beat/kill them all (most preferably Shinn)...win...for me.."

[Dannynonsense]

I do acknowledge that Kira fights for what he believes is right. Same goes for ZAFT and EAF and anybody else. Destiny, and the original Seed too, focus alot on how the politicians and radicals manipulate the public and the soldiers to fight for their (the politicians') agenda. One of the best parts of this series is that it acknowledges that there is a line where "the cause" becomes forgotten and victory becomes both the ends and the means.

My problem is when people try to "stop it before everyone forgets why it started." Firstly, what started this war (my speculation here) is 2 crazy bastards, Djibril and Dullindal, taking advantage of peoples' insecurities and differences, rigging a colony drop and responding with impossible demands on PLANT. These are manipulations, inflaming the people and leading them to believe that a vast majority of "The Enemy" are out to kill them, and that they need to strike back. Or that they are superior because "the other side is so barbaric"

So the cause of the war can be debated as not a very good reason to fight.

Why then do I think that Kira is wrong for stopping it?

1. Its the way he goes about it. I admire protecting innocent civilians (from the Destroy) or trying to reveal to a misled army what their old ideals and motives are all about (Orb). But simply going around on a battlefield and disarming everybody, leaving them virtually defenseless is not the way to stop the war. Its like saying, "if we took away all the guns there would be no war!" People will still fight, with swords or sticks or fists, if they believe its worth fighting over. Taking away a person's ability to defend themself on the battlefield, when you're just one guy and one ship is wrong because you can't disarm everyone. When someone dies because he couldn't fight back (Heine) and you were the one that disarmed him, but not the other guy (he did hit Stellar, but she still had an offensive capability) how is that any better than if he had died in normal combat? Its worse!

2. It's his self-righteousness. Ignoring, for a moment, the fact that the war was caused by radicals, that the cause is fueled by propaganda, Kira is basically stopping everyone for fighting for what THEY believe in. Someone fighting to kill all Coordinators or Naturals is bad if they just go about killing indiscriminetley, but what about people fighting to protect their land, or to free prisoners, or just defending themselves after being attacked? Kira doesn't even question or think about why everyone else is fighting. He disrespects what they're fighting for, doesn't even let them do what he's doing...

3. He is missing the real problem. Cutting up everyone's weapons may end this battle, but what about all the other ones being waged around the world? A stalemate caused by Archangel and Freedom in one spot will most likely lead to a larger deployment of troops on both ZAFT and EAF sides to capture it later. He is creating confusion on the battlefield. He does nothing about the Blue Cosmos' propaganda nor ZAFT's false Lacus. He doesn't try to convince anyone to see it his way, he just blows up their rifle and flies off, leaving them pissed as hell and probably more determined than ever to fight next time.

4. He is practicing a double standard. He goes around with one of the most powerful MS ever, making every Zaku and Dagger into sitting ducks. "Just having the strength, or just wanting to do something, alone they are not enough" Wasn't that a theme from the original Seed? He is taking away from others the only means of expression that he employs to make his impact on the world, to further his cause, power. And he is actually showing both sides that they require MORE power if they ever want to achieve their goals. If you can't take down one friggin Gundam, even if it is the best, then obviously you're not going to win the war because he'll keep showing up and disarming everyone! Plus, the EAF Naturals must view Coordinators as even bigger monsters, even worse threats, after fighting Kira.

He had to kill dozens if not hundreds of people, fight dozens of pointless battles, damn near kill his best friend and nearly die before he started to realize his errors and start ot think they way he does now. He won't allow anyone else to repeat those errors, even though they may be necessary to learn about the horrible side of war.

Oh, and he's too fucking invincible out there (except Shinn scratched him once, maybe once, I believe. And Neo did too in Ep. 32) It pisses me off seeing the "hero" so immortal and so proud and self-righteous.

There, that's my rant. Suck it, suck it dry. Bitches.[/quote]


to respond to this crazy long post all i have say is what lacus said first you decide then you see it through all the way

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: kinggalaxia
lol, true, true... but with masamuneehs points, like Kira having double standards, too much power, and never seems to think he's wrong anymore, well....it just seems like he's in a Dubbaya kinda mind state.

Meh, whatever. I think and know Kira is cute..even hot... but I wouldn't fuck em like it sounds like you guys would. Y'all sound like Fllay anymore. "Beat/kill them all (most preferably Shinn)...win...for me.."

Are we watching the same series here!?!?!? Kira as well as everyone on the Arch Angel have spent multiple episodes talking about how they didn't know if they were taking the right actions. All they have done is protect whats important to them while they search to find out which side is really right so they know where to fight.

I simply have not seen at any point this power hungry dictator called Kira who's flying around trying to prove how cool he is. In fact the only one really doing that one is Shinn.

[Motteh]

but in Shinn's case he's just following orders
so you can't actually blame him for shooting down everyone he fights, it's his job

[Dannynonsense]

peoples perception of the arch angel actions are all screwed up its just like DDBen said "Kira as well as everyone on the Arch Angel have spent multiple episodes talking about how they didn't know if they were taking the right actions. All they have done is protect whats important to them while they search to find out which side is really right so they know where to fight." but everyone wants to say something stupid like oooh there ruining the series since there going around getting into all these fights. i think the real reason everyones complaining because nobody likes the main charcter shinn really is a prick at this point in the series by the end lets hope he comes to some form of enlightenment

[Motteh]

i myself find it refreshing to have a main char who's not your stereotypical "good" guy

[DarkSasuke]

Anyone got a clue where can you download destiny from 29-the rest?

[Dannynonsense]

Originally posted by: DarkSasuke
Anyone got a clue where can you download destiny from 29-the rest?

yeeeaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh try here http null

[DarkSasuke]

thx danny

[masamuneehs]

Originally posted by: DDBen

Are we watching the same series here!?!?!? Kira as well as everyone on the Arch Angel have spent multiple episodes talking about how they didn't know if they were taking the right actions. All they have done is protect whats important to them while they search to find out which side is really right so they know where to fight.

I simply have not seen at any point this power hungry dictator called Kira who's flying around trying to prove how cool he is. In fact the only one really doing that one is Shinn.

Mind you, I see what DDBen is getting at about him trying to find out where he should fight. Yes they fight to protect what is important to them, but they are stopping others from doing that very same thing. I never said Kira is power hungry nor trying to prove how cool he is or being like George W Bush. I won't get into politics here... Kira isn't trying to feed his ego either. But he is using his great MS and piloting skills, giving him more than the fair one-person say in things. His influence is strong because of his Seed and his MS, but he denies others the latter and most weren't born with the former.

And, regardless of how much they talk talk talk about "are we doing the right thing?" they keep going about it anyway. Maybe they're on the verge of some much needed character development or revelation about their purpose in the war, but so far they've been doing the same old stuff again and again.

Its not about "why" they're fighting, it's HOW they are fighting, Kira especially, that has people pissed...

Originally posted by: Motteh
i myself find it refreshing to have a main char who's not your stereotypical "good" guy

amen reverend. Noble selfless nice heroes are a dime a dozen in anime. Shinn's rashness, short temper, smugness with his power and impunity for others makes him stand out.

And I know what Lacus said, but that is also the very definition of narrow-mindedness...

[Terracosmo]

Considering how people react towards Shinn, it's not hard to understand why producers stick with the selfless & goodguy heroes... seen from a financial viewpoint, of course.

Myself, I agree that Shinn is a fresh breath of air when it comes to main characters. And I've been saying that since episode 1. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

[Dannynonsense]

shinn isn't a bad character in fact from the first time he appeared with sword impluse i was like yea thats the kind of character we need however in recent episode though he's seems to be growing more arrogant and stupid thats all. and as for the that bs you said "His influence is strong because of his Seed and his MS, but he denies others the latter and most weren't born with the former And, regardless of how much they talk talk talk about "are we doing the right thing?" they keep going about it anyway. Maybe they're on the verge of some much needed character development or revelation about their purpose in the war, but so far they've been doing the same old stuff again and again." because its like watching two people fight over something ridiculous so somebody steps in to intervene when words dont work its up to action which ends up stoping two people from kicking the crap out of each other for no reason sure theres a lot more people involve but if you have the power to do something you should. and dont be punk sitting on the side lines saying it will all work out in the end

[Nai]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
Myself, I agree that Shinn is a fresh breath of air when it comes to main characters.

Completely agreed. I love Shinn due to the fact that he's such very 'human character,' as opposed to Kira, the classical naive to the maximum white knight.

As for the Episode, it sure was some heavy stuff. The scene in the end with Shinn holding Stellar almost made me shed a tear, which I don't do easily. The action was also great, and it simply made me laugh to see Sting getting owned by cannon fodder as he was trying to retreat. Such a sad thing.

[Motteh]

Originally posted by: Nai
[Completely agreed. I love Shinn due to the fact that he's such very 'human character,' as opposed to Kira, the classical naive to the maximum white knight.

well Kira is a knight in shining armor type of guy perhaps but to say he's less "human"
i just like the way Shinn has a very very short fuse
there were some eps in the original Seed where Kira (among others) was like that
i found those eps to be the most satisfying to watch personally

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: masamuneehs
Mind you, I see what DDBen is getting at about him trying to find out where he should fight. Yes they fight to protect what is important to them, but they are stopping others from doing that very same thing. I never said Kira is power hungry nor trying to prove how cool he is or being like George W Bush. I won't get into politics here... Kira isn't trying to feed his ego either. But he is using his great MS and piloting skills, giving him more than the fair one-person say in things. His influence is strong because of his Seed and his MS, but he denies others the latter and most weren't born with the former.

And, regardless of how much they talk talk talk about "are we doing the right thing?" they keep going about it anyway. Maybe they're on the verge of some much needed character development or revelation about their purpose in the war, but so far they've been doing the same old stuff again and again.

Its not about "why" they're fighting, it's HOW they are fighting, Kira especially, that has people pissed...

Well to answer this its pretty simple Lacus said "First you decide then you see it through to the end" This is exactly what Kira and the Archangel have done. First in attempting to prevent the Orb/Minerva battles (who btw had Kira and the ArchAngel not interfered in that one Shinn and company would have already been dead) Then with the Destruction of Destroy.

I'm sorry but I can't think of a single example of the ArchAngel going off the deep end and if Kira really wanted to take neither side and kill everyone he certainly is capable of it and would have had no problem with doing so when the Minerva was so heavily damaged with only Shinn and Neo having working mobile suits left and Shinn no longer being able to fly it wouldn't have been a particularly long battle either.

[multi]

yeah i got say shinn needs to have more respect for athrun. but i can see why he doest cuz of him losing to kira. it looked like athrun and shinn were gonna fight in the next episode, i hope athrun beats the shit out of him or punks shinn bad. And yes shinn is the biggest hyppocrite out there. he gonna talk smack about athrun's bitch. At least she didnt kill millions of people with a trigger. shinn is so naive too, how the hell u gonna trust the enemy and yell at athrun like a lil baby and say he that man promised me. fucken idiot.

[Curium]

Originally posted by: Motteh
i just like the way Shinn has a very very short fuse

That right there is the most basic reason I hate shinn. I hate people like that in real life too, so I guess you could say I'm predispossed to hate him in the first place.

[laxklein]

kira and the archangel were fighting for what they believe is right. they don't take sides. they balance the situation. unlike minerva crew or ZAFT and EAF they are all like a dog. they follow whatever their master's command, they kill because they were asked to do so. the figther''s like shinn, rey or lunamaria - then neo, stellar and others, they fight and kill innocents without hesitation, coz that's the order.

[kinggalaxia]

Interesting....this is the longest topic for an episode discussion, I believe

very much agree with you, Terra. Flawed bastard beats invincible pureheart in my book.

Masa, again, you're right. HOW they're fighting is as counterproductive to ending the war as ZAFT (and Shinn)'s kill-em-all attitude.