Episode 30 Discussion "Spoilers"

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Oakleya
Then maybe you shouldnt make any comment if you dont know what they say.

incase you missed it I still don't disagree with my comment. Shinn does nothing for anyone but himself that fact remains. He didn't want to see her die because to him he couldn't take that happening. However in her case it might be better to let her die instead of returning her to being a weapon who's mind is randomly rewritten. I still hold that he didn't release her to prevent her from dying and only to prevent himself from the guilt of it happening.

Shinn is all about Shinn. He's sarcastic against others because he can't live upto his own statement. He only kills and goes into seed because he can't stand to lose. He doesn't care about the people on the ship only himself in every case. He joined plant for revenge and not to do anything nobel for Plant as he could care less about them as well. The only thing Shinn truely cares about is himself. Yes he promised Stellar he would protect her and his actions were done in order to do so, but in the end who really gains the most out of what he did. All it does for Stellar is make her the same weapon she has always been instead of letting her die and/or become a research subject. Zaft had no intentions of killing her infact they would prefer she stayed alive to study her. The EA is only going to continue to pump her full of drugs and edit her as they see fit. Neo's promise won't be kept as the EA is desprite and would never give up one of there main soldiers capiable of fighting equally with quardinators.

The parts of my statement that were however inacurrate are as follows. Shinn does release her so that she can live and his own ego would certainly make him feel that the deal he made will be honored. So in turn Shinn in his warped little head does believe she won't have to fight anymore. He still does release her only for his personal gain, However not explicitly so he can kill her (though more then likely he will do it anyway.

The meaning is really no differn't just the circumstances the result stays completely the same.

[Terracosmo]

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: Oakleya
Then maybe you shouldnt make any comment if you dont know what they say.

incase you missed it I still don't disagree with my comment. Shinn does nothing for anyone but himself that fact remains. He didn't want to see her die because to him he couldn't take that happening. However in her case it might be better to let her die instead of returning her to being a weapon who's mind is randomly rewritten. I still hold that he didn't release her to prevent her from dying and only to prevent himself from the guilt of it happening.

Okay so why does he treasure the little thing-in-a-bottle Stellar gave him, to laugh at it sadistically?
Jesus Christ, that is so fucking stupid. His main objective being revenge has nothing to do with how much he cares for others, in case you forgot, he went seed the first time because he saw how Minerva was getting raped and he did it to save them all (which he also did). "Without Shinn we would all be dead", the crew even commented afterwards.

You don't understand the character at all.

[DDBen]

[quote]
Originally posted by: Terracosmo

Originally posted by: DDBen

Originally posted by: Oakleya

incase you missed it I still don't disagree with my comment. Shinn does nothing for anyone but himself that fact remains. He didn't want to see her die because to him he couldn't take that happening. However in her case it might be better to let her die instead of returning her to being a weapon who's mind is randomly rewritten. I still hold that he didn't release her to prevent her from dying and only to prevent himself from the guilt of it happening.

Okay so why does he treasure the little thing-in-a-bottle Stellar gave him, to laugh at it sadistically?
Jesus Christ, that is so fucking stupid. His main objective being revenge has nothing to do with how much he cares for others, in case you forgot, he went seed the first time because he saw how Minerva was getting raped and he did it to save them all (which he also did). "Without Shinn we would all be dead", the crew even commented afterwards.

You don't understand the character at all.

Terra because I see things in a differn't perspective then you doesn't mean that I'm incorrect or that I don't understand the characters. In fact it can mean that I understand them better then you do.

That aside why did he treasure the little object (I don't really know what it is either but I'm guessing a piece of seashell or something) because he finally found a girl who would give him the time of day. I'm guessing Shinn doesn't get noticed all that much as he's a complete brat. So basically that resulted in him having a case of puppy love. Still this once again was something that would lead directly to shinn gaining something. He didn't treasure it its not like he kept it on his person at all times to give him strength. All he did was stick it in a jar in his room. Then later he pulled it out to try and get Stellar to remember him. He has arbitrary feeling for her absolutely but nothing more significant then a crush. As for him turning seed to save the Minerva he did it infact to save himself because he couldn't stand losing. Orb had once again screwed him over and the EA was trying to kill him. Yes he did save the ship but without a ship he would be dead and unable to get his revenge. Of course those on the Minerva stated without Shinn we would be dead and thats absolutely true, but Shinn in no way did that to specifically save them.

Note in direct contradiction to this. Kira when he released Lacus it was because she was a civillian who he cared about and who happened to be his best friends fiance. He didn't want her to be used as a shield in a war. This wasn't some enemy pilot it was a random pop idol. In addition to that Kira was only on the Arch-Angel in order to protect his friends at first and eventually it was because he wanted to protect more people.

Kira has always been designed as a protector. Shinn on the other hand is designed as a Avenger in turn he wants to kill everyone he can. The matter with Shinn and Stellar was Shinn finding something he wanted to protect. However his actions were for himself in the end as it was something that he did that would in turn get more people killed and he knew that.

[masamuneehs]

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
I love Shinn, he's so fucking cynical. I laughed when he said "I can't believe someone like Athrun became FAITH with such skills" (something like that). So raw. I love it.

Also very touching episode, Rey helping Shinn proves that they are good friends... also lots of crying going on in the beginning and the end, both dramatic moments (which I also love). Seeing Sting alone in the "recharge chamber" also looked pretty odd. I hope they don't erase Auel's memory, I'd like for Sting to miss him or something... or at least comment on it.

Neo. "If we start wondering why we fight it'll be the end for people like us." ... leads me to believe that he's an extended. Teehee.

There is also no way in hell he'll keep that promise.

I also believe Shinn is a nice change from the self-righteous Kira, the confused Athrun, and the "we'll die if we start thinking about why we're fighting" Neo. He's perfect middle ground and probably the most believable character out there. (Well Athrun's confusion is a very believable, normal trait, but its sort of annoying)
Honestly, can anyone in the heat of battle aim for the head and weapons like Kira and not fear for his own life, focusing so much on saving other people and still protecting his own neck?

Rey is one of my favorite characters and this episode proved he isn't just some cold stiff. His face when the elevator doors closed was so eerily similair to Dullindal's. I mean, I know they're related, but I've never seen them look so much alike!

Neo won't keep his promise, naturally. How Shinn believed a guy wearing a freaking mask is beyond me! You have to be retarded, if you care so much about Stellar, to trust a guy without even looking him in the eyes! Wonder if Shinn, if he thought Neo would put her into an MS again (which he will), and if he thought ZAFT would just use her as a guinea pig, would just think it best to take her life himself? (or run away with her!)

i liked this episode alot because it showed a lot of the development in the major characters

[masamuneehs]

and as for all the dumb-ass fighting over opinions and such. take a chill pill. everyone's entitled to believe whatever they want to believe. (and if you happen to know more because you've gotten some sneak peaks at future plot events, you can't hold that against someone who has just been watching the fansubs or RAWs)

Everyone understands and views characters in their own way. That's why you can enjoy the show!

And i disagree with people's sentiments about Shinn's motives for freeing Stellar. I don't think he knew for sure whether this action would get people killed or not (he left late at night when, granted the Minerva was defenseless, was also after a major battle where the enemy was almost annihilated, still left Minerva at risk) I think he was an idiot for trusting Neo, but he did. Or he still felt that Stellar, having so much trust in Neo, would want it this way also and Shinn didn't trust Neo but couldn't do anything else...

to say this was a selfish action is ....well this is my opinion... slightly absurd.

He violated military protocol, got one of his friends implicated in the treasonous act, attacked med staff... he would probably face a court martial in US military (dishonorable discharge) and i dont think his punishment will be that stiff (because he's the only MS pilot capable of defending them) but he ran a huge risk for no apparant reason other than to help Stellar. That's selfish?

i also agree with the monkeyman (about this being the event that changes Shinn, HUGE HUGE difference between him now and at start of show) thanks Monkey!

[monkeyman]

I'm not 100% sure but i thought the first time Shin went into seed mode wasn't because minerva was getting slaughtered but because he was angry at orbs actions. I haven't seen that episode in a while though so i could be wrong. And Shin does do everything for himself until he met Stellar. I think she's supose to be the thing that changes him from a selfish spoiled brat into a decent main charecter

P.S. your right masamuneehs but i just had to say my opinion ^^

[Terracosmo]

DDBen, you can have any opinion about Shinn that you feel like; I don't care.
However: saying that Shinn sent Stellar away just to avoid "guilt" is WRONG. That has nothing to do with opinions. It's just you being wrong. Nothing more nothing less.

[Mut]

DDBen is on crack.

Shinn is selfish. Whatever. But he did do everyting he can to protect Stellar. The reason why he returned Stellar to Neo is because 1. he heard that they were going to turn her into a test object (we all know what scientists do to test objects), and 2. she was suffering anyway because they didn't have the proper 'fix' for her. So he saw that the best way of ending her suffering was handing her over to Neo. He handed her over to Neo because he truly believes that Neo will keep his promise (I hope he does too) and that way, Stellar will be protected. It's unreasonable to think that he did it knowing that she'll fight again and he will eventually kill her (which is the opposite of what he wants to do). Shinn may be a punk ass brat, but he isn't a fucking psycho.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
DDBen is on crack.

Shinn is selfish. Whatever. But he did do everyting he can to protect Stellar. The reason why he returned Stellar to Neo is because 1. he heard that they were going to turn her into a test object (we all know what scientists do to test objects), and 2. she was suffering anyway because they didn't have the proper 'fix' for her. So he saw that the best way of ending her suffering was handing her over to Neo. He handed her over to Neo because he truly believes that Neo will keep his promise (I hope he does too) and that way, Stellar will be protected. It's unreasonable to think that he did it knowing that she'll fight again and he will eventually kill her (which is the opposite of what he wants to do). Shinn may be a punk ass brat, but he isn't a fucking psycho.

Mut@t@ I suggest you reread my post about what was and wasn't wrong about my orignal statement which I made after watching only the raw. If you do you will notice this line.

"He still does release her only for his personal gain, However not explicitly so he can kill her (though more then likely he will do it anyway)."

The fact is he does not do it because he wants to kill her I'm just stating that he will likely end up in a position to do so reguardless of what he wants. In fact everything you just stated I already agreed with. However I feel he is driven by the guilt of letting her die instead of the noble concept of protecting her. Somewhere in his mind I'm sure he feels he is protecting her with what he's doing and in fact its about as much as he can do without explicitly shooting her in the head or breaking into the EA vessel and gaining the data to keep her alive. However if he had that data she would still be kept as a research subject in the long run. Basically the only actual way he could protect her is to steal said data figure out how to make whatever her body needs to function and go live somewhere in the country where no one can find them.

What Shinn in fact managed to do was give the enemy back a Elite pilot. To me this isn't protecting her it is instead simply doing what he is willing to do in order to feel better about the situation. Also if he truely wanted to protect her with no reguard to himself he would have gone with her over to the EA ship to make sure Neo kept his promise. However in doing that he can no longer attempt to avenge his family who died due to the EA's intervention and actually they were killed by a earlier group of extended.

In the end Shinn did not protect her he simply sent her away to where he figured she might be safer and not have to fight. When Shinn actually steps up and does all he can I'll believe he changed currently he's still making excuses and setting up other people to blame for his own failure. In this instance he's setting up Neo as the person to blame if Stellar is forced to fight again.

[Mut]

Originally posted by: DDBen
What Shinn in fact managed to do was give the enemy back a Elite pilot. To me this isn't protecting her it is instead simply doing what he is willing to do in order to feel better about the situation. Also if he truely wanted to protect her with no reguard to himself he would have gone with her over to the EA ship to make sure Neo kept his promise. However in doing that he can no longer attempt to avenge his family who died due to the EA's intervention and actually they were killed by a earlier group of extended.

This is crazy. You're making it sound like Shinn handed Stellar over to Neo to make himself feel better. He did what he could have. Him going over to Neo's ship would've been a horrible decision considering... THEY ARE ENEMIES.

In the end Shinn did not protect her he simply sent her away to where he figured she might be safer and not have to fight. When Shinn actually steps up and does all he can I'll believe he changed currently he's still making excuses and setting up other people to blame for his own failure. In this instance he's setting up Neo as the person to blame if Stellar is forced to fight again.

You can't blame him for having trust in Neo. Shinn is just a kid, he's an idiot. But he is doing what he thinks is best for the situation and especially to protect Stellar.

I don't like Shinn cuz he is a brat, but you're trying to make Shinn out to be the most selfish person ever, which is completely untrue.

[Terracosmo]

But lol,

if he went with Stellar to the EA base he would...

1) abandon all his friends (and the promise with Rey would be broken)
2) DIE

That just makes no sense. He wants to help Stellar out no matter what but there must be limits.
"Setting up Neo" ????? I am betting he actually WANTS to trust Neo since he has you know... NO OTHER CHOICE THAN TO DO SO...?

You seriously need to contain your obvious hatred for Shinn and stop making up such ridiculous theories.

Edit: Also, what Mut said (even though it was roughly the same thing... hoho)

[Shadowthor]

Just to let you all know, GSD Eps 30 is out by Tori Tori and Haro Haro. The Link is http://www.point-blank.cc:6969/ or http://www.point-blank.cc:6969/index.html . Its on the front page.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: Mut@t@
This is crazy. You're making it sound like Shinn handed Stellar over to Neo to make himself feel better. He did what he could have. Him going over to Neo's ship would've been a horrible decision considering... THEY ARE ENEMIES.

You can't blame him for having trust in Neo. Shinn is just a kid, he's an idiot. But he is doing what he thinks is best for the situation and especially to protect Stellar.

I don't like Shinn cuz he is a brat, but you're trying to make Shinn out to be the most selfish person ever, which is completely untrue.

Actually Mut@t@ thats exactly what I said Shinn handed over Stellar to Neo so he would feel better that is 100% what I am saying.

Originally posted by: Terracosmo
But lol,

if he went with Stellar to the EA base he would...

1) abandon all his friends (and the promise with Rey would be broken)
2) DIE

That just makes no sense. He wants to help Stellar out no matter what but there must be limits.
"Setting up Neo" ????? I am betting he actually WANTS to trust Neo since he has you know... NO OTHER CHOICE THAN TO DO SO...?

You seriously need to contain your obvious hatred for Shinn and stop making up such ridiculous theories.

Edit: Also, what Mut said (even though it was roughly the same thing... hoho)

As a matter of fact to Terra and Mut@t@ I agree he would abandon his shipmates however I really don't see Shinn's relationship with everyone as true friendship more of a means to an end for his revenge. Also I do agree it would be almost certain death to go over to the EA ship to attempt to protect Stellar however it would be a selfless act instead of a selfish one. That basically makes out everything I have stated. Shinn took the easy way out instead of actually protecting her he left her to Neo so that he could do so. If Neo does not protect her who does Shinn blame? The answer is obviously not himself he blames Neo and in turn by handing her over to Neo in such a fashion requesting a promise that rationally Neo could not keep is simply a way to avoid guilt on himself when what he knows will happen will.

I agree Shinn is just a kid and more then likely does not have the kind of adult reasoning I'm using on the situation. That is exactly why I don't believe Shinn has yet to grow in the slightest and will not until he accepts responsability for his own actions. Heck Shinn made matters WORSE during the last battle and then attacked Athrun who was the only reason shinn didn't have himself shot down and more then likely killed in that battle. Shinn mearly uses everyone else as a excuse while not taking responsability for any failures why he takes credit for any success he had.

I also don't believe anyone can argue that Kira wouldn't have slaughtered Shinn had Athrun not taken one for the team defending him.

[Kovash]

This is my take on the subject;

Shinn originally feels pity for Stellar because he thinks she was a child who's family was destroyed by war (her rantings about death being bad summerised this, PLUS what he told Athrun afterwards) then those feelings compound when he finds out that she's a drugged up tool for the emeny with no choice but to fight where she probably doesn't want to.

I highly doubt that Shinn expects Neo to keep his promise, that's why he gave Stellar that pink thing back - remember his line as he hands it to her; "Don't forget, Stellar. Don't forget me."

He knows that the Extended can have their memory wiped and that it's possible Neo will do that and put her in a suit anyway, but he had no choice and so does whatever he could to ensure that she would, atleast fight back.

As for him killing her - the painful look on his face when he asks Neo to "keep her away from dangerous things like Mobile Suits, or anything than can bring her to harm" shows that he knows he might end up fighting her, and he doesn't want that.

Shinn is a selfish brat motivated by revenge, but he's capable of compassion and he's not the blitghering idiot people make him out to be. Well, that's my opinion anyway.

[monkeyman]

All I'm going to say is i still think Stellar is what started to change him. And i hope that the change keeps up.

[naruto22]

Well, I was about to post my share of Shin bashing but I think my thoughts more or less mirror DDBEN.

I will give Shinn the chance of redeeming himself though. At the moment, the only possible avenue I see that happening is through Stellar. Whether it will be her Death that will be the catalyst or something else happening between the two is yet to be seen.

Remember, during Gundam Seed, we probably thought it was the end of the friendship between Kira and Asuran when Kira killed Nicol (Blitz pilot.) And then came the titanic fight when Asuran killed Tolle and the two practically went berserk on each other. In the end, when they were both calm and quiet, they knew they were wrong in doing so, and so took another path so that they won't have to fight another again: by not taking sides in an unjust war.

A similar thing might happen in Destiny. How I am not sure, but as we all speculate, Stellar will probably be mindwipped and put in a Mobile Suit again and the two will battle once again.

Situation A: ideal situation
Shinn fights Stellar and somehow finds out shes in the suit but she has no memories of him. The two fight and somehow, both manage to destroy each other's suit. Shinn gets rescued by Archangel of all things and then maybe Kira can undo the rage. Crew of Archangel, who probably doing quite a bit of intelligence gathering, will rescue Stellar as well from EA clutches. Shinn breaks down on seeing Stellar again, then will mellow somewhat and start listening to other people for once/

Situation B: ideal situation for Shinn haters
Shinn DEFIINITELY KILLS Stellar, goes psycho, kills everything in sight, then gets sliced and diced by Kira, who will put him in a straight jacket and lock up in the Archangel so that he can be the star of the show again. [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]

Anyway, my point, for Shinn lovers, you all may be right that Stellar is Shinn's best chance for redemption. Otherwise, I agree that Shinn is a selfish spoilt brat that makes even Frey Alster look like Mother Teressa in comparison.

[DDBen]

Originally posted by: naruto22
Situation A: ideal situation
Shinn fights Stellar and somehow finds out shes in the suit but she has no memories of him. The two fight and somehow, both manage to destroy each other's suit. Shinn gets rescued by Archangel of all things and then maybe Kira can undo the rage. Crew of Archangel, who probably doing quite a bit of intelligence gathering, will rescue Stellar as well from EA clutches. Shinn breaks down on seeing Stellar again, then will mellow somewhat and start listening to other people for once/

Anyway, my point, for Shinn lovers, you all may be right that Stellar is Shinn's best chance for redemption. Otherwise, I agree that Shinn is a selfish spoilt brat that makes even Frey Alster look like Mother Teressa in comparison.

Well said and I do believe situation A will happen however I believe its more likely that Stellar will destroy the impulse once and for all and in turn Shinn will be rescued by the Archangel and then likely break down. At that point I expect him to beg the Archangel for help in rescuing Stellar. He could also be transported to the Archangel by Athrun as I believe atleast Athrun, Lunimaria and Shinn will eventually defect.

Remember that Lunimaria knows about whats going on with Lacus as does Athrun and that the only people who would try to save a EA pilot are those of the Archangel.

I don't think that Shinn is unredeamable I only believe at this point he hasn't changed he simply continues to act selfish and by giving Stellat the thingy he ment to leave her in the past and forget about her having convinced himself he did what he could. She is definatly the plot device made to change him and as in Seed they used Fllay's death to ultimately change Kira to who he is now. I simply believe they will take the other route in Gundam Seed Destiny and Shinn doing a selfless act in which he saves Stellar will be how they solidify Shinn's personal redemption.

[Aramis]

Shinn was right to scold Athrun, all he did in the battle was fly around in travel form and taunt the enemy with his radio only to get a "shut up and die" kind of reaction from them. well, he fired a few shots here and there.
if you join the military during war you do so to fight, thats it. athrun is the loser here...
as for shinn and rey, they'll probably be punished big time for this. they assaulted the crew and released an important prisoner. the chairman is probably gonna excuse them or they'll never launch from that ship again.

[naruto22]

Originally posted by: Aramis
Shinn was right to scold Athrun, all he did in the battle was fly around in travel form and taunt the enemy with his radio only to get a "shut up and die" kind of reaction from them. well, he fired a few shots here and there.
if you join the military during war you do so to fight, thats it. athrun is the loser here...
as for shinn and rey, they'll probably be punished big time for this. they assaulted the crew and released an important prisoner. the chairman is probably gonna excuse them or they'll never launch from that ship again.

Well, Asuran bashing can come later. As much as we all may despise Asuran for being a spineless coward who can't defend his fiancee, I think we can all agree that Shinn is ten times worse. More so because he is so volatile in temper, it can be said his state of mind is even more unstable than Kira during his time on Strike. And this time, he has no pink haired princess to save his ravaged mind. Then again, he didn't have a red haired B***ch screwing his body and mind as well.

Sigh, Asuran and Cagalli kinda got the sad treatment of being degraded into characters who can't stand up for their beliefs. And by right, they should have been better after emerging from the last war relatively unscathed and still have friends who are alive and able to live with them. Instead, both of them have been reduced to whinny kids.

Strange how the seats have turned. Now its Kira who is the most confident character who has his heart in the right place whereas last time, he was a civilian who was about to be torn apart by the dogs of war. And Asuran, who was a confident member of the elite ZAFT military, the Reds, hasn't even been able to do anything damaging to the enemy. And I'm talking about ORB, I'm talking against the EA and Chaos. Bloody hell, all he and Chaos does is shoot each other. In the end, because of his indecisiveness, he lost a valuable piece of Gundam, which was in my humble opinion, the coolest Gundam in Destiny, even surpassing Freedom IMHO.

Ah well, I hope we get Cagalli and Asuran to develop more of their characters since they have been pushed back to square one. And as much as I hate to see Shinn, I'm interested to see how he turns out in the end.

Never forget, the one consistency of all GUNDAM series is to show the audience the horrors of war. I doubt GSD will end in the complete destruction of Earth and Plant. Hell, even Star Wars 3: Revenge of the Sith didn't end all that sad......... OK, pay no attention to the guy who just watched Star Wars 3.

[PSJ]

this episode was quite good, some character development for shinn, which has been lacking a bit recently. and i have to disagree with DDbens opinion, im agreeing more with terra and mutata on this one. tho shinn is a bit selfish, he is not a complete selfish asshole who is more evil than anyone seen before and just does everything for himself. you could smell the shinn hate in DDbens posts. however in terras there were a faint smell of shinn liking.