Sasuke will get spanked even in lvl 2.

K, even though Sasuke is all looks now with his new lvl 2 technique he's still going to get smacked by Itachi. Yes, ill give him props for being strong and maybe he'll be able to take out Naruto but he wont be able to take Itachi. check.

Choji, Neji and the rest took care of the sound nins when they were in lvl 2, obviously Itachi is stronger then the rescue group, meaning he could take out the sound nins if they were in lvl 2. Thus, he could still take down Sasuke. Maybe Sasuke is stronger then the other sound nins when their in lvl 2, but that's just a statement, we won't see for sure.

i say in order for Sasuke to take care of Itachi he has to be at Jiraiya's level of skills and brains. and i still hope he gets wipped by his brother [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

meh.

this is just my 200 dollars. (economy's a b!tch [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img] )

Sasuke with lvl 2 is still not even comparable to Itachi, because Oro himself said Itachi is stronger then himself. Sasuke gains power from cursed seal but only to a certain amount, which doesn't exceed Oro's power. If Oro can't beat Itachi, no matter how much power Sasuke gains from Oro, Sasuke can't beat Itachi. Also Sasuke in level 2 may not be able to whoop Naruto either. If Naruto uses Kyuubi Chakra, or summons gama bunta, and rasengan stuff, im sure the best Sasuke could do is tie with Naruto.

true, Sasuke is stupid the only way to get a actually strong is to train.

Sasuke needs to fully master his Sharingan and train a shitload, before he can dream of competing with Itachi.

master of the obvious [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

Can't you just close your eyes completely and just try to "sense" his chakra? To defeat Itachi I mean.
Unless...they can't "sense" chakra. I can't remember now.

they can feel chakra not sense it

I'd like to see Sasuke fight Oro, while lvl 2. Just to see what happens.

no matter how much Sasuke would seem to be winning i doubt that he could actually harm Oro.

so far the only person to actually hurt Oro physically has been Tsunade, and even then it was meant to be a blow that would kill him and he didnt seem too phased by it.

Eh?? comon, Itachi has always been stronger then him and prolly always will until sasuke has mastered the sharingan and earned some skillz... nothing much to discuss

Sasuke was owned by Sakon at the normal state.
if both of them will have the same lvl 2 seal, then it means Sasuke is still weaker than sakon.
Sakon is barely above kiba (being hurt by dog boy? what the hell happened?), so Sasuke lvl 2 should stand no chance against Itachi...

and just to be nostalgic, here's a DBZ inspired dialouge

"It's the seal! a level 2 seal! you're chances are winning are dropping faster than this rock!"

"level 2? maybe if it was level twenty you'll have a hope of winning, but two? i don't even feel it"

"it can't be! you're bluffing!"

"maybe i am, hard to tell"

and then Itachi will kick Sasuke's lame ass like Vegita kicked dweeb-weeb around...

Sasuke will get spanked even in lvl 2.
By Itachi
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Umm yes no doubts about that.
Thanks to Captain Obvious for coming to the rescue.

Ah..Oro could read two porn mags and still beat Sasuke(yes,that beats Kakashi's one mag trick).

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Originally posted by: Hotsuma
I'd like to see Sasuke fight Oro, while lvl 2. Just to see what happens.

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The level 2 Seal is from Oro, which means that the power given to him from the cursed seal is definately no where close to Oro's real power. If the cursed seal was that powerful, why doesn't Oro give himself one, because it's only a part of his power he gives away with the cursed seal. Even if Sasuke was in level 2, he would have no chance against Oro, as the cursed seal cannot give more power then the original giver of the seal. So the only way for Sasuke to ever hope to defeat Oro would be to train.

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Originally posted by: Xceleration

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Originally posted by: Hotsuma
I'd like to see Sasuke fight Oro, while lvl 2. Just to see what happens.

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The level 2 Seal is from Oro, which means that the power given to him from the cursed seal is definately no where close to Oro's real power. If the cursed seal was that powerful, why doesn't Oro give himself one, because it's only a part of his power he gives away with the cursed seal. Even if Sasuke was in level 2, he would have no chance against Oro, as the cursed seal cannot give more power then the original giver of the seal. So the only way for Sasuke to ever hope to defeat Oro would be to train.

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OMG when have they said that he cant become stronger than the one who gave it to him. thats the stupidest thing ive heard. by that logic, because naruto is training under jiriaya he cant get stronger than him and therefore the same could be said for the fourth and we know thats bs....the cursed seal is given by oro and extracts power...it can extract enough power out of sasuke so he could beat oro *posssibly* OK

Sasuke has sold his soul to be strong enough to kill his brother, which may not even happen.
Like some characters claim, there is no shortcut to power.

Sasuke, consumed by his rage, has lost his humanity, loyalty, and morality.

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Originally posted by: CapsuleCorpJX
Sasuke has sold his soul to be strong enough to kill his brother, which may not even happen.
Like some characters claim, there is no shortcut to power.

Sasuke, consumed by his rage, has lost his humanity, loyalty, and morality.

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He tried to kill Naruto, for no good reason whatsoever. Kakashi should have killed him on the spot, not wasting time with bs. The 3rd lived to regret not having killed Oro.
Sasuke is a liability to Konoha, especially in a time like this. I still think Tsunade should have sent a huntin-nin instead of all those nice Genins....then again, he is a main character and blah, blah, blah.
Sasuke no kubi in a silver plate, I says.

This is a given, since Kakashi said that the seal will inhibit Sasuke's growth, instead of helping Sasuke grow.

there is no way konoha would want sasuke dead. sasuke is konoha's best and first option for a counter against someone strong as itachi. and besides, sasuke is the last konoha uchiha around, they wouldn't want to make such a powerful clan in konoha to go extinct.

To be safe? I'd kill em all. All....two of them...

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Originally posted by: dazzz
there is no way konoha would want sasuke dead. sasuke is konoha's best and first option for a counter against someone strong as itachi. and besides, sasuke is the last konoha uchiha around, they wouldn't want to make such a powerful clan in konoha to go extinct.

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He may be the one to have the best chance of beating Itachi eventually but he isnt the best hope for Konohas future cause there a character called Naruto who are at least better than Sasuke now cause he trains hard rather than realying somebody to make him magicly stronger[img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-wink.gif[/img]

he also relies on kyubi chakra. =O

Naruto may rely on the Kyuubi Chakra, but it's really not that unfair. The difference between the Kyuubi Chakra and Sasuke's cursed seal is that Sasuke did no work to get it's power (oh look, I got bit by a snake-guy) wheras NAruto, until his failed fight with Kimimaro, could only access the Kyuubi chakra when he or his friends were in serious trouble. It only became easy for him after the Gamabunta summoning because he actually knew what it felt like to call on the chakra.

Complaining about Naruto using the Kyuubi Chakra is like complaining about Sasuke using the Sharingan. Both characters went through alot to get that ability. Remember, SAsuke didn't call forth the Sharingan at all until the Haku fight when he started figuring out the timeing to Haku's attacks slowly but surely. Therefore, you're not really justified in doing either; both earned the right to use that ability, even though they technically had it from birth.

However, the curse seal is a different case. It's essentially something for nothing.

Unlike Kyubi Chakra the cursed seal is more trouble than it's worth sometimes.

It causes severe pain and exhaustion and a loss of control for the user.

Until his defeat at the hands of the sound 4 Sasuke didn't want to activate the cursed seal.

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
he also relies on kyubi chakra. =O

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Naruto is stronger than before even when he is not using Kyubi cause he has devolped. For example Naruto beat Kabuto without Kyubi while Sasuke wouldn't have a chance agianst Kabuto.

One of there reasons that Sasuke is running to Oro is that he cant deal with that Naruto who was weaker than Sasuke in the biginining can eat Sasuke alive even if he is in Lv2.

Good point.

Sasuke isn't Konoha's best defense against Itachi. Itachi isn't on a pedestal in my book, so I say that someone like Gai could probably take out Itachi. Gai knows hot to fight the sharingan. None of the jounins fear Itachi, they'll fight, anytime anywhere. I believe that Byakugen is more powerful than Sharingan. Especially since it's eye of insight is better than Sharingans. So someone like Hiashi or Neji (as he gets more developed) can take out Itachi. Konoha is strong with or without Uchiha. Uchiha just adds diversity.

*If* Sasuke manages to get *real* strong* and I mean like at least a hundred times he is now, level 2 notwithstanding, he will become another Gaara. Insane, amoral and dangerous to his own village. And nobody there will be able to kill him. Fortunatelly, he's too lazy and too full of crap to train and get actually strong.

Sasuke is now going down by the path Itachi went through, it'll probably become more clear once we learn a bit more about Itachi's reason for killing his clan. and after that point, Sasuke might have a change of heart and go Kakashi-like...

Naruto also didn't work that hard for the Kyubi power, he just fell off a clip and then magically gained control over it (there was no step by step learning in it, it was a sudden realization of the power). Sasuke also hadn't work hard, by neither did he get it as a present, nine of every ten die from this "present", and only those with enough will and ambition can wake up from the shock...

don't forget that the curse seal uses your life energy, so it eats you away...

There ARE shortcuts to power, only after the intial power boost, you'll stop growing stronger.

Curse seal consume the body to produce chakra, there's nothing "orochimaru" about it. What I meant is the the curse seal is not something that's part of Orochimaru. Sasuke is burning his body using the curse seal; Orochimaru give him the door to power, not the power itself.

Gai best Itachi? Please, what if they fight someplace that doesn't not have water to reflect? What then? Besides, staring down at someone's feet instead of focusing entire on Itachi already give Gai a disadvantage.

Sasuke lv 2 just give him raw power, not skill, not experience, look at Naruto, tons of raw power at his disposal and still got whoop.

End of story.

i dont get why a topic is made for something obvious.. i mean if a person cant see this they would be stupid. however its more interesting to dicuss naruto vs. sasuke. i believe naruto will beat sasuke or in the worst case we will have a draw. naruto got the stronger attacks, he got gamabunta and all other toad summons, he got the rasengan, he got kage bunshin and street fight looking taijutsu thats powered up by kyubi chakra and of course the unlimited power of the kyubi itsself. lets see what sasuke has. chidori, sharingan and only 2 dots not even a complete! he got curse seal 2 now, he got lee's taijutsu moves and a whole lot of arrogance. this would end in a naruto victory if he plays his cards right.

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Originally posted by: Death BOO Z

Naruto also didn't work that hard for the Kyubi power, he just fell off a clip and then magically gained control over it (there was no step by step learning in it, it was a sudden realization of the power). Sasuke also hadn't work hard, by neither did he get it as a present, nine of every ten die from this "present", and only those with enough will and ambition can wake up from the shock...

don't forget that the curse seal uses your life energy, so it eats you away...

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I will have to disagree. Even if we assume that he didn't train as hard as Lee, which we will never know, you have to consider that he spent his entire childhood being scorned and despised, and he didn't even know why. He could easily turned out into a resentful revengeful ass, just like Sasuke. I don't want to compare the two problematic childhoods, but obviously, Sasuke was never mistread as Naruto was, and he got to know his parents, who apparently loved him.
Second, going deep down and facing the monster who lives inside of you, it's not exactly *easy*. Had Sasuke faced *his* internal demons, one can assume he wouldn't be such a jerk.
Finally, taming the Kyuubi wasn't all. Right after spending the incredibly amount of chacra needed just to summon Gama-Bunta, he had to spent a whole day on the back of that obnoxious toad, and since we're comparing Naruto and Sasuke, I wonder how long he I'd have lasted there.
For what I see, Sasuke lives a lot on the glory of being a Uchiha, the *oh poor kid who had all his family killed* and his bishouneness...
IMO, some people are entitled to be arrogant, but it's not the case of Sasuke. I am yet to see him doing anything *really* strong. If I am too choose between two arrogant jerks, I will go with Neji, he got his ass kicked by Naruto and apparently, learned with that, for one...

i'd have just as much pride and be just as arrogant as sasuke if i were one of the only two surviving members of a very powerful clan. and i'm a super genius too.

Sasuke is arrogant because for the most part he is able to back it up the only time he hasn't when it was expected (lee) Naruto checked him just like Sasuke did constantly at the beginning of the series.

And i'm of the opinion that someone who loses something tragically is worse can end up thinking very differently than someone who never had it the fact that it was someone he idolized who did it made it worse.

Sasuke's demon is Itachi and it's not something he's going to forget about his life's work is to kill him. He'll mellow out once one of them is dead or unable to fight.

Then, you'd be as annoying as him...
Hinata comes from an even more powerful clan as Sasuke, and is able to recognize Naruto. Independent of your opinion about her, here is somebody way entitled to be arrogant. She could say, I am weak, but so what? I am a Hyuuga and therefore I can treat the rest of the world like crap. And she is not weak... She *was* able to hit Neji. She was able to make him back up, using only her own power... Naruto wasn't able to even put a scratch on Neji, before he used the Kyuubi chacra...
Real strong people don't need to be arrogant... It's way obvious that Neji feels inferior, since he belongs to the branch family, he know that no matter how strong he gets, he will never be number one... And, I'd say, that's the same reason, Sasuke is that way, he feels that he's inferior to his brother.
The difference, is that Naruto showed Neji that it's more important to be really strong, than to be the number one, and from that point on, Neji started to change his atittude. Sasuke, on the other hand, instead of learning with his defeats, becomes more stupid, obsessed *and* arrogant, every time he gets his ass kicked...
I mean, kicking Shukaku's ass may look good... but it came at what price? Having to spend your whole life with a monster inside your stomach, and be treated as one by the rest of the village?
All in all, arrogance is not what makes one change one's destiny. And, I'd say, if one of the points of this story is to figure out what takes to change one's destiny, Sasuke is far from that insight. If he keeps up like that, he may even make his brother suffer a painful and horrible death. But, he will end up losing his soul, and at best, realize that he's no better than his brother. IMO, Strenght amounts in a bit more than brute force... then again, maybe the discussion now is only about that...
So far, the only anime character whose arrogance doesn't bother me is Sesshomaru. He more than compensates it with his class. And Sasuke's class is highly questionable...

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Originally posted by: Mut@t@
i'd have just as much pride and be just as arrogant as sasuke if i were one of the only two surviving members of a very powerful clan. and i'm a super genius too.

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I just want to say that the only reason the Sasuke survived was becuase someone took pity of him and didn't kill him ... some great survivor, he didn't even try to hide, he just pissed his pants in a "Shinji Ikari" way...

and Sasuke isn't a SUPER genious, i'll give him genious at best, even Shikamaru (who said he looked up to Sasuke) believed that his team could beat Sasuke's team. People call Sasuke a genious just to satisfy Sasuke's fangirls and super ago (as in a super big ago, not the super ago of society's do and don't do), what has sasuke done to earn him the title of a genious? the Katon jutsu is nice, but it's hardly that great compared to other jutsus, such as Shino's bug techniques, or Kiba's dog attacks. (i'm talking about the beginning of the series, not about the current release)

moving on to Neji-Aniki-sama:
A. Naruto didn't train as hard as Lee, (see one of the first chapters, iruka says the he isn't the most hard worker guy), but he did train more than Sasuke (and Naruto believes in training to get results, while Sasuke believes in birthright).
B. Naruto couldn't turn out to be like Sasuke, Naruto's mirror image is Gaara, Sasuke's two representatives are Kakashi and Itachi.
C. Sasuke also faced his inner demons, that's how he got up from the curse seal at the first time.
D. I have to agree, Sasuke's Flashbacks are as one dimensoinal as Sakura's, "my brother killed my family, i'm so sad!", it's all he ever says...
E. I agree on this one too, Neji makes a better arragont jerk than Sasuke, he also has a deeper story to back it up.

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Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
even Shikamaru (who said he looked up to Sasuke) believed that his team could beat Sasuke's team.

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This was only because they totally underestimated Naruto who they believed to be a complete no-talent clown. They always respected Sasuke's skills.

In regards to Naruto vs. Sasuke:
I don't know why people keep using "summoning Gammabunta" as one of Naruto's advantages. We all know how arrogant and fussy the toad is; if Naruto summoned him to fight Sasuke, there's NO WAY he'd fight for him, he'd just say "this isn't worth my time" and disappear. So we can totally disregard the toad in this hypothetical battle.

Everything else considered, I'd have to compare the potential battle of Naruto vs. Sasuke to the recent battle of Naruto vs. Kimimaro, considering that Kim and Sasuke are supposed to be pretty even. If it was Naruto vs. Sasuke, the battle would go a similar way: Naruto would go into Kyuubi mode, unleash a heap of clones, and Sasuke would deal with them all easily just like Kim did. Then the seal would be unleashed and it would be suped-up rasengan vs. suped-up chidori. Hard to tell who would win though.

Who cares about Sasuke's arrogance. That's part of his personality as a character. Some like it and some don't. Back on topic, Sasuke of course has no chance against Itachi even in lvl 2, but I think he should be able to beat Naruto. Naruto has been winning a little too much, just like Sasuke had been in the beginning of the anime, I think Sasuke winning would make things better. I'm not much of a fan of Sasuke, but you guys don't seem to realize that Naruto is arrogant as well. He talks shit all the time and is disrespectful a lot, but because he's a main character people don't seem to care and just say he's joking so it's not actually arrogant.

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Originally posted by: Death BOO Z

moving on to Neji-Aniki-sama:
A. Naruto didn't train as hard as Lee, (see one of the first chapters, iruka says the he isn't the most hard worker guy), but he did train more than Sasuke (and Naruto believes in training to get results, while Sasuke believes in birthright).
B. Naruto couldn't turn out to be like Sasuke, Naruto's mirror image is Gaara, Sasuke's two representatives are Kakashi and Itachi.
C. Sasuke also faced his inner demons, that's how he got up from the curse seal at the first time.
D. I have to agree, Sasuke's Flashbacks are as one dimensoinal as Sakura's, "my brother killed my family, i'm so sad!", it's all he ever says...
E. I agree on this one too, Neji makes a better arragont jerk than Sasuke, he also has a deeper story to back it up.

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Well, two out of five ain't bad [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-happy.gif[/img]
A. You're right. Naruto didn't train as much as Lee. But he certainly trained more than Sasuke. I was somewhat trying to emphatize that point. And of course, no way Naruto would believe in birthright, but at the same time he doesn't resent people who were *born right*. Otherwise, he'd be revengeful, and not trying to make it on his own. Even though he considers Sasuke as a rival, I don't have the feeling that he ever was blatantly disrespectul towards him or said that his sharingan was worth crap. On the other hand, Sasuke never acknowledged Naruto's efforts. He doesn't even have a clue he has to do some effort besides his *birthright*. Kakashi is always babysitting him, and he didn't even bother to *listen* to him before he ran away.
At this point, *if* the theory that Naruto is the son of the 4th is correct, I believe the 4th must have wanted that to remain a secret, otherwise he might have become a spoiled monster just like Gaara...
B. Yeah, I thought of it, but didn't want to drag Gaara here, even though, later in another post, I mentioned Hinata. I was trying to see who had the most screwed up childhood and how each one reacted to it. Basically, even with all the drama, Sasuke's chilhood wasn't as screwed as Naruto's and yet he has a worse attitude.
C. Yeah, but huh, maybe Sakura helped him, then [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif[/img] After he faced Itachi and Naruto, he freaked out... Man it's just pathetic how jealous he is of the attention of his brother...I think his prob is that Itachi killed everybody *but* him...He may be even more twisted than we thought at first.
Still has to work do in what demon facing id concerned, IMO...

yeah, I guess you could say Sasuke is pathetic because he was so jealous of the attention Naruto got from Itachi, but that's because it's his brother who he has spent most of his life trying to be able to kill. In the same way Naruto is pathetic, in that his dream is based on everybody acknowledging him, and how he always gets jealous when people don't pay attention to him but someone else. For example, when we first see Gaara and Neiji, and they both want to fight Sasuke and not Naruto. Like I said before, it's all part of their character personality, you're not going to like everyone in the show.

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Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
I just want to say that the only reason the Sasuke survived was becuase someone took pity of him and didn't kill him ... some great survivor, he didn't even try to hide, he just pissed his pants in a "Shinji Ikari" way...

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do even remember what happened exactly? obviously not. i'll remind you.
so sasuke comes back after his training, and sees that everything is totally fucked up. so, naturally, he runs home to his family, only to find both parents pretty much dead with itachi standing near them. then he questions itachi why he did this but itachi responds with a mange sharingan, causing sasuke to collapse. soon after, sasuke gets up again and charges at itachi but is knocked down again his punch. so sasuke falls right infront of his parents' dead faces and gets scared from it and tries to avoid certain death by running away. itachi follows him and he calls out sasuke and sasuke stops to hear him out. and then the rest we don't know but we can assume that itachi just left after.

now, in all of that, where did sasuke piss his pants in a "shinji ikari" way? nowhere.

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and Sasuke isn't a SUPER genious, i'll give him genious at best, even Shikamaru (who said he looked up to Sasuke) believed that his team could beat Sasuke's team. People call Sasuke a genious just to satisfy Sasuke's fangirls and super ago (as in a super big ago, not the super ago of society's do and don't do), what has sasuke done to earn him the title of a genious? the Katon jutsu is nice, but it's hardly that great compared to other jutsus, such as Shino's bug techniques, or Kiba's dog attacks. (i'm talking about the beginning of the series, not about the current release)

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sasuke is the number 1 rookie, caught up to lee's speed (or around that) in a short amount of time while it took lee his whole life, able to use the sharingan at a relatively young age (obvious itachi is better), and he knows an abundant amount of jutsus.

yeah, sasuke rocks.

man you are such a sasuke fanboy....

Why can't people like sasuke, lee, naruto, etc equally. -_-

lee is cool, i don't DISagree with that. but naruto is just too lame for my taste, sorry. i'm actually not a sasuke fanboy, i like the character but not enough to call myself a sasuke fan. i'm more of a itachi and kakashi fan. maybe the 4th. =/

EDIT: lol yeah, i don't DISagree...it has been a hard day long day, i've had 6 LONG and BORING classes so far and my brain hurts...damn, still one more to go... D:

Do you mean "I don't disagree with that"?

Anyway, can't someone say a character is superior without being labeled a fanboy? I mean, sometimes characters are just obviously better and more skilled than others, no matter how much you hate them.

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Originally posted by: Vagabond
man you are such a sasuke fanboy....

Why can't people like sasuke, lee, naruto, etc equally. -_-

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You can't really like all characters equally when they're all different. Everybody has their own preference.

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Originally posted by: CmDr_RavEn
Do you mean "I don't disagree with that"?

Anyway, can't someone say a character is superior without being labeled a fanboy? I mean, sometimes characters are just obviously better and more skilled than others, no matter how much you hate them.

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Huh, so far, I don't think Sasuke has done enough to be called better skilled than anybody else... well, on the other hand, if you call running away and taking short-cuts, skills, well he *is* good at that...
I haven't see enough *facts* to call him genius... Did he beat Gaara to a pulp? Did he beat any Sound-nin? He was born with the sharingan and prettiness... so far, I don't see much merit own that. I've seen him trainning seriously only once.
Neji was the rookie of the year, and we know the reason for that. He surpassed his birthright and learned the Kaiten on his own, which is truly remarkable. But he learned and perfected it by *training*, and that was the way to surpass his birth limitations. He did get beaten by Naruto, but he also killed that Kidomaru spider fella... Hinata was born in the very same family...and for one reason or another she wasn't able to figure out the kaiten, and she does have even more birthright than Neji.
Shikamaru, who *is*a genius in *real* life, said that *geniuses can be fragile in real battle*, I tend to agree with him. During his first real challenge, without Kakashi to back him up, his answer was wet his pants and be ready to surrender the scrool to Oro. If it weren't for Naruto, he most likely wouldn't even try his fire-spitting trick. Don't really see anything exceptional in a scared kid, moved by revenge and jealousy.
As a matter of fact, I don't think he needs physical strenght or talent in fighting skills. If he had the guts to confront Itachi verbally, and asked him why did he kill his family, it would have been *way* more effective in starting to undermine his brother power. Pretty much like when Naruto, *before* beating Neji, screwed big time his *destiny* bs theory....

It's obvious you don't like Sasuke, we don't need to go on and on about it. These arguments aren't getting anywhere for any character.

A. You say he isn't a genius because he didn't beat Gaara to a pulp and didn't beat any Sound-nin, are those the only qualifications?
B. You say we never see Sasuke training seriously, but that Neiji trained to learn Kaiten. We didn't see that training either, just because it isn't shown doesn't mean it isn't happening. During the chakra control training (running up trees), Sasuke worked just as hard as Naruto.
C. The reason Hinata can't do Kaiten despite her birthright is because she was not talented enough and has no confidence in herself. That's why Hiashi ditched her to teach Hanabi.
D. Sasuke not wanting to fight Orochimaru and Naruto coming is brought up. Naruto did the same thing in his first fight vs. the Demon brothers and Orochimaru is way stronger than them. Sasuke realized this and didn't want everyone in their group to get killed, which they would've been if Oro fought them seriously. He also wants to live so that he can't avenge his clan.
E. You think if Sasuke just asks Itachi politely why he killed everyone in the clan, the whole thing will be solved. He already did that when he first walked in and saw Itachi next to his parents dead bodies, the result was Itachi using his Mange Sharingan, and basically telling him to live with hate in order to gain the power to avenge the clan.

This is just a battle between what character you like better. The argument could go on forever, because you're probably never going to sway a person into liking or not liking a character. In fact, I almost feel like I wasted my time writing such a long post.

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Originally posted by: KonohamaruCorps
It's obvious you don't like Sasuke, we don't need to go on and on about it. These arguments aren't getting anywhere for any character.

A. You say he isn't a genius because he didn't beat Gaara to a pulp and didn't beat any Sound-nin, are those the only qualifications?
B. You say we never see Sasuke training seriously, but that Neiji trained to learn Kaiten. We didn't see that training either, just because it isn't shown doesn't mean it isn't happening. During the chakra control training (running up trees), Sasuke worked just as hard as Naruto.
C. The reason Hinata can't do Kaiten despite her birthright is because she was not talented enough and has no confidence in herself. That's why Hiashi ditched her to teach Hanabi.
D. Sasuke not wanting to fight Orochimaru and Naruto coming is brought up. Naruto did the same thing in his first fight vs. the Demon brothers and Orochimaru is way stronger than them. Sasuke realized this and didn't want everyone in their group to get killed, which they would've been if Oro fought them seriously. He also wants to live so that he can't avenge his clan.
E. You think if Sasuke just asks Itachi politely why he killed everyone in the clan, the whole thing will be solved. He already did that when he first walked in and saw Itachi next to his parents dead bodies, the result was Itachi using his Mange Sharingan, and basically telling him to live with hate in order to gain the power to avenge the clan.

This is just a battle between what character you like better. The argument could go on forever, because you're probably never going to sway a person into liking or not liking a character. In fact, I almost feel like I wasted my time writing such a long post.

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I asked for *facts* that would show Sasuke's genius. So far, you brought none.
As for *liking* : Naruto is an extremelly annoying character, and so is Hinata. But, in my opinion, one can quote enough facts as two show that those two characters have enough reedeming qualities as to be judged only by their annoying characteristics.
So far, Sasuke, for what I observed, hasn't shown enough reedeming qualities as to be considered a worthwile character. As for people, *liking* him or not, that's their problem. If I am discussing this particular character my goal is to find facts that can eventually prove that he has something *likeable* on him. As I said, so far, I haven't come upon any *fact* about Sasuke that made me change my mind about him. More than that, I used to *like* both him and Sakura. Unfortunately, they turned out to be huge disappointments. Sorta same with Hinata. I thought she was a little whining pain in the ass. But, now, I have reasons to believe she's more than that.

A. not only, but one would assume a genius would show some competency and efficiency while performing his tasks.

B. I can assume, with Gai as a teacher, Neji wouldn't get away with being a lazy bum. So far, I remember both him and Tenten being totally exhausted while Lee was able to master the Lotus. Therefore, I have reasons to believe that he's trained a lot, and it's not far-fetched to assume that it lead him to master the Kaiten. Even right before his fight with Naruto, Neji was *training*. again, enought to leave Tenten exhausted. You may argue that she is weak, but the fact is that they both *train*.
I don't particularly like Neji. I think he is an arrogant jackass, but it would be stupid for me to deny his talent and the fact that he trains hard.

C. Huh, one can be talented and lack of confidence. If Hinata's father is an ass, that's not really her fault. IMO, the role of a father is *also* to instill self-confidence in his children, and not demand perfection from them. As the sucessor of the head family she's been put under enough pressure. I think she is doing quite all right, considering the expectations she has to fulfill. When she gets to be able to say *screw you, daddy*, things will get change even more for her. That's true because,since that was what happened when she said *screw you, Neji* in her very own polite way. Then again, you may think it's ok for her father to ditch her. Those are two different opinions about rearing children, and since she is his daughter, not mine, I am assuming her daddy can do as he wishes, and you are more than allowed to think that what he did is right.

D. During the fight with Oro, Naruto called him a coward... not me... I can think of many situations in the History of mankind that the will of staying alive made people cowards. Basically it's a matter of choice. But if you take in account the values taught in Konoha, cowardice is not among the top ten requirements for being a pro ninja. And I will tell you that. If one becomes a cop because his family was killed by criminals he's a real imbecile. Sasuke has no clue of what being a Ninja really means. At least, if you consider what Enma told the 3rd just before he died.

E. I said, *if* Sasuke were able to confront Itachi verbally, that *might start* to undermine his power. I didn't say that Itachi would be defeated with chit-chat. My point is based on the fact that Neji wasn't defeated with BS, and yet, Naruto's arguments had a strong repercussion on him, and apparently are helping him to show some redeeming qualites .

Once more, I can't care less for any of those characters, but I think discussing their traits based on *facts* is an interesting exercise, since I believe my arguments are based on observation and reflection and not in my personal likes and dislikes.

Go whopped by who??

Naruto haven't lost a fight yet. Fight a Kimi didnt even start to get real before Lee came.

personally, i don't think kimimaro has fought with a lot of effort and anger. i think he's just been taking it easy so far since naruto's and lee's attacks have been like, what, useless?

Good one Neiji-Aniki-Sama. I hope you can keep teaching me how to use this interesting excercise of discussing traits based on *facts* instead of preferences in an argument.

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Originally posted by: Death BOO Z
Sasuke is now going down by the path Itachi went through, it'll probably become more clear once we learn a bit more about Itachi's reason for killing his clan. and after that point, Sasuke might have a change of heart and go Kakashi-like...

Naruto also didn't work that hard for the Kyubi power, he just fell off a clip and then magically gained control over it (there was no step by step learning in it, it was a sudden realization of the power). Sasuke also hadn't work hard, by neither did he get it as a present, nine of every ten die from this "present", and only those with enough will and ambition can wake up from the shock...

don't forget that the curse seal uses your life energy, so it eats you away...

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You can say that Naruto have worked hard to get to use the power of Kyubi cause when he was weaker he couldn't use much of Kyubi power or controlled it. But now he can activate Kyubi in seconds.

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Then the seal would be unleashed and it would be suped-up rasengan vs. suped-up chidori. Hard to tell who would win though.

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As Kakashi said on the roof when Sasuke and Naruto tried to fight eachother with Rasengen and Chidori. He said the normal rasengen would kill Sasuke but Chidori wouldn't kill Naruto. So how in the world would Sasuke survie after being hit Rasengen with kyubi power. The normal Rasengen almost killed Kabuto despite he was using his medical moves to protect!


I hope the fight beteween Naruto and Sasuke becomes a tie cause it would suck if Naruto this powerful losed to a vengeful Sasuke with curse lv2 who cant be compared to the Kyubi powerwise.

Naruto should lose against someone realy powerful like Oro,Itachi or someone else in Akatsuki.

For future reference people: Ignore threads based on people getting beat by other people. I've said this before, about 12 times, and I'll say it one more time for the new people here. "You cannot prove who will win in a fight before the fight." There was a whole sub-plot that was about this, and although you might have taken it as a STORY, it's true. So, MOVE ON PEOPLE.

As far as Sasuke being a genius, Gai said it best: "you can't just learn that by copying it with Sharingan." Sasuke didn't get Lee's speed in a month without practicing, like you have been suggesting. He busted his nuts to get it. Same w/ Chidori. It's not so much of a jutsu as it is a chakra-control skill. Sasuke didn't just walk up a tree in the tree-climbing episode, did he? I mean, if Sharingan was as cheap and stupid as you suggest, he would have seen Kakashi do it w/ crutches, and walked up the tree horizontally using his pinkies. Instead, he had to practice it.

And liking characters equally... is dumb. Everyone is going to have a preferred character based on their own personality type. This type of thing is usually based off of internal personality, and a desired external personality. We like characters "most" because they satisfy both of our personalities. I like Lee and Shika the most (Naruto has been on the favor-wane), so you can tell a lot about me by reading into that. You can tell a lot about everyone on this board by whom they like most. If you're talking about liking personalities "equally", what makes Sakura's personality not as ... likeable/worthy as Naruto's, Sasuke's, etc.? Well, because her personality is trashf@#k.

Well, I think that's as many words as I should spend tonight.

-xtortout

So Neji-Ankiki-sama, what you're saying is that if Sasuke really was a genius, he would have been able to beat Gaara and at least one of the sound nins. Just curious, just how do you think Naruto would do against Gaara when he used his sand shield thingie? Or Shikamaru, who is considered to be the smartest of the genins? They'd be pretty much useless against him, now wouldn't they? Considering that very few had attacks that were able to pierce that shand shield of his. I'd actually argue that Gaara was in a more vulnarable state when he was transforming and Sasuke and Co caught up with him. After all, that was the function of the shield in the first place, wasn't it? To protect him through his metamorphosis. And apparently, Sasuke was the first one to ever make Gaara bleed. He hurt him pretty bad, which was apparently a feat in itself.

As for the sound nins, do you really think that those where fair odds? 4vs1, and he didnt have any equipment either. He was more or less unarmed, and was taken by surprise to boot, and he couldn't hide anywhere to plan his attacks either.

Third, you claim that Sasuke doesnt train. You think the Chidori just popped out of thin air? That him achieving the same speed (roughly) as lee in less than a month was just something he pulled out of his ass? And there is the aforementioned tree climbing excersice as well. Just because they didn't show him training like Naruto doesn't mean that he didn't.
And in the forest he DID beat Orochimaru (although Oro wasnt exactly doing anything other than gauging the potential of sauske). Still, that is an impressive feat.

Lastly, whats all this crap about him trying to kill Naruto? If you mean their fight at the hospital, check it again, and you'll see that although sasuke initiated the conflict, it's Naruto that brings out the heavy guns first, with the Rasengan, an attack that very well could have killed Sasuke. So sasu was only facing it with the force he deemed neccesary (sp?). So if anyone here is a thoughtless, arrogant asshole, its Naruto. I mean really, that attack almost killed Kabuto for pete's sake, and he's using it against a teammate? Bah.

Naruto might be the one to pull out the big guns first, but Sasuke was the one with the killing intention...

Naruto doesn't know how dangerous the Rasengan is to humans, all he seen was that it blew away (not even injured) the Stone chunin, and the only time he had a chance to see it in real life, was against Kabuto, who took the hit pretty well (and after that, both him and naruto collapssed, so Naruto doesn't know that jutsu's power).

Sasuke, however, is clearly aware that the Chidori is desinged for killing, and he knew nothing about the Rasengan, beside the fact it's some new jutsu.

and look, with a few simple annalyzsis, we've got to the point in which Sasuke is a jerk, what a wonder...

Sasuke seems to rely on something if you ask me, when he fought lee he had to rely on his sharingan, when he fought gaara he relied on his chidori, and now he seems to rely on lvl 2. cursed seal,

As for Naruto he sometimes does the same thing with his shadow clones but, when that doesnt work he goes outside the box and thinks of a ingenious way to defeat his enemy, now he may use the rasengan now but thats only b/c he wants to master it. and everyone like Itachi wants naruto b/c of the Kyuubi.

Sasuke has a inferiority problem b/c in the begining we say that everyone wanted to fight him but now that everyone saw what naruto can do with his power, Sasuke gets jealous and goes around bitching about how he cant compare to Naruto, its like dragonball z(with goku and vegeta) but in a different situation

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Originally posted by: Knives122
As for Naruto he sometimes does the same thing with his shadow clones but, when that doesnt work he goes outside the box and thinks of a ingenious way to defeat his enemy, now he may use the rasengan now but thats only b/c he wants to master it.

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yeah, he relies on kyubi chakra to save his ass.

you forgot, lee - gates.

Every character relies on something.

Chouji (their clan) relies on red diet pills. (clan specialty)
Neji - relies on byakugen. (birth right)
Sasuke - relies on sharingan. (birth right)
Kiba - relies on animals. (clan specialty)
Shino - relies on bugs. (clan specialty)
Naruto - relies on kyubi (birth right)

Once Sasuke completely developes his sharingan. As well as the mange sharingan @lvl1 he wil be a match for Itachi. Itachi is strong but his real strength is his mange sharingan, and the speed of his jutsu. after a while with Oro, copying techniquescopying techniques, and what not; once the mange sharingan isnt an issue Sasule will be a match for Itachi. Itach is going to have a fight...and a tough one. certain skills and techniques are bad matches for other. sharingan vs sharingan match is going to come down to chakra lvl and high speed taijutsu the worste match for a sharingan user according to Lee( wich sasuke has ). With chidori, Lee's speed and most like by time he fights itachi he'll have @least Kakashi's speed, Itachi will lose.

seriously even Tsunade would have troubles with Itachi

Sasuke has more potential that Itachi, itachi knows this and noticed. remeber when Sasuke asking Itachi for help wth throwing- he said he noticed Itachi's way was better... do you remeber how Itachi was suprised that he noticed that at such a younge age. he wasnt but 3-4 when this took place. Itachi grew up having the training and luxuries of living in a noble family. Sasuke had the name but thats about it. Once he was in an environment where he was challenged he was able to grow, and grow rapidly. i no Sasuke fan. but Oro, wants him for a reason. he was #1 rookie for a reason. Itachi left him behind for a reason. he knew that Sasuke would be able to meet or exceed his ability.

Itachi's strength is his mange sharingan this is the reason Oro fears him, and jyraiya, as well as Tsunade would aso have a tough time defeating him. but in no way would he be able to "shut out" any of the 3.

you're giving sasuke WAY too much credit there buddy. sorry, but sasuke still has no chance against itachi.

It will take years for Sasuke get comparable with Itachi, maybe when he mastered sharingan (3 dots), and learned Mangekyou Sharingan, and such high-level jutsus, then maybe he could begin thinking of fighting Itachi.

i dont recall saying now i did mention how i was factoring @least 3 years of training with Oro( it will likely take more than 3, but after 3 Oro is jsut gong to take his body and handle the Itachi job himself ). No now Sasuke will get bitch smacked like he did the last 2 times. He skill lvl needed to tackle any of the high lvl characters. that not what i was getting at i was simply saying at lvl 2 he might have the chakra lvls needed to do it. and i have a feeling Sasuke is gong to have 4 marks in his eye. up to this point we have only seen 3 that does not mean that 3 is its limit. After all the potential in his eyes exceeds Itachi's

but it's been said that itachi is the true successor of sharingan and is a master user. and 4 dots is too crowded.

I remember that kakashi mentioned in a falshback to Sasuke's training before the Chuunin 3rd round that if he lets the seal take over that he'll never be as strong as Itachi it was like 2 or 3 episodes (anime) ago or something. Unless the cursed seal can be reversed somehow by Jiraiya or Tsunade i don't think Sasuke has a chance of defeating Itachi.

Oro explicitly stated the potential in sasuke's eye exceeded Itachi. i tihnk by "true" it was meant to say kakashi was not.

blah blah blah blah is stronger...


(Rock>Scissors>Paper) thus Rock>Paper?

Naruto + kyuubi at this point isn't the ultimate fighter. obviously proven from the kimimaro fight. I think Kyuubi Naruto vs. Level 2 Sasuke might be a good fight. In terms of sheer power, Naruto is superior. In terms of Skill, Sasuke is superior.

We know the biggest problem with Rasengan is landing the blow. Naruto needs to pull out a trick on the side to land it. He needed to trap Kabuto. When he went up against sasuke the first time, it was because Sasuke was overconfident about chidori. Prior to the special move showdown between the two, Sasuke was holding off the Kage Bushins pretty good. It was when they resorted to Rasengan and Chidori did Naruto have a good chance to land a finishing blow.

The matchup between Kyuubi Naruto and Level 2 Sasuke will be like the first, except more powered up. Except this time Sasuke is going to be wary about the Rasengan and not go head on with it. Rasengan was evaded once by Kabuto and parried another by one of hte sound nins. We shouldn't be expecting less from Naruto. Sasuke is gonna go back with naruto in one of 2 ways. Defeat or surrender. I don't see Defeat happening unless Naruto pulls off some slick trick to land Rasengan or the others catch up to help. But of course I don't see Sasuke surrendering either. In a 1on1 battle, I think Sasuke has the standing upper hand, but we know Naruto will probably pull off an improvised trick. If that fails, I'd expect to see help coming.

But the next 30 chapters should be interesting (this forest trek is dragging waaay to long in my opinion though)

sorry to break it to you guys but...sasuke isn't going back to the leaf. that would destroy like like 2/3 of the story line.

Bahamut made a good point:

In terms of sheer raw power, with the Kyubi's chakra Naruto is stronger.

However, with the Sharingan, and range of tai and nin-jutsu skills being greater from the beginning, Sasuke is more skilled. Gamabunta remarked on that: Naruto's got alot of potential but his style is very awkward.

How would brute strength match up with skill and finesse? That's always a hard one to call.

About Sasuke and leaving the Leaf:

I think it's obvious how a parallel is being drawn between Team 7 and the Three Nins. And some people have commented, rightfully, I think, that Naruto's winning a little too much lately.

What would be more frustrating for Naruto, and a real eye-opener, would be not that he's unable to beat Sasuke in a straight-up fight, but that he's unable no matter what to change his mind. That's where Naruto has really excelled -- he changes people's opinions not only of him but of themselves as well. Neji rethought his ideas about destiny and really gained some respect for Naruto, and we have seen Gaara beginning to possibly rethink his ideas about killing being the only reason for his existance.

However, if Naruto was (and I think he will be) unable to change Sasuke in the same way, I think that it would be a heavy blow to him, and really give him a new way to grow to overcome that.

In the same time, I think what Sasuke will eventually have to face is the idea that he's in serious danger of becoming as evil as his brother is in order to defeat him. This is a theme that occurs everywhere in literature and media: in order to defeat the enemy, is it necessary to become him? Or is that something to be avoided and feared?

I like that idea about Naruto not being able to change Sasuke's mind about revenge.

However i think unless the whole Itachi=good guy theory works out he's not changing

from the dialouge i've seen Sasuke use he's not concerned with the wrongness of Itachi's actions but who they were done to.

I have yet to see him state moral superiority over his brother and his lines of selling himself to the devil for the power to do so and not caring about his rank so long as he has the power to kill Itachi lead me to believe he's well set on getting his vengeance.

Normally the whole "Do you become a demon to kill one?" argument occurs in people who waver i haven't seen Sasuke second quess his vendetta yet.

he already did change Sasuke, and Oro noticed it wich is why he said he needed to break thoose 2 apart. had the 4 sound not gone and gotten a hold of Sasuke's ear he would have stayed in Kohona- and i totally agree Sasuke isnt going back to Kohona, @least not now. Naruto is going to get a rude awakening and knocked the f$%! out, sorry to say. Sasuke is a telented nin, now that he can match the amount of 9 tails chakra that naruto can currently tap into( i did not say he could match total power of kyubi chakra ) naruto = owned. but Sasuke unlike the other sound. wont try to kill naruto, he loves him to much; for the past couple years Naruto has been his Brother. he'll just put him in lala land for a while.

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Originally posted by: Lithonite
he already did change Sasuke, and Oro noticed it wich is why he said he needed to break thoose 2 apart. had the 4 sound not gone and gotten a hold of Sasuke's ear he would have stayed in Kohona- and i totally agree Sasuke isnt going back to Kohona, @least not now. Naruto is going to get a rude awakening and knocked the f$%! out, sorry to say. Sasuke is a telented nin, now that he can match the amount of 9 tails chakra that naruto can currently tap into( i did not say he could match total power of kyubi chakra ) naruto = owned. but Sasuke unlike the other sound. wont try to kill naruto, he loves him to much; for the past couple years Naruto has been his Brother. he'll just put him in lala land for a while.

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this is brilliant and i truly agree on it. i wish i said this first.

What makes u think that Sasukes lvl 2 seal has the power to match Kyubi's power? Comparing Naruto vs Kimimaro fight to the upcoming Naruto vs Sasuke fight really doesnt make much sense. Seeing as how Kimi really didnt rely upon the lvl 2 seal so much as the power of his blood inheritance limit. Naruto may very well get his ass kicked but we'll see.

Sasgay is the new missing-nin, maybe he will change his foreheadprotector with a mark over the konoha sign [img]i/expressions/face-icon-small-tongue.gif[/img]

this fight between the two will be big(sort of like the Oro/3rd fight but without all the waiting around for some thing to happen) I think that when the fight starts it will look like Sasuke is winning but Naruto will come back (big suprise from sasuke). then Sasuke goes level two and beats the crap out of Naruto(which makes naruto waste all his chakra). This will make Naruto tap in to his kyubi chakra. and the two will fight and be on par. Then the two will discover that they are equal and Sasuke will tell Naruto how he needs to leave and find out who he really is(basically he said he was a avenger, but he wants to see if thats really true) Naruto will understand and let him leave.

Thats my interesting opinion on what will happen when Naruto catches up with Sasuke