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I don't think there was necessarily anything wrong with this fight, per se. The problem might be that Tobi vs two jinchuuriki and Madara vs five village leaders have set the bar so high that this one looks like nothing but a minor scuffle. Although for me personally the main problem is that I still, despite seeing this episode, fail to believe Kabuto could possibly fare too well for too long against two competent Uchiha. So, there's no tension for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
Holyshitholyshitholyshit! Kabuto, SOOOO MUCH more fucking awesome than I thought he was going to be!
1. Apparently knows how to take other people's Kekkei Genkai. Fucking awesome.
2. SAGE MOOOOODE! Awesome to have it confirmed also that Frog Sage is not the only kind of Sage.
Other points of interest:
Karin is also an Uzumaki. Cool.
Juugo's ability uses Nature Chakra. So that means all the Cursed Marks did as well? Which means Sasuke had Sage Mode-lite long before Naruto had Sage Mode. Too bad he lost it.
So Reanimations really do have infinite chakra? Does seem like Orochimaru should have had himself reanimated then instead of going to all the trouble of stealing bodies.
Seriously though, Kabuto is really not giving himself enough credit. He's so much better than Orochimaru was at this point.
Although I doubt that's going to be of any relevance in this story, but it would be pure bullshit if true. Where on Earth would that chakra come from? From the Underworld? You'd think the ruler of the Underworld would exact a price later, and it wouldn't be a nice price to pay.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
While I agree there's no logical reason for it, I'd say it's already been relevant to the story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
I don't know how powerful Madara was when he was alive. I'm sure he'd have been able to perform most of the techniques he was using. But to be able to use an endless stream of them one after another of summoning meteors, creating forests, burning down said forests, summoning Susano'o, creating 25 clones and having each of THEM summon a Susano'o...
I'm guessing living Madara would have run out of Chakra by now. He's not a Jinchuuriki. Naruto had to get power from Kurama just to counter ONE of those attacks.
The fact that he's still throwing out ultimate attacks at the Kage's is likely a testament to this unlimited chakra he has.
The other possibility is that it's also Nature chakra. We already know they draw the material that makes up their bodies from the enviroment around them. Maybe that's where the chakra comes from as well.
There's no way the ninja world wouldn't use nature chakra a lot more if it was that convenient and easy (so that even zombies can use it).Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
I'll just keep myself happy by imagining it's either the god of death lending power in exchange for a zombie apocalypse the foolish humans never saw coming in their greed, or Kabuto will spend his afterlife tormented by undead demons for an eternity as the high price. After all, nothing is free even if the price isn't readily apparent.
I think the infinite chackra thing seems like BS to me, although maybe it's restored when they 'die' and reform.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Something Orochimaru related that interests me.
If Kabuto reanimates Orochimaru somehow, could Oro use his body transfer to take over Kabuto's (or anyone else's) body and thus truly revive?
Since that technique is basically a soul transfer from 1 body to another, and edo tensei does partially the same.. transfer the soul of a dead person to a living vessel.
It's not really relative to the story, but the idea came to mind and I'm interested in ppls ideas to this.
Also because Oro's death was só anticlimactic that I somewhat hope he's still alive somehow.
You're assuming it's a conscious thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
As they just established in this episode, Nature chakra is not, like, this weird thing you need to know how to use. Sage mode lets you collect it, but once you have it, you can do all the same stuff with it that you do with normal chakra.
After all, the Cursed Seal is Nature chakra, and Sasuke could use it just fine without knowing a damn thing about Sage jutsu.
Edo Tensei could function the same way. The jutsu itself draws in the Nature chakra, and the zombies just use it the way they would any other chakra.
He probably could, but again, why would you WANT to?Quote:
Originally Posted by Harima Kenji
They haven't shown a single advantage a living human has over a Reanimation. The only real downside is being under control of the user, but I suspect that if the user wanted to, he could let an reanimation be completely under it's own control.
I thought this up ages ago, but the smartest thing you could do, since Edo Tensei doesn't dispel when the user dies, would be to create an animation, and command it to perform Edo Tensei on you, you kill yourself, the animation brings you back, then you dispel your Edo Tensei, destroying that reanimation, leaving you reanimated, and the person that reanimated you is gone and thus there's no way to release the jutsu animating you.
Again: If it was so easy and convenient, everybody and their ninja dogs would be using it. But it isn't. You need to be a sage or have it in your bloodline. That's why incredibly few people have used it and Kabuto seemed to be beside himself that he's able to. The cursed seal apparently, maybe, allowed it, but it seems to me like it wasn't any shortcut to happiness. It was more like a part of Orochimaru himself parasitically inside the curse marked people, and that allowed the nature chakra to flow into them.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Dunno. I have a feeling those zombies can't get it up anymore. Maybe it would be a viable option if you were already an old geezer with grandchildren, but before that, not worth it just for the power and undead immortality.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
I dunno man. A lot of these characters seem like they have more important ways to spend eternity than boning.
Again, I don't think it's USING Nature chakra that is difficult, it's collecting it for you to use without doing something terrible to your body(like turning into a statue, or going berserk, etc.) that requires some kind of advanced technique.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
Which reminds me, given what we know about Nature chakra, (that the better you are at harnessing it, the less animal-like you become), is it safe to assume that Kabuto is actually pretty terrible at it compared to, say, Naruto?
Perhaps, perhaps not. The frogs seemed kind of benevolent to their contractors. I'd expect the snakes to be treacherous, to the point of withholding certain details from Kabuto. Their techniques might also differ fundamentally. Oro was always very snakelike himself, but Jiraiya mainly showed frogness in specific techniques.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Any particular reason we`re cool with infinite regeneration but not with infinite chakra pool?
Well, the infinite regeneration is explained. It draws physical matter from the surrounding environment to form the semblance of a human body. And when you blast it apart, it just draws in more material.
If it's doing the same thing with chakra, it should be coming from someplace. Which is fine, they should just explain where.
Seemingly infinite regeneration is no sweat if you have enough chakra. Chakra is the magic that allows anything and everything in the Naruto world. But so far it has been severely limited, though less so for competent jinchuuri who can draw from the monsters within.
Throughout the show, right from the beginning, we have been seeing how different ninja have different max amounts of chakra, as well as chakra regen rate, and how they have learned to deal with it and adapt their tactics to suit their personal limits. All of that natural sounding background is thrown into the trash can if you suddenly have fricking zombies with infinite chakra. There's also no way those zombies wouldn't have been thoroughly studied, if that was indeed true, so that the source of that infinite chakra could be adapted to serve living ninja. There has to be a catch, and a big one at that. Or the mangaka just sucks... But I'll rather give him the benefit of doubt.
We are spending too much time talking about this infinite chakra thing and not enough about how awesome Kabuto is.
Snake Sage? Stealing Kekkei Genkais? C'mon!
Sorry, but Kabuto will always be nothing but Orochimaru's henchman for me. Oro had his own nefarious style, dream, agenda, history, and atmosphere, made all the better by his awesome music theme. Kabuto is somebody who was helping Oro and dreamed to be like Oro. With Oro gone, he's doing what he can to replace Oro. When he realised he might have surpassed Oro in some ways, he thinks he's at the top of the world.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
In short, Kabuto is nothing but Orochimaru's shadow and he will never be anything but that. He's not his own man creating his own legend.
I think we've had this argument before.
Kabuto has surpassed Orochimaru in pretty much every single regard at this point. He's a true snake sage making his snake powers better than Oro's. He's a hell of a lot better at Edo Tensei. And instead of wasting his time trying to take over a body with one Kekkei Genkai he wants, he's figured out how to steal as many as he wants in his own body.
Calling him his Shadow is like calling Naruto Jiraiya's shadow, or Sasuke Madara's shadow. He's his successor.
In some ways that's what Naruto is. He's the main character of Jiraiya's book. He freely adopted Jiraiya's ideal. Although there's the slight difference that long before meeting Jiraiya Naruto was already established as the unconventional ninja who wanted to capture Konoha's attention and become the Hokage. You know, I have hardly ever been impressed by Naruto in this story. He's an idiot. Jiraiya, however, was quite an asskicker in many ways. And I'm not talking about the level of power (because Naruto is already more powerful).Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Sasuke... Come on. Sasuke is nothing at all. He's an avenger and that's just emptiness. Madara has his crazy dream of becoming a god and ruling over the world. You can't go much more super villain than that. He even has what it'd take to pull it off, provided his enemies don't stop him.
I just don't see how Kabuto is any different. You seem to just be calling him an Oro copycat just because he uses the same powers as him. Which, I don't see how that's any different than any other character in the series. Most of them are straight up in clans where they all have the same powers.
Does he? Or is that just Tobi's dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
I don't think Madara has actually explained his motivations yet. Although he seems to be working with Tobi, that doesn't mean they have the same goal. Just like Paine was working with Tobi and thought the plan was completely different from what it actually was.
I hope Itachi doesn't die before telling sasuke to stop being a chode. If Kabuto manages to take down two of some of the strongest Uchiha's when fighting them 1-on-2, I think it's safe to say he's surpassed Oro.
On a totally unrelated note, for those of you who saw the "what does the fox say" youtube video - I saw a pretty funny comment.
"I've been a Naruto fan for a long time and I have never heard of Kurama saying Gering ding ding ding dingeringeding." haha
So Naruto and Karin are cousins? Interesting... surprised she didn't make the Uzumaki connection when she first met Naruto. :/
Isnt the whole turning in to the animal traits part of not mastering Sage mode? The forgs beat Naurto hard to force the nature chakra out when he was turning in to a frog. I am assuming Kabuto hasn't mastered it since he's got the snake traits. Naruto can activate full sage mode easy now. I think Kabuto's Sage mode is half complete. I think Itachi and Sasuke will probably ease him. We still don't know a lot about Itachi by now.
I wish they'd hurry up and get back to Naruto. I don't know why they didn't name this anime "Konoha" instead. Since Naruto is always pushed to the side and non-important roles take precedence. :P
If he had had enough time to establish himself as an independent character, then maybe I would have acknowledged him as such. But I reckon his time is growing short now. For absolutely most of the show he was just a person doing Oro's bidding and that's it. It's made even worse by Oro having had such a huge presence. It's hard to get rid of that. It doesn't help he even got some of Oro's looks after his transformation. The impression he's giving is: "I'm Kabuto, Orochimaru's successor, and will do what my master couldn't" rather than "I'm Kabuto and my deeds will shake the world".Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
It's totally analogous to a son of a great man. Everybody he meets will say: "Oh, you are XXX's son? We expect great things from you."
I thought it was always referred to as Madara's plan. But then again, Tobi was impersonating Madara, so maybe that's where the confusion comes from. However, Madara being dead already, he ought to be beyond caring. Or more likely Tobi is something that was created when Madara still lingered.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
I get the distinct impression that neither Nagato nor Karin know their from the Uzumaki clan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Skill
Remember that the clan has essentially been wiped out. Any that escaped were probably hiding their heritage from their children. i.e. Nagato in the Rain and Karin in the Grass.
Well, even Jiraiya couldn't use Sage mode without becoming a little froglike. So I doubt the fact that he's all snake-like means he's actually any weaker. Just not as practiced at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Skill
The more important question is, why can he move while still absorbing nature chakra? Is it because of Juugo's DNA? Or is it because Snake sage doesn't have that same limitation?
He didn't seem at all surprised to be back from the dead. He was just surprised it was through Edo Tensei.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraco
It's Jugo's dna that allows him to harness the energy.
I was under the impression he turned while he was hiding.
Even if he had, remember that Sage mode runs out quickly either from time, or being used for powerful attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by UChessmaster
So since it's not gone already, he'd have to be recharging it while moving. Which, I'll agree with Buff, is because of Juugo's DNA.
But so far he used like...one technique...how do you figure he`d be dry by now? And was it stated sage mode runs out with time? i thought it was only by using techniques.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
One offensive technique maybe. But he's been doing a lot of turning into liquid and regeneration as well. I assume all of that takes chakra.Quote:
Originally Posted by UChessmaster
They were very explicit. With Naruto at least, Sage Mode only lasts about 5 minutes. And if he uses powerful techniques like the double Rasengan or the Rasenshuriken, it runs out even faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by UChessmaster
Sage mode also isn't for everyone. To be effective (and safe), the user needs to have a large chakra reserve for the mixing. Naruto was born for it. Kabuto never struck me as someone like that.. so I thought he should be gathering it constantly instead.
Naruto also had a bunch of clones gather chakra for him before his fight with Pain, that greatly enhanced his endurance.
I have a feeling Uchess may be right though, and that they're just ignoring all of this for the sake of powering up Kabuto.
He wasn't. But remember, he has the chakra of the Uzumaki clan now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
Their big deal is having awesome lifespans (from their tenacious life force, according to Kabuto - he learned to heal himself quickly from Karin) and knowing sealing techniques.Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthEnderX
Chakra isn't one of them.
I think life force and chakra are connected to each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
Explains why Naruto has always had an abnormally large amount of chakra.
I always assumed Naruto got the large chakra from the 4th.
While on the subject, if Naruto is the SoTSP incarnate, would he got that from the 4th side or his mother side, if the Rinnegan is a trait from the Uzumaki clan? Being Naruto and 4th look a like now. :P
Sounds like continuity errors coming for the sake of story. :P Like to see the creator explains this later on.:P
IS Uzumaki all that related to the sage? I just thought Naruto and Sasuke would be the two powers of the sage just as a spiritual representation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Skill
I thought Tobi mentioned something like the Rinnegan being a trait to the Uzumaki. I could be wrong. I'd have to go back quite a few epiodes I think to find it.
They're distantly related to the Senju clan. Which makes them related to the Sage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffalobiian
It's definitely from his mother.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Skill
They explicitly said the reason they made her the Jinchuuriki in the first place is because of her "strong chakra". Naruto clearly inherited this.
I'm simply assuming that this chakra is a trait shared by most of the Uzumaki.
I said that back when they first revealed that Nagato was an Uzumaki. I was all "Ooh, if an Uzumaki has the Rinnegan, then maybe Naruto can get it too!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Skill
But they never actually said anything to that effect in the show. Especially since Madara claims he activated it on his own. I'm beginning to suspect maybe Tobi wasn't lying when he said he gave the Rinnegan to Nagato.
I think the most likely explanation currently is that the Rinnegan is created when a Sharingan user gets some Senju DNA. Which Madara claimed he did before he died. And then obtained the Rinnegan afterwards.
It's also makes sense if the Sage's eyes are activated by recombining his two direct bloodlines. Senju and Uchiha.
So since Tobi seems to have a Zetsu body(which is made of Senju cells) and has a collection of Sharingans, it's totally possible that he created a pair of Rinnegan and then transplanted them to Nagato.
Ah true. What a let down though if it is true. Good points. Thanks Darth. :)