Let's learn Japanimationese!

So I was at a fancy Japanese steakhouse in Tokyo recently and the waiter kept asking me if I was ready to order, and I couldn't make myself understood that I wasn't ready. I don't think he was trying to be pushy, he was just trying to be attentive and a good host.

Remembering back to some anime I've watched, I threw out "chotto matte-yo" to ask him to give me a minute. He looked a little abashed and backed off quickly. I hadn't meant to be rude or too straight-forward but didn't realize what I had said. I should have said "chotto matte", but what did I know? Anime had steered me wrong.

So here goes:

-yo at the end of any statement adds emphasis and is considered forceful and somewhat crude. So whenever you hear someone in anime say something ending in "yo", its because they're making a firm or strong statement. That's why "nan da yo" is often translated as "what the f*ck?". Literally it still means "what is it?", but with some force behind it.

Some anime examples:

da-tte-ba-yo (in this word, both the "tte" and the "yo" are emphasis words)
de gozaru yo (from Kenshin, means "that it is", but with emphasis)

Any native speakers or learned-gaijin, please feel free to correct me or add to this.

I guess I will throw down something.

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

da-tte-ba-yo (in this word, both the "tte" and the "yo" are emphasis words)
de gozaru yo (from Kenshin, means "that it is", but with emphasis)

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Naruto's style is '(verb stem)tte bayo!' For instance, wakattebayo is "I get it already" or nan dattebayo is "What (the heck) is that?" It is another colloquialism not linked to any specific dialect that is meant to make the speaker sound rough and brusque, not very refined, and trying to sound tougher than they really are.

Kenshin's 'de gozaru' is an antiquated, very polite way of saying 'desu' which is like 'it is' in English.

Example:

Sou nan desu ka? (Is that so?) becomes Sou nan de gozaru (ka is implied).
Another antiquated style of this is to modify it to Sou nan de gozansu ka. That is more rare though.

Interesting thread though...

Good stuff.

So is "bayo" an actual word or suffix, or a combination or "ba" and "yo"?

Heh heh. A gaijin ruffian! Well, at least you got the time needed to pick your choice, no doubt!

An interesting thread, like DF said.

"Remembering back to some anime I've watched, I threw out..." Man, that's gotta be an instantly legendary line.

It was a 9600yen (~$84) dinner (4-course steak dinner) at a swanky restaurant, so I took my time deciding between that and a 6-course dinner that was something like $115. It was my last meal in Japan, so why not.

Funniest part about the "remembering back" was that it was exactly what happened. I was feeling the pressure, like when you're shopping for a TV and the sales person won't leave you alone, then I suddenly remembered, I know how to say "gimme a minute", I've heard it a million times watching anime! Unfortunately it lead to the "yo" mistake, which I still regret.

Feel free to add some lessons. I want to get to the point that I can watch most of a mainstream anime episode without relying on subtitles.

...you were in japan? Did they speak english? Can you speak Japanese? If they could speak english why didn't you just say give me a minute. ?

Yes I was. No they don't. No I can't (well just a few phrases). They are required to take 6 years of English in high school, but are too damn humble and embarrassed to try speaking it to a native speaker for fear of looking foolish.

I know how they feel. Especially in my old school, where pronounciation was the key and you had to speak like you grew up across the street from (insert name of quaint mom & pop restaurant in foreign country).

Since this thread started with knowledge derived from anime, maybe it would be prudent to say that if the English classes in Japan are in the reality like they are in anime, the Japanese people might have a good reason not to speak English in order to not look foolish...

Well, perhaps it's just the voice actors and actresses' fault for making the English classes look so miserable. Still, for people whose native language, voice and speaking skills are their primary tools at work, you would think they would also be statistically better than an average joe in learning foreign languages as well.

English and Japanese are such fundamentally different languages that it's no shame in not being able to master one if you only know the other. It's just that the Japanese are proud of their humility and thus even if they can speak English, they won't both to 1) keep from making a mistake and looking foolish and 2) not be too boastful of their ability.

@Kraco: I don't understand your first paragraph. Can you elaborate?

It's just that I haven't seen a single school anime where the English classes of even high school level would really demonstrate the kind of language skills I'd assume the students, especially the bright ones, in reality have. Or should have after many years of studying it. And I have seen quite a few of those series.

Well, I was mainly joking, or half joking. I have never really expected the scenes in anime to represent the reality. Especially for the teachers that would of course be totally unreasonable: The teachers are voice acted by voice actors, not real English teachers, after all.

Do yourself a favor and, when you're in Japan, don't talk to the Japanese as you've learned from anime or you scare them wih your rudeness.

I'm not sure I understand why, but it seems to be a rule. All cool anime character are either rude or extremely outdated... for instance, the "de gozaru" you've quoted so much? Absoltely no one uses it. Ever. Unless you're an actor filming a movie set in Edo Japan.
If you go around Tokyo saying "Blah blah de gozaru" everyone will be like WTF?

Some other tips...

Try to extract the particles such as "yo", "ne", "sa", "zo" and "ze".
For instance, "Chotto matte-yo" is rude, as is "Ano sa!", or any verbal phrase with "zo" or "ze" added at the end.

Also, if you want to deny something, you might have noticed that, for instance, Naruto, Sasuke, Ichigo and most males say "blah blah ja nee".
"Ja nee" works as a denial of anything but it's EXTREMELY rude (see the caps? That's how rude it is). A more proper form is "ja nai" or "ja arimasen."

Great material here.

I knew about "de gozaru" being anachronistic, but I just started watching Rurouni Kenshin so it's fresh on my mind. Using that phrase would be almost as bad as carrying a sword around modern Japan (yeah, they take their language that seriously).

So there's a ton of suffix particles that are considered rude? Weird. I knew about -yo and -zo, but "ne"? I heard that like a milion times on the train, and mostly from older ladies.

And "ja nee", doesn't that mean "see you later"? You hear it in anime all the time translated as "seeya", or is "nee" spelled differently?

There's a slight differente between "Ja ne!" (Later!) and "Ja nee". In the second you'd have to put more emphazis on the "eh" and make it sound longer... it's a very msculine way of denying something. Try to watch Naruto or Bleach, and when a male-macho character denies something, pay attention - he'll use "nee" instead of "nai".

For instance -
"That's not it!"
Female - "Sonnan ja nai!"
Male - "Sonnan ja nee-!"

"I won't eat it!"
Female - "Tabenai!"
Male - "Tabenee-!"

See? The "nai" becomes a nee-.

Which is different from "ne". "Ne" is used mostly by females and, when making a rethorical question/confirming something, by males. It doesn't mean much, and of all the particles, it's the safest to use.

Also, careful with your "I" forms.
"Watashi" is the safest, since is neutral and formal.
"Atashi" is only for women but it's informal and not to be used with just anyone.
"Boku" is for men and is polite, therefore safe to use.
"Ore" is for men and also a big No. Too informal and rude if you use it with strangers.

There are more, but those are the important ones :p

It's funny because mostly you hear in anime the "ore" and "omae" forms, but considering who's talking (like Gaara addressing Sasuke before he fights him), it makes sense.

Thanks for the explanation about nai and nee, though thinking back I can't recall anyone ever using "nee", but I didn't know to listen for it either.

Stressing the ending sound seems to be an important way to add emphasis in the Japanese language. Like the cute waitresses at the ramen restaurants in Kyoto all said "onegaishimasss" or "arigato gozaimasss".

Here's something else I learned:

"arigato gozaimasu" is for thanking someone in the act of doing something, like handing you something you dropped.
"arigato gozaimashita" is for thanking someone after the fact, and is used more often than the -masu ending, like when you're leaving a restaurant after eating there.

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Originally Posted by Winged Dancer

Do yourself a favor and, when you're in Japan, don't talk to the Japanese as you've learned from anime or you scare them wih your rudeness.

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I've heard that the Japanese appreciate your efforts to learn their language, so shouldn't they be a little forgiving if you mistakenly use the wrong (rude) forms of words? I mean, it's not hard for them to tell that you don't have a strong grasp of their language.

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Originally Posted by Winged Dancer

"Boku" is for men and is polite, therefore safe to use.

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I thought boku was only used by boys and young men.

Although I guess that could encompass most people here...

Here's the 2nd person pronouns:

You:
Anata (female, unisex)
Kimi (male speaking, doesn't matter the gender of the subject spoken to)
Omae (rude, boastful)

"Boku" is basically polite. It's most commonly used by young boys but also by grown men when talking with people they don't know or don't feel wholly comfortable with.

For instance, when I was in Japan, my homestay-father used "Ore" when talking with homestay-mother, but when he was talking to me he would use "Boku."
My homestay-brother, instead, use "Ore" all the time, but that was because he was five years old. Once he enters grade school he'll be taught to use either "Boku" or "watashi" when talking with his teachers or senpai.

Like "Ore", "Omae" is not neccesarily rude, just means that there's a certain closeness between the speaker and the listener. So you can use "omae" for your friends, no problem, but not with your boss.

"Kimi" is a little complex.... in J-Music it's used all the time, but in everyday society it's only used when the speaker is in a higher social position than the listener. So for instance, the boss may call his underlings by "kimi", or maybe the teacher will call his students like that. It's also sometimes used between female friends, but even that is stranger....

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

I've heard that the Japanese appreciate your efforts to learn their language, so shouldn't they be a little forgiving if you mistakenly use the wrong (rude) forms of words? I mean, it's not hard for them to tell that you don't have a strong grasp of their language.

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Yes, they won't get angry - or at least they won't show it - but you won't make a good impression either, or, like the waiter in your first post, they'll back away and stop all attempts at communication. Keep in mind that the average Japanese doesn't really know English and they're almost scared of foreigners, so sometimes, even if you speak in correct, polite Japanese, there's a chance you'll be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Winged Dancer

"Kimi" is a little complex.... in J-Music it's used all the time, but in everyday society it's only used when the speaker is in a higher social position than the listener. So for instance, the boss may call his underlings by "kimi", or maybe the teacher will call his students like that.

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Cool, I didn't know about the social order part of the use of kimi. I'll stick with "omae". Just kidding :p .

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Originally Posted by Winged Dancer

Yes, they won't get angry - or at least they won't show it - but you won't make a good impression either, or, like the waiter in your first post, they'll back away and stop all attempts at communication. Keep in mind that the average Japanese doesn't really know English and they're almost scared of foreigners, so sometimes, even if you speak in correct, polite Japanese, there's a chance you'll be ignored.

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What about the 6 years of required English classes in high school? I'd figure they'd have some comprehension or aptitude at the language given that.
As for the waiter guy, he did back off, but was still a good host and attended to my requests, so I was lucky he didn't take my rudeness too badly. The restaurant has this house plum sake that is amazing, and they honored my request for a second glass, though they normally only provide one glass per meal. I guess they decided to appease this brash foreigner :D .

This is also a prefect thread to explain the Honorific post-fixes heard in anime as well. Basically the correct use of titles is considered very important in Japan. Calling somebody by just their name, without adding a title, is called "yobisute" literally "call and throw away", and is considered very bad manners unless the person has given you permission.

Although titles are usually added to names, there are some exceptions to this. They are not usually used when talking about a family member, or another member of one's "in-group", to someone from outside the group.

Inside a group such as a company, the members use titles such as "san" towards each other. However, when talking to people from outside their company, they do not use the titles when referring to each other. This applies even to superiors. For example, the receptionist, when talking to the company president, will certainly use a title such as Maeda-sama. However, when referring to the president when talking to outsiders, the same receptionist will simply refer to Maeda, without any title. Honorific titles are also usually dropped when referring to historical figures, although awarded titles, such as military titles, are sometimes used.

"San"

San is the most common honorific title, used when addressing most social outsiders, for example, non-family members as it implys a kind of familiarity. San is applied to some kinds of foods and animals. For example, fish used for cooking are sometimes referred to as sakana-san a rabbit might be usagi-san.San is also used when talking about entities such as companies. For example, the offices or shop of a company called Kojima denki might be referred to as "Kojima Denki-san" by another nearby company.

San is often translated as "Mr.", "Ms.", "Mrs.", and the like. San may also be used in combination with things other than the name of the person being addressed. For example, a bookseller might be addressed as honya-san "Mr. Bookseller", and a butcher as nikuya-san "Ms. Butcher".

The more formal equivalent is sama, In formal speech, the title "shi" however may be preferred.

"Kun"

Kun is an informal and intimate honorific primarily used for males. It is used by superiors in addressing inferiors, by males of roughly the same age and status in addressing each other, and in addressing male children. In business settings young women may also be addressed as kun by older male superiors.

Schoolteachers typically address male students using kun, while female students are addressed as san or chan. The use of kun to address male children is similar to san when addressing the boy's parents. Not using kun would be considered rude, but, like san for one's own family, kun is traditionally not used when addressing one's own children.

"Chan"

Chan is the informal, intimate, diminutive equivalent of san, used to refer to children and female family members, close friends and lovers. Chan is also used for adults as a title of affection. For example, Arnold Schwarzenegger gained the nickname Shuwa chan in Japanese. Similar to kun, chan is not necessarily optional when referring to the female children of others, and it is often avoided when referring to one's own children.

Chan is sometimes applied to male children if the name does not fit with the kun suffix. For example, a boy called "Tetsuya" will be nicknamed "Tetchan" rather than "Tekkun" for reasons more to do with phonetics than anything else.

In the same way that chan is a version of san, there is also chama from sama, typically used for an older person.

"Senpai"

Senpai is used by students to refer to or address senior students in an academic or other learning environment, or in athletics and sports clubs, and also in business settings to refer to those in more senior positions.

"Sensei"

Sensei is used to refer to or address teachers, practitioners of a profession such as doctors and lawyers, politicians, and other authority figures. It is used to show respect to someone who has achieved a certain level of mastery in an art form or some other skill. For example, Japanese manga fans refer to manga artists using the term sensei, as in Takahashi sensei for manga artist Rumiko Takahashi; the term is used similarly by fans of other creative professionals such as novelists, musicians, and artists. It is also a common martial arts title when referring to the instructor. Japanese speakers will also use the term sarcastically to ridicule overblown people.

"Sama"

Sama is the formal version of san. This honorific is used primarily in addressing persons much higher in rank than oneself, and in commercial and business settings to address and refer to customers. It also forms parts of set phrases such as okyaku-sama (customer) or omachidM-sama ("I am sorry to keep you waiting"). Sama also follows the addressee's name on postal packages and letters.Sama is also used in an arrogant context, as in the arrogant male pronoun ore-sama, "my esteemed self", meaning "I".

"Shi"

Shi is used in formal writing, and sometimes in very polite speech, for referring to a person who is unfamiliar to the speaker, typically a person who the speaker has never met. For example, the shi title is common in the speech of newsreaders. It is preferred in legal documents, academic journals, and certain other formal written styles because of the familiarity which "san" or "sama" imply. Once a person's name has been used with shi, the person can be referred to with shi alone, without the name, as long as there is only one person being referred to.

That should clear that part up, although WD may have to correct me

Wow, that's a lot to absorb and study on.

So early on in Naruto, when team 7 is first formed, when Naruto calls Sakura "Sakura-chan" and when Sakura calls Sasuke "Sasuke-kun", are they rudely assuming a familiarity and closeness that may not exist (ie I doubt Sasuke feels as close to Sakura as she does to him) or is it perfectly acceptable to be this informal with each other even at that point in their relationship?

They were a moment earlier normal classmates, so against my better knowledge I would say that's normal (as classmates call each others using those honorifics). Somehow I'd feel it strange, if they called each others kuns and chans the previous day and right after graduation the next day started to use sans inside the group of old classmates just because they aren't sitting in the classroom anymore but roaming the lands as chinobi.

Well, I say this against my better knowledge, since I don't have real knowledge...

Actually, what Kraco explaines is all pretty correct except for "shi", and mostly because "shi" isn't very used... it's somewhat archaic.

Shi - 師

Literally means "Master", not as a social rank but as someone who has mastered a certain skill. It could be translated (liberally) as a PhD, but "shi" doesn't imply the college years that a PhD does.
It's sometimes used (as far as I know) for high-ranking martial artists and people who dedicate to traditional arts such as the Tea Ceremony, but even those might be perfectly happy being called "Sensei" or "Oo-sensei" - literally "The Great Teacher"; the highest ranked amongst the profesors.

Regarding English.... I don't know. I know they take English lessons most of their life, but they still suck at it. Only College students are decent, and even then it depends on what they're studying.

In defense of them, I took English during all of grade school and highschool, and didn't learn a thing. Nobody learns anything at highschool :p

(How did I learn English then, you ask? Reading. With a dictionary.)

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Originally Posted by Animeniax

English and Japanese are such fundamentally different languages that it's no shame in not being able to master one if you only know the other. It's just that the Japanese are proud of their humility and thus even if they can speak English, they won't both to 1) keep from making a mistake and looking foolish and 2) not be too boastful of their ability.

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I don't know the mechanics of the japanese language, but I do think it is a much more beautiful sounding language than english.

I don't know about that, Mizuchi. English is the best sounding language I've ever heard and it's not even my first language.

In terms of dialect, Japanese and Chinese are very similar, as well as most other oriental dialects, so maybe that's why I'm not as appreciative of it as others here.

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Originally Posted by Mizuchi

I don't know the mechanics of the japanese language, but I do think it is a much more beautiful sounding language than english.

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Why, I beg to differ! As a spanish speaker studying English Literature I can safely say that there are few languages as beautiful and flexible as English. The way pronunciation varies from word to word, the way the accents modify the rhymes... no, no, English is wonderful.

Of course, I love my Japanese, too. Above all, Japanese sounds happy. Just like German sounds as if you were angry 24/7 and Italian sounds as though you were singing, Japanese is just the happiest language on earth.

English is also the most practical language out there, IMO.

At the moment yes it is. Since most of the world speaks it as a second languange. Also, it isn't going to become a dead language like French will soon be.

I meant it's very versatile. It's good for pretty much everything, from technical documents to casual speech.

And then there's the ubiquitousness of it-- with hundreds of dialects and accents, it's the only language I know of where you can get your meaning across unless you have absolutely no knowledge of mechanics. And I mean ABSOLUTELY NONE. Even spouting out key words works sometimes.

But then, I have no idea about English classes in other countries. How much emphasis do they place on sounding American or English or Australian?

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Originally Posted by Winged Dancer

Actually, what Kraco explaines is all pretty correct except for "shi", and mostly because "shi" isn't very used... it's somewhat archaic.

In defense of them, I took English during all of grade school and highschool, and didn't learn a thing. Nobody learns anything at highschool :p

(How did I learn English then, you ask? Reading. With a dictionary.)

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It was Deadfire that provided the lesson about honorifics, but no big deal.

Your English is great, so you must have learned something in your years of study. I still think it's a lack of confidence in using the language that keeps most Japanese from trying to speak English. Are you one of the many Japanese whose families emigrated to South America in the 1940s?

Let's get back on topic:

Lesson 3 : Curse Words

There's not many of them in the Japanese language, so you'll hear the same ones often:

baka, bakayarou: stupid, idiot
aho: Okinawan version of baka
urusai, urusai na: shut up, be quiet, you're too noisy (so shut up), you're too fussy (so shut up)

You'll see the term "bastard" in subtitles a lot, and the Japanese word sounds like "tim-may". I thought maybe they were saying "kimi" drawn out, like "Yooouuu {bastard}," but I'm not so sure. Can anyone answer this?

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Originally Posted by Bucket

But then, I have no idea about English classes in other countries. How much emphasis do they place on sounding American or English or Australian?

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Back when I was still learning English, they certainly tried to make us sound like English. I don't mind that, and hope they still do, though I've no idea. The only problem is to try to remember to drop the "u"s when coding, since the American empire enforces words without extra "u"s in programming...

To be back on topic, isn't "kisama" often translated as "you bastard", if memory serves? Or something like that. Which always sounds funny to me, considering the -sama ending of that word.

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Originally Posted by Kraco

"kisama"

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Heh, that sounds like "kusamek", which is Arabic for "fuck your mother".

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Originally Posted by Kraco

Back when I was still learning English, they certainly tried to make us sound like English. I don't mind that, and hope they still do, though I've no idea. The only problem is to try to remember to drop the "u"s when coding, since the American empire enforces words without extra "u"s in programming...

To be back on topic, isn't "kisama" often translated as "you bastard", if memory serves? Or something like that. Which always sounds funny to me, considering the -sama ending of that word.

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I looked it up on this one online translator and it shows

kisama = you (vulgar), so it can understandably be translated as "youuuu [bastard]". Someone posted that adding "-sama" is sometimes used sarcastically as an insult, so the -sama root in kisama might have derived from this?

I've also seen "bogey" or something like that used in anime, translated as "fool" or "idiot". Anyone know what that word really is?

There's also "chik-show" or something like that, which is translated as "dammit".

Kuso is another one I've heard a lot in some anime, which is translated as "brat" or "punk" and used when referring to a boy.

http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/japanese.htm

I believe that should cover it.

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Originally Posted by Bucket

http://www.insultmonger.com/swearing/japanese.htm

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Damn, that was a crazy site. There was a long list from my own native language as well, and it contained some I had never heard before... But it looked like quite professional indeed (dunno what kind of people are swearing pros, but anyway).

Japanese and Finnish have a lot in common in how many words sound, and sometimes there are funny things popping up, like with "himo" ("pimp" in English): In Finnish "himo" means "lust"... I guess pimps are the people to contact if you are lustful...